Melee are just so underwhelming

[krimsonrane]

I had to do another pali life. Took it to 30 only to once again realize how underwhelming melee is still. Especially for solo play. I dressed it up nicely too. And I still get my azz handed to me on elite. Forget trying reaper. I'm just going get off this grind of past lives and go back to playing a sorc EK. The difference in survivability, CC, and DPS is astronomical. Playing melee solo is an exercise in futile frustration.

PS: I'm talking about MY experience. No need to plop down videos of your melee doing R10.

[droid327]

I had to do another pali life. Took it to 30 only to once again realize how underwhelming melee is still. Especially for solo play. I dressed it up nicely too. And I still get my azz handed to me on elite. Forget trying reaper. I'm just going get off this grind of past lives and go back to playing a sorc EK. The difference in survivability, CC, and DPS is astronomical. Playing melee solo is an exercise in futile frustration.

PS: I'm talking about MY experience. No need to plop down videos of your melee doing R10.

You have to be doing something very wrong if you have a well-geared paladin and you're struggling in Elite. Like I'm struggling to think how I'd even do it on purpose. My pal basically sleepwalks through LR2 like a buzzsaw

And I'm not saying that to just be like "git gud", but just to point out that you cant blame the class or the melee playstyle if the problem is you're making some fundamental error.

What exactly went wrong when you tried to melee? What was your approach to your paladin?

[slarden]

I had to do another pali life. Took it to 30 only to once again realize how underwhelming melee is still. Especially for solo play. I dressed it up nicely too. And I still get my azz handed to me on elite. Forget trying reaper. I'm just going get off this grind of past lives and go back to playing a sorc EK. The difference in survivability, CC, and DPS is astronomical. Playing melee solo is an exercise in futile frustration.

PS: I'm talking about MY experience. No need to plop down videos of your melee doing R10.

Was this an issue all level ranges or were specific level ranges more problematic?

[Weemadarthur]

You have to be doing something very wrong if you have a well-geared paladin and you're struggling in Elite. Like I'm struggling to think how I'd even do it on purpose. My pal basically sleepwalks through LR2 like a buzzsaw

And I'm not saying that to just be like "git gud", but just to point out that you cant blame the class or the melee playstyle if the problem is you're making some fundamental error.

What exactly went wrong when you tried to melee? What was your approach to your paladin?

I'm sorry to say but I am kind of going to echo the sentiment here.

Considering how many posts you have made on this subject maybe it's time to come to terms with the fact you are just not good at melee. This doesn't mean I think your a bad player or you need to "git gud" but rather that maybe your playstyle just doesn't jell with melee play. Now for reference I have the exact opposite problem. I just can't jell with casters (except for some unknown reason alchemists). It is nothing to do with build or gear but just the fact I am not very good at casters. I can take my Barb into R4 solo and complete in record time but struggle on elite with my Sorc and Cleric. This doesn't mean Sorc or Cleric are underpowered and Barbs are awsome it just means I can play a Barb a lot better than a sorc or cleric. For you the opposite is true and you can play Sorcs better than melee. That doesn't mean Sorcs are awsome and melee sucks. It just means you can play a Sorc better.

Now if you want to supply some info on your build and gear set up I'm sure plenty of people will try and offer advice on what or if anything can be improved. Maybe you are making some fundamental build/gearing mistakes that those that excel at melee will notice and be able to correct. Maybe it's the way you play your character (that will be hard to solve though without being able to see exactly how you play). Maybe just like me with casters you just don't have the affinity with the role of melee. There are a lot of factors in play here rather than just "Casters good, Melee bad!"

[KoobTheProud]

Tips for effective melee play in Elite and R1:

1. Keep your feet moving always.

If you just setup and whack-whack-whack you are going to take a lot more damage than you should. Whack, step to the right, whack, step to the left, whack, back up a step, etc. This is particularly true when you are facing multiple mobs or mobs that use effects that target on launch and do not home.

2. Twitch style fighting is more effective than auto-attacking and going through the sequence of attacks. This is what enables the melee-kite described above. If you have a tank to hold aggro by all means flank your target and set auto-attack. If you are alone or the tank twitch and avoid a lot of the damage.

3. Always have a shield item or effect in play.

No not a shield, an item that provides the shield effect of nullifying magic missiles and similar arcane effects.

4. As you are engaging run serpentine.

By this I mean snake in on the pack in front of you. You will find that when you understand enemy mob movement patterns you can line them up perfectly for whatever your alpha-strike is. Then you start the whack-move pattern and you cut damage dramatically while focusing damage on the mobs closest to you. Fight like an Elf and by Elf I mean Legolas.

5. Prosper.

[Ganak]

Considering how many posts you have made on this subject maybe it's time to come to terms with the fact you are just not good at melee.

Melee is quite a challenging mode to play. I like that it is a challenge...like an advanced mode of DDO...

The solution to OP's frustrations...play hard or normal. Elite or reaper should not be a guaranteed cakewalk.

