Why Melee is hard to balance in any MMO

[Bjond]

Melee is not hard to balance, but many MMOs struggle with it. Why they struggle is very simple and has nothing to do with DPS v Mitigation v Agro and everything to do with Developer mindset.

All MMO developer teams have two gauges for what makes up a tank: how much DPS it can do before they think of it as a DPS and how much damage it can take before they think of it as a tank. Permitting anything to cross those lines is abhorrent -- they'll often consider crazy changes to keep those lines "safe".

In DDO, the DPS gauge for tanks is lower than any other MMO I've ever played. It's basically zero. If a tank in our raids gets a kill, he makes fun of the entire raid.

The mitigation gauge is similarly pegged in DDO. If you're living through two hits as DPS, you're stealing the tank's show here.

In most MMO's, a tank does about 60~80% of the DPS of a DPS-focused character. They usually solo amazingly well, often much better than pure DPS. They are still not played as often because tanks are seen as leaders and most players just want to have fun without responsibility for other's fun.

Same thing for DPS playing as a tank. Usually they can, but not at the highest levels and not without extra effort. In DDO, this is almost impossible -- can be done, but it's v.rare and the healing effort required is pretty extreme (eg. spam healing).

So, you want to balance melee in DDO? The first step is to adjust those dials. You have them pegged at extremes that are making balance impossible. I think you'll find that trinity play will GREATLY increase when tanks can do enough dps to solo simply because that's the major reason I hear for people not liking to play them in DDO.

BTW, adjusting those little cultural bias dials on tank v DPS will not be easy. The only MMOs I've seen make even a slight adaptation there was FFXI (for blink tanks) and EQ1 (for monk FD pulling & tanking).

[Eantarus]

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

[adamkatt]

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

tanks only needed recently.. in reaper a tank is almost always useful to keep the squishys alive..

Also Voodu tank build post was started in 2015. so hes been using tank builds a lot more often then """recently"" seeing as that build is 7 years old...

Hey maybe im just completely wrong and something recent is more like 10 years to some.

[blarhblarhblarh]

DDO have a great thing that no other MMO have: decades of Pen aNd Paper rules. When in doubt I think those rules should be taken in consideration because they are field tested for millions of players worldwide.

Ok, others mmos had different solutions and DDO is online. But still finding solution on PNP is something others mmos don´t do because they can´t. Also most fantasy games have some more or less D&D influence. In doubt 3.5 D&D should be used. Then other D&D rules. Then any creation from the developers. DDO must always become more D&Dish. Not less D&D in every change.

Two details here: One is about PRR on a game that already have DR. The other is Armor class and spells that don´t scale on epics. Both things that needed some attention before thinking about the melee pass. Why I say it? first because I don´t think that melees are weak or need a pass today. Second because the next elephant in the room will be the Dodge bypass mobs that will add one more calculation to a already crowded and laggy system and one more mechanic that don´t add any fun to the game. But once they put this on DDO it will be forever bringing more problems than solutions to players.

So... they have a good amount of things on their plate right now and we must have a bit of patience. I just hope that the launch goes well and that the pack have good quests. Hope that update 51 was worth the manpower used in it, so far it haven´t. But it´s a good topic of discussion. More than melees I think that tanks needed some more help, as the AC scaling trough epic levels should exist for everyclasses.

[mikarddo]

OP - unless you are talking only about high end reaper raids I think you are incorrect.

I group with players on "tanky dps builds" often. We are talking melee builds/players that tank 2 Dooms at a time on R10 yet still get a decent number of kills. So, as far as I am concerned your entire assertion that its not possible to play a tanky dps build in DDO is incorrect wrt. quests. Reaper raids are an entirely different matter though.

[Strider1963]

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo. made things much easier. Of course, those were different days than now. There was no power creep like we have now. Raids always desired 2 dedicated healers, a couple of casters, tank and the rest dps, ranged or melee. Now its just a zergfest with all the bloated stats, enhancement trees and uber equipment.

[Ganak]

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently

Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.


OP has an interesting take, and I'll add that 'dps' in today's game is a glass cannon, with defense (in practice) no greater than ranged/casters/rogue sneak attackers. And it continues to go backwards. Meld was a great 'oh crud' moment defense that helped, and the dodge changes coming after the expansion feel to disproportionally impact melee dps.

[Yamani]

Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.


OP has an interesting take, and I'll add that 'dps' in today's game is a glass cannon, with defense (in practice) no greater than ranged/casters/rogue sneak attackers. And it continues to go backwards. Meld was a great 'oh crud' moment defense that helped, and the dodge changes coming after the expansion feel to disproportionally impact melee dps.

Dodge changes where dropped from Isle. Also yea my early raid tanker I used to run with was a warforged FvS wielding a greatsword(even for ToD).

