DDO's Axis of Potential Play and Why it is Bad

[KoobTheProud]

The problem with DDO right now is that SSG chose to extend the wrong axis of potential play for all players.

Along about 2015 they had a problem with the existing player base burning out on a few basic repetitive grinds. They had heroic lives and epic lives as the main grinds and the dedicated player base was ripping through those fairly quickly. Iconic lives were also being expended by the people who really wanted to grind for endgame. The answer from the viewpoint of the devs was to add more grinds for the players who wanted to grind alongside periodic content releases, especially high level raids, for those players who wanted a brief endgame experience and validation of all the grinding before diving back into the grind.

For most people the effect of the choice that SSG made was to sideline alts and work on their main, with maybe one alt as a change-of-pace left at cap to do the raids. The meta shifted endlessly with power builds promoted in a mostly pay-to-acquire mode. For the grinders the power builds created an even faster-pace of power accumulation. The ceiling moved progressively upwards and people who were not power grinders and who had less time to play were gradually marginalized in terms of keeping up with the grind.

One of the problems with the endless grind meta was that people wanted more power and a faster pace of leveling to make the grind seem both worthwhile and productive. Enter Reaper mode which provided both power creep in the form of additional health points not available in any other way and also a faster pace of grind through the existing processes.

This produced an inevitable split in the player base, with less dedicated players continuing to grind along the pre-existing pathways while the dedicated daily players switched to Reaper mode and began that grind. New players got caught in the crossfire as there were far fewer LFG's for non-Reaper groups and the new mode was not new player friendly at all. The grind became really oppressive at this point for most players.
Then SSG added racial past lives and completed the transition to a Methuselah meta. There were so many potential past lives at this point which cumulatively added so much power that a new or more casual player could not even find a reasonable pathway to a "complete" build.

Then items were nerfed across the board, leading to a significant power loss for players who were not grinding hard. Then Epic Destinies were reworked adding another grind and rewarding players who had many Epic past lives in the process.
At this point the game is no longer approachable as a new player or a player with less hours to play. There is no reset point with each expansion. There is no reason to begin an endless grind. All the potential of the game, which is considerable, is wasted except from the standpoint of a dedicated player who is already well advanced in the grind.

So let me explain why I think the axis of potential play was the key element in moving DDO forward and maintaining it as a viable game for the average player and specifically the new or casual player.
If SSG had chosen to extend the game horizontally instead of vertically they would have taken all the assets they put into the new systems, of which there have been many, and instead devoted them strictly to new content. That content would have been in the form of new quests, expansions, raids, classes, enhancement trees, iconic characters. There would have been new stuff to do on a quarterly basis. Much of the new stuff would have been gated behind the store, paid expansions or VIP access.

Content would have gotten gradually harder as new content was added. This would have been a necessary addition to the game to keep veteran players interested as their gear improved quarterly. Most of the difference could have been in raids and specific gateway quests into those raids. Nobody complains when new gear and content is added. That's a healthy addition to a game that does not discriminate against newer and more casual players. It is not as easily attainable by those groups but they have a pathway to gain it without dedicating their lives to the game.

A new player looking at the game right now would see a game stretching to the horizons instead of to the heavens. There would be a pathway for them to join and prosper. Much of the horizontal content would be optional as the newer content packs, expansions, enhancement trees and classes would be more powerful than older content. There would be great incentive to purchase the last few expansions and the content released around them to get as near the power curve as possible.

This would have been the DDO that had relevance to all but the most dedicated players. It's the DDO that would have a fighting chance at growth over time instead of inevitable decline.
Just as a side note: you've got your dedicated players as an almost captive audience for various reasons. They are not the people you should be spending most of your time on retaining. It's the newer more casual players who would normally vastly outnumber your dedicated base that you should be spending time on.

I spend much less time and money on DDO than I used too. I have very little incentive to change that pattern at this point. The content for the most part is worn out for me. The ceiling is *much* too high to seriously contemplate grinding towards in a 15 year old game. By much too high I mean the thought of grinding that much is nauseating in the extreme. I spend time in multiple games and none of them have put this kind of grind in front of the player base. That's why I spend my time and money there instead of in DDO.

[Oxarhamar]

Reaper was added because of forum complaints the game was too easy

Adding a power grind wasn’t necessary but that’s how they chose to go about it

Better the game has these types of grinding that the raid item grind that other mmos have

[ekaterina]

I am as familiar as most of us with various types of MMO grinds and timesinks.

Most MMOs have the main grind at level-cap either to get gear and then for tiny upgrades to that gear - or to get some form of alternate advancement points for tiny increases in character ability.

Our grind seems to be running new lives over and over to get past life enhancements, reaper enhancements, iconic enhancements, racial enhancements and so forth.

I do not see that our grind is any worse than other MMOs and in some ways it may be better. We play levels 1-20 or 15-30 or 20-30 over and over instead of all grinding at level 140 (LOTRO) or other maximum level. I find this less repetitive and mind numbing than running 1-5 raids or dungeons over and over and over and over. It also means new players can find experienced players running things at the new player level - not that the new player can actually contribute much but its better than all experienced players being over 100 levels higher.