[Chacka_DDO]

I currently play a Trailblazer staff monk at level 32 and mostly with APs spend in Grandmaster of Flowers.
It is not bad at all but there are certain things who urgently demand to be addressed and I don't even talk about big changes that need serious development time only relatively small changes with the numbers.
But when I see there are certain things that are super obviously wrong so the developers should have addressed it already a long time ago by themself it's a bit frustrating when they don't even go to address it when you tell them that as a player.
But what should surprise me anymore when SSG is not even able to see that we have in DDO 20 heroic class levels (1-20), 10 epic levels (21-30), and thereafter legendary levels (31+)?

Foremost the tactical feats need urgently a rebalance (less cooldown and a modern DC calculation) and I would also debate something similar to the Barbarian Damage Reduction for all melee, which may be included in EDF.

[ChaosBuddha]

i agree melee is underwhelming but if u cant even solo elite something is wrong with ur build

[Axcarth]

I had to do another pali life. Took it to 30 only to once again realize how underwhelming melee is still. Especially for solo play. I dressed it up nicely too. And I still get my azz handed to me on elite. Forget trying reaper. I'm just going get off this grind of past lives and go back to playing a sorc EK. The difference in survivability, CC, and DPS is astronomical. Playing melee solo is an exercise in futile frustration.

PS: I'm talking about MY experience. No need to plop down videos of your melee doing R10.

Yes and No. Melee are facing a complicated underwhleming period at current end game content, YES. As someone said above, it's rather a challenge.
But a well geared Pala should be more than ok at elite-r1 lvling route, so, NO. As some other already said before, you can share your build, gear, etc., so we can give you some advices. Or maybe you just dont care and melee builds are not your thing.

[KoobTheProud]

i agree melee is underwhelming but if u cant even solo elite something is wrong with ur build

It might not be the build though. If you take the hits and spells as a melee you can die fast, particularly to champs and packs.

As a ranged or caster it is a lot easier to avoid damage while playing naturally. As a melee you have to generate that type of variance in incoming damage.

If you're coming from a game like WoW where there is no way to effectively melee kite due to the way the stack works and distance is calculated then you're more likely to just stand around during melee combat and take a lot of damage.

DDO is a different game though. It's a movement-favored game in which every strike has a chance to interact with every target on the appropriate vector within the effective distance of the strike. The corresponding reality is that strikes have no chance to interact with targets no longer in the appropriate vector or effective distance of the strike.

This means that you can fire missiles along a vector in which you know targets exist and then run into the area you fired into and find dead targets there. You can test this out easily in the Gianthold wilderness. Just pick a spawn that you know exists and fire at them from outside of rendering range. You will likely be rewarded by increments of the kill count for that type and/or named kill indicators. Then you run up and indeed Chieftain Ogh is dead right where you thought he was going to be.

For melee and melee combat the implications are staggering. You can avoid maybe 80%+ of the damage you would normally take in a face-to-face showdown by just continually moving in ways that invalidate the oppositions strikes, either by facing or distance. You can do this within the normal constraints of the combat system without exploitation of anything other than your ability to manually dodge in combat. You're not dodging their strikes as much as setting them up to fail repeatedly by knowing that their next strike is going to be at a location you are no longer at.

There are ways built-in to the game system to manufacture a miss even when you are standing still, primarily by armor class, a random dodge chance on each strike and by both concealment and incorporeality. However when you add active evasion to your tactics you create a defense that has only small chances to take damage. Add in a high fortification and your chances to take a big hit go to practically speaking zero.

This doesn't just stop melee damage. Some of the biggest melee killers are the ray spells that do heavy damage in a single shot. However they do not auto-target or home. They fire off just like any other ability and if you made a 60 degree shift in front of the ray caster there is a very good chance that ray flies right by you without doing any damage at all.

What I'm trying to say with all of this is that many of the misperceptions of melee vs ranged vs caster are based on myths that have nothing to do with how DDO functions. They have a lot to do with how other MMO's and prior experience condition people to play as a melee.

[blarhblarhblarh]

I wonder how many posts with the same thing OP will do without providing any useful information for people who are actually trying to help him. I just rather quit.

[slarden]

Tips for effective melee play in Elite and R1:

1. Keep your feet moving always.

If you just setup and whack-whack-whack you are going to take a lot more damage than you should. Whack, step to the right, whack, step to the left, whack, back up a step, etc. This is particularly true when you are facing multiple mobs or mobs that use effects that target on launch and do not home.

2. Twitch style fighting is more effective than auto-attacking and going through the sequence of attacks. This is what enables the melee-kite described above. If you have a tank to hold aggro by all means flank your target and set auto-attack. If you are alone or the tank twitch and avoid a lot of the damage.

3. Always have a shield item or effect in play.

No not a shield, an item that provides the shield effect of nullifying magic missiles and similar arcane effects.

4. As you are engaging run serpentine.

By this I mean snake in on the pack in front of you. You will find that when you understand enemy mob movement patterns you can line them up perfectly for whatever your alpha-strike is. Then you start the whack-move pattern and you cut damage dramatically while focusing damage on the mobs closest to you. Fight like an Elf and by Elf I mean Legolas.