[Artos_Fabril]

DDO have a great thing that no other MMO have: decades of Pen aNd Paper rules. When in doubt I think those rules should be taken in consideration because they are field tested for millions of players worldwide.

You will not find a tested balance solution for "Tanking" in any PnP official rules supplement.

The decades on PnP rules are the root of the problem, and will not help you to solve it (hence the failed attempts to solve it by tacking on other rules systems, such as PRR/MRR, the current AC vs Attack chart, percentile DR, %dodge)

The easiest way to do it would be to revert to PRR to only taking armor type and BAB (Capped to 25 like it is for attack speed) into account, with monks getting light armor PRR while centered, and medium armor PRR while centered in earth stance. Then rescale everything with the knowledge that top-end PRR pegs at 50% and a light armor melee with full BAB tops out at 25%. I don't know why they thought adding a system where values could fall anywhere between 0 and >600 and then scaling everything to 100/(100+n) % was going to give them a good and easy to balance system in perpetuity, but clearly they were wrong and the inflation of mob damage over time shows how badly imbalanced this system is.

The problem there is, the last time they tried to unwind power creep it did not go well.

[Orangine]

OP - unless you are talking only about high end reaper raids I think you are incorrect.

I group with players on "tanky dps builds" often. We are talking melee builds/players that tank 2 Dooms at a time on R10 yet still get a decent number of kills. So, as far as I am concerned your entire assertion that its not possible to play a tanky dps build in DDO is incorrect wrt. quests. Reaper raids are an entirely different matter though.

How many past lives and RXP do those players have?
Also, can you detail exactly how they mitigate all the damage coming from 2 dooms on R10 while actively doing DPS?

Just because you saw one ripped guy doing it, doesn't mean it's accessible for the average player (AKA the majority of players). The exception should not make the rule.

[Bjond]

How many past lives and RXP do those players have?

I have two characters using similar builds that have done it with 3x HPL, 2xEPL, and 35?'ish RXP (well, reaper points, 'dunno how much RXP that means). All my chars are low-life and low-RXP -- only got 50+ RXP on a couple very recently. Look up Tilo's "Flower" builds for the basic idea.

"Tanking" with these characters is nowhere near what most people think of as tanking. You never EVER just stand and take it while dishing out DPS. It's more a matter of CC, Intimidate, Dodge, and classic lag exploitation (you can make it work in your favor, too). DPS happens when stuff is CC'd.

Doom tanking is only 20s every 120s. If the party doesn't wake up and slaughter them fast enough, I'm giblets. The builds only work as sole tank with ADD healers on crack. Done primary on R10 a couple times at the urging of the healer, but it's best as an Off-Tank past R6.

The real reason it can only off-tank, though, is that DDO's team just can't tolerate a tank doing any DPS or any character tanking without plate + shield. The players certainly don't mind, but just look at the "tank sets" in game -- all plate & shield. Look at MRR & PRR for the armor types. It actually runs counter to D&D.

D&D doesn't care if your AC comes from Light+Dex or from Plate+Shield. It's only DDO that cares.

BTW, defensive mitigation scaling should all be on AC and none of it on BAB to remain true to D&D. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is what's causing the problem.

[Artos_Fabril]

BTW, defensive mitigation scaling should all be on AC and none of it on BAB to remain true to D&D. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is what's causing the problem.

AC is a damage avoidance mechanic and in both PnP and DDO, it only works when incoming damage is lower than max HP. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is a direct response to the ~4 years of >90% of characters wearing robes because armor AC was worthless (and capped out at +13 from any set of +5 full plate) compared to stacking AC from numerous effects, including using getting multiple sources of different amounts of dodge AC, dex, wis, shield AC from non-shield sources, natural armor, etc. But that's from the era of khopesh supremacy and everyone in a raid wearing DT and and Minos.

As every PnP player and most DDO players should know, "remaining true to D&D" is not a recipe for balance, but it does make an acceptable guidestone, because DDO should feel like D&D, not try to replicate its systems verbatim.

[Eantarus]

Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo.

This is what I mean by "niche roles". You needed a tank for some(most?) raids but generally not for day-to-day play(compare to other MMOs where you need the holy trinity to go out and grind trash mobs). Also:

Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.

In those few niche roles virtually any melee could tank. I even tanked a few raids despite having not remotely built around tanking.

Also Voodu tank build post was started in 2015. so hes been using tank builds a lot more often then """recently"" seeing as that build is 7 years old...

Just because someone was making a tank build in 2015 didn't mean tanks were necessary. I'm quite positive that the day DDO released, some long-time EverQuest player signed in, rolled a fighter, then proudly announced to the first party he joined "I'm the tank!" while still a lvl 1.

tanks only needed recently.. in reaper a tank is almost always useful to keep the squishys alive..