We also can run any character as a different class or race quite easily. Thus we need not camp a "main" and run alts that we may not really have much use for in order to try new classes and races.

Some say with good reason that the game is not as alt friendly as it might be. Very true. But neither is it alt friendly to have to get an alt to 140 to even begin gearing up for "endgame". Not alt friendly is a common complaint in many if not nearly all MMOs it isn't even remotely unique to us.

[Coffey]

The problem with DDO right now is that SSG chose to extend the wrong axis of potential play for all players.

So let me explain why I think the axis of potential play was the key element in moving DDO forward and maintaining it as a viable game for the average player and specifically the new or casual player.
If SSG had chosen to extend the game horizontally instead of vertically they would have taken all the assets they put into the new systems, of which there have been many, and instead devoted them strictly to new content. That content would have been in the form of new quests, expansions, raids, classes, enhancement trees, iconic characters. There would have been new stuff to do on a quarterly basis. Much of the new stuff would have been gated behind the store, paid expansions or VIP access.

I spend much less time and money on DDO than I used too. I have very little incentive to change that pattern at this point. The content for the most part is worn out for me. The ceiling is *much* too high to seriously contemplate grinding towards in a 15 year old game. By much too high I mean the thought of grinding that much is nauseating in the extreme. I spend time in multiple games and none of them have put this kind of grind in front of the player base. That's why I spend my time and money there instead of in DDO.

Thanks for reiterating the history of how we have arrived at this current state of divide.

The next DDO will hopefully develop in a horizontal design as you have said. Continuous new content that also has an extreme randomness in design for unlimited replay ability.

No more grind for levels or lust for individual character power.

Maybe people will see this type of game in the Metaverse. I wont be joining that willingly though

[Coffey]

Video about what the Metaverse actually is for anyone interested:

https://www.rokfin.com/stream/19451/...umanist-Agenda

[C-Dog]

The problem with DDO right now is that SSG chose to extend the wrong axis of potential play for all players...

For most people the effect of the choice that SSG made was to sideline alts and work on their main, with maybe one alt as a change-of-pace left at cap to do the raids...

I have to wonder if the endless attempts (and cries from the population!) to "balance" all the classes and builds didn't contribute to this.

When I joined (about a dozen years ago), some classes/builds could do A, some could do B, some had C covered, but it was a rare and creative build that could squeeze in 2 of those (and then only at a cost to each), much less A+B+C. So, the desire to have "alts" to cover different roles for different reasons was justified by a very real need for same.

Now, many builds can do everything, or enough of it so they just don't care about the rest. Less need for diversity in your stable if you can have one that "covers it all" (or close enough). :/

[Annex]

/signed for multiplying new quest output by a factor of 10.

[slarden]

Only SSG has the data, but I assume their main revenue sources are

1) High spender consumables (boxes, etc.)
2) VIP
3) XPacs
4) Point purchases from non-whales

I am not sure how many people still have VIP, the only real value is the stacking XP. Most content is buried behind the xpac paywall as is a certain amount of power - the latest gear, the ability to keep racial completionist, etc.

Based on SSG's priorities I assume #1 is the largest source of revenue.

If they are maximizing revenue this way, it's hard to say they are wrong.

[Marshal_Lannes]

In my opinion, Reaper mode saved DDO. Hardcore gave it another boost. All of the new player issues can easily be solved by implementing a catch-up mechanic. Overall, I think progression has been reasonable although racial TRs could have been reversed (racial point first, ability second, skill point third) for greater accessibility to the casual players.

[Eantarus]

In my opinion, Reaper mode saved DDO.

My opinion is its the exact opposite: reaper dramatically sped up the game's eventual demise.

MMOs die if they fail to attract new players. In other MMOs the player-base is at cap, as the game ages and the population shrinks, new players find the initial experience extremely lonely, with much of the content completely inaccessible.

Pre-MOTU DDO was had a very good shtick for attracting new players: TR. The established player-base kept TRing, ensuring there was a constant stream of experienced players at all levels to help guide and encourage newbs. Back then Elite was still "easy enough for green players in a group to join and contribute(and if they did die, it was usually due to inexperience - not lack of power).

Then came MOTU, epics, EDs, and ETR. Not such a big problem because there were still a lot of players TRing through heroics.

Enter Reaper.

Now, the experienced players are playing exclusively on R1+(and despite what people claim: yes, there is a huge difference between Elite and R1 if you are a brand new player). Most are playing at even higher skulls. This leaves the new players to solo, miss content, and eventually learn just how far they will have to grind to reach the same levels as the experienced players.

So, no. Reaper did not save DDO, rather it put the final nail in DDO's coffin.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Reaper mode has been around what, 5-6 years? That's a really long nail.

Any difficulty (new or alt) players have in dealing with R1+ content can easily be mitigated by a catch-up mechanic that provides X number of past lives/reaper points they can distribute as they wish. DDO, at this point and in this form, is never going to be a huge game but it does have a small dedicated community that makes the game profitable and continues to be active enough that a steady stream of expansions and content comes out. One might say why upset the cart if this is the case? If a catch-up mechanic were to be implemented then it would work best if done hand in hand with a marketing campaign designed to attract new players.