5. Prosper.

These are great thoughts. All my characters have 4x korthos shield clicky gloves and I haven't bothered to replace them on most characters even though there are better options now.

In terms of clearing mobs solo, group them up and let cleaves and strike through do the rest. Swinging a sword with strikethrough is effective, exalting and avenging cleave ones shots alot of mobs on R1 and holy retribution is the nuclear option with a really good cooldown. I always keep moving while attacking which reduces incoming damage.

Max out your hamp including mysterious cloak which scales better than other items at the same level. Take the 60hamp in tier 4 and 5 for sure.

Unyielding sovereignty is your get out of jail free card and bypasses reaper healing penalties including plague reaper debuff.

If you are soloing consider wearing illusion focused cc goggles and using greater color spray. It's enough at heroic levels and even many epic quests if you are maxing out char to use cha to-hit and damage, but requires the feydark illusionist tree. You don't need to worry about feats or set bonuses supporting dc.

And of course the best solo self-healing paladin option in the game is bladeforged, but it requires a little more of a gearing requirement.

Dual boxes are not for everyone, but a buffing bard dual box with a good devotion and sustaining song is much more impactful than a hireling cleric if you ever wanted to try it and see how you liked it. I just mention it because of how much I like it.

[Buddha5440]

I had to do another pali life. Took it to 30 only to once again realize how underwhelming melee is still. Especially for solo play. I dressed it up nicely too. And I still get my azz handed to me on elite. Forget trying reaper. I'm just going get off this grind of past lives and go back to playing a sorc EK. The difference in survivability, CC, and DPS is astronomical. Playing melee solo is an exercise in futile frustration.

PS: I'm talking about MY experience. No need to plop down videos of your melee doing R10.

Welcome to D&D Melees have always been strong early but when casters (both arcane and divine) reach their stride in higher levels, they are basically GODS. Kind of why most of the notable characters in the D&D universe are Arch-mages, Arch-druids, or Bishops and such. All the good melees died protecting them while they were still weak and they never bothered to resurrect them or use a Wish to bring them back.

Seriously though, if you are having trouble soloing a Paladin...you may want to look at you build/play-style. More information about your build might help us give more directed advice

[Waveman]

This was a helpful thread to read. I need to try these movement tactics. Thank you, all.

[Annex]

You should all help Krimsonrane by posting your super awesome level 30 Paladin equipment layouts.

[axel15810]

i agree melee is underwhelming but if u cant even solo elite something is wrong with ur build

Really depends on what quest/level range. Big difference between Elite Korthos and Elite Legendary Sharn. Game generally gets harder on elite the higher a level you get.

[thedip]

I am runnng a bladeforged pally/arti to get my last pally life and tend to run solo. I am not the best of players and my reactions are not as fast as they once were - but I am having a blast. I ran all epics on elite up to lvl 30, but I have dropped down to hard to run IoD for the first time and it seems like easy mode.

I am not sure what EDs you are using but after some experimentation, my main ED is Fury of the Wild and secondary ED is Legendary Dreadnought. The FotW increases my damage output considerably and the LD gives me dire charge to get into combat quickly.

I am sure that someone will say that I am crazy and should be running one of the divine EDs, but I am having great fun with FotW.

[Lorianna]

I've been tinkering with my drow paladin to figure out what would work best for her as far as finding a balance between kill speed and safety. So far, going primal avatar with the heart path has been really solid for soloing on EE. Having two hirelings with me (the satyr and the raptor), the primal shroud is shared with them, so they're proccing a few thousand extra damage every other hit or so, which helps out immensely. A lot of times I'll do what people suggest NOT to do in this thread, which is just stand and facetank groups of mobs. My paladin is sword+shield, using a bastard sword and shield mastery, so she's pretty tanky (300ish physical mitigation), and can still kill mobs in a reasonable time. Certainly not as fast as my casters, but I don't feel too much like she's just painfully slogging anymore.

[Weemadarthur]

You should all help Krimsonrane by posting your super awesome level 30 Paladin equipment layouts.

Sorry if this seems a little trite or a bit of a cop out but giving Krimson my gear layout won't necessarily help. If you ask 30 different players for a build and gear layout for a Palli you will likely get 30 different answers. Gear and build can be intrinsically linked and what is good for one build could be pretty bad for another. There is then the aspect of gear farming itself. What I think is a very easy gear-set to farm could be nigh on impossible for someone else. By contrast someone elses easy to farm gear-set could be nigh on impossible for me.

Now if Krimson wants to give some details on his build and what he expects it to achieve I would be happy to offer suggestions based around that info. Without any clue as to what type of palli he is trying to build, gear and play though any suggestions anyone made could quite easily make things worse rather than better.

[Weemadarthur]

Foremost the tactical feats need urgently a rebalance (less cooldown and a modern DC calculation) and I would also debate something similar to the Barbarian Damage Reduction for all melee, which may be included in EDF.

Just for novelty value I 100% agree with this. At the very least re-do the DC calculations to incorporate other stats (it doesn't have to be all but at least give some variations) and change all current DR bonuses to a % like Barb DR.