[Eantarus]

Reaper mode has been around what, 5-6 years? That's a really long nail.

5 years. And It took about 2 before it became the dominant mode. How many people do you know of who started in the last 3 years and have stuck with the game? Personally, I know a big fat 0, meanwhile I know 8 people who have quite since then.

Any difficulty (new or alt) players have in dealing with R1+ content can easily be mitigated by a catch-up mechanic.

A catchup mechanic would be awesome. You wanna help convince SSG to add one?

[Marshal_Lannes]

A catchup mechanic would be awesome. You wanna help convince SSG to add one?

I mention it quite often. They have yet to take me up on the idea...

[blarhblarhblarh]

Agree. Just think that this week we will be sure if update 50 and 51 were a waste of manpower of if it actually added any fun to DDO. So far the "solution" for the horizontal level increase was the same that the designer bashed about old designer that he said on many youtubers channels something like it: he did not feel the game progressing in epic levels so now we must redone all EDs per life, so this added more bureaucracy to epic leveling and more time spent out of questing.

So the decision to level up to 32 only once is the same the designer bashed before to having to fill the old EDs up only once.


To me the worse is: my toon had worse numbers after I finished racials than I had when I started it. So I finish an huge grind with tons of boring races thinking it will be worth at endgame but my toon is weaker. My DCs where lowered by 16. Atributes also. Even my silver longbow got nerfed and dude, this item is from the era that cap was 10. So far I haven´t seen what I want to see in DDO:

- Quality of life changes.
- Better bank.
- Faster reincarnation
- all classes working from lvl 1-30
- all spells scaling from 1-30.

And what do I think we got?

A number nerf followed by a small number increase. If I lost 16 DC raising my DC in 2 only makes me feel that I lost 14 DC, not that I actually won anything.

If they had increased epic past lifes and leaved the cap at 30 it would be fine. While they work in the QOL changes and we wait until everything is working to step foward. Feywild and Saltsmarsh quests still have bugs that won´t let us finish them and this is really frustrating specially for R10 players.

[Weemadarthur]

5 years. And It took about 2 before it became the dominant mode. How many people do you know of who started in the last 3 years and have stuck with the game? Personally, I know a big fat 0, meanwhile I know 8 people who have quite since then.

Now I don't have exact figures here so please take into account these are just rough numbers and across 2 servers but I have met over 100 new or returning players over the last 3 years of which about 20 or so are still playing. Now I also know about 30 long term players who have left in that same time (most within the last year). The simple fact is though that none of those that are no longer playing left directly because of reaper.

Now I don't like how reaper was implemented at all and agree that it was a bad design decision. Reaper difficulty itself I think was needed I just disagree with adding a power tree to go alongside it which negated most of what it was supposed to bring to the table. Personal feelings aside though reaper did renew interest in the game for a lot of players and has undoubtedly brought in a lot of revenue. I fully expect that the amount of players who have left because of reaper will probably be equaled by the amount that stayed because of reaper. Reaper itself isn't a good argument to use for player attrition and is at best a strawman argument that takes attention away from the actual reasons that the game keeps losing players.

[LightBear]

In my opinion, Reaper mode saved DDO. Hardcore gave it another boost. All of the new player issues can easily be solved by implementing a catch-up mechanic. Overall, I think progression has been reasonable although racial TRs could have been reversed (racial point first, ability second, skill point third) for greater accessibility to the casual players.

And the catchup mechanic is going to be new levels and eventually a new tr system.
The new levels will give access to new items that are going to be just as powerful as some of the old stuff where you had to do a lot of grinds.
Then after that a new grind system is going to be introduced where we can spend the next 3 to 5 years working for completion.

And rinse repeat.

[Karthunk]

Now, the experienced players are playing exclusively on R1+(and despite what people claim: yes, there is a huge difference between Elite and R1 if you are a brand new player). Most are playing at even higher skulls. This leaves the new players to solo, miss content, and eventually learn just how far they will have to grind to reach the same levels as the experienced players.

"Most" players that are playing at high skulls are not in the group finder, they have: static groups, guilds, or friends that can handle it.

The NPCs were nerfed. R1 now feels like the elite of a few years ago.

[LightBear]

"Most" players that are playing at high skulls are not in the group finder, they have: static groups, guilds, or friends that can handle it.

The NPCs were nerfed. R1 now feels like the elite of a few years ago.

That's just because we have more reaper points to make up for the difference.

Btw, this whole thread is a not existing issue as it makes assumptions based on the OPs own biases.

[adamkatt]

Ohhh nice wall of text. I dont see any problems with ddo.. well except the ladder bug!

[Cantor]

Just a nitpick on the OP. The epic destiny change weakened the effect of past lives, not increased rewards. Twists were stronger. The new one still rewards... but come on, 5 skills from any tree with half of them high tier vs. A few points that mostly get trash abilities to unlock what you want...