Point of order: "useful" and "required" do not mean the same thing. Note this down before you take those SATs.

The introduction of Reaper Difficulty would be the "recently" I am referring to. And yes I know it came out in 2017, but from the introduction it took about two years before the meta shifted to where we are now. So yes it has only been recently that dedicated tanks started to be in demand.

[Bjond]

AC only works when incoming damage is lower than max HP [..] "remaining true to D&D" is not a recipe for balance, but it does make an acceptable guidestone, because DDO should feel like D&D

This is boils it right down to the nub. They could have balanced things out by adding %mitigation to AC and adjusting AC on gear to scale up more with level instead of going counter to D&D by using armor weight. AC can become quite high these days with gear and enhancements stacking it.

AC is the quintessential D&D stat for "less physical damage taken". New stats make the game feel MUCH less D&D.

Reaper Difficulty would be the "recently" [..] only been recently that dedicated tanks started to be in demand.

It's shifting away again very quickly. Caster and ranged DPS is so high that I can "tank" R10 on my rogue. I just intim and CC to group them into a pack and let the blasters go wild. Adrenaline on anything that looks to squirrel out of the killing pack mostly solves the rest.

I think this kind of build is what inspired their dodge-nerf thoughts. I'm not the only one doing it and yeah, it's a heavy dodge build. The thing is, it's not the dodge that makes it possible. It's blaster AE. Any time I have to toe-off with something to tank it, the healer has to slap me silly with their SP bar.

Also, and back on the OP topic: exactly what is wrong with a dodgy melee DPS doing this? It's definitely true to D&D. It's not DPS'ing while tanking. The only weirdness lies completely in developer attitude; ie. it's not a plate, not using a tower shield, and not cowering in place like a turtle (and oh what fun that is to play -- gee, thanks for supporting that style).

[Eantarus]

I think this kind of build is what inspired their dodge-nerf thoughts. I'm not the only one doing it and yeah, it's a heavy dodge build. The thing is, it's not the dodge that makes it possible. It's blaster AE. Any time I have to toe-off with something to tank it, the healer has to slap me silly with their SP bar.

Whats interesting is that several elements of the game prove that they can code "if then else" conditional effects. Take Swashbuckler as the easiest example I can dig out in 22 seconds of searching: "Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor." <--If they can code an effect like that, why not code various bonuses that only apply to melee?

So dodge is too powerful when used by dodge-heavy ranged builds? Ok, nerf it for characters holding a ranged weapon. What we have here is instead a lot like the inquisitive nerf whereby the over-powered elements are left as-is but everyone not abusing them gets punished.

[Discpsycho]

Whats interesting is that several elements of the game prove that they can code "if then else" conditional effects. Take Swashbuckler as the easiest example I can dig out in 22 seconds of searching: "Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor." <--If they can code an effect like that, why not code various bonuses that only apply to melee?

So dodge is too powerful when used by dodge-heavy ranged builds? Ok, nerf it for characters holding a ranged weapon. What we have here is instead a lot like the inquisitive nerf whereby the over-powered elements are left as-is but everyone not abusing them gets punished.

An if/then for ranged works, except possibly for throwers with a melee weapon in the offhand (eg, Celestia as a DR breaker). But casters are the problem here; any ideas how to if/then those while making the bonuses just the right level of appealing?

- Base it on held weapons? Most casters use two weapons anyway, and if the anti-caster benefits are too strong they'll swap a melee weapon or run one full-time
- Base it on armor type? That's the point of ASF and doesn't solve the FvS / Druid issue
- Base it on levels? That discourages hybrids and build options
- Base it on weapon feats? Alchemists / Wizards / Artificers get a bunch of feats and will emerge victorious. If the benefits are good enough, other casters may also dump their feats. Casters aren't as reliant on feats as melee, so veterans who hit DCs without too much difficulty will still get the best of both worlds, especially in heroic
- Base it on skills? Offhand, that would mean penalizing players for taking Spellcraft and Heal, which hurts hybrid specs/classes and monks, and frankly aren't contributing that much anyway

[kuzka111]

butp

[kuzka111]

butp

[KoobTheProud]

Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo. made things much easier. Of course, those were different days than now. There was no power creep like we have now. Raids always desired 2 dedicated healers, a couple of casters, tank and the rest dps, ranged or melee. Now its just a zergfest with all the bloated stats, enhancement trees and uber equipment.

This is a really good short description of why power creep damages MMO's.

DDO power creep is kind of unique in that the game and the power structure never really resets at any point barring the devs suddenly realizing that a recent change was too power creepy and correcting as in the FvS nerfs.

[Eantarus]

An if/then for ranged works, except possibly for throwers with a melee weapon in the offhand (eg, Celestia as a DR breaker). But casters are the problem here; any ideas how to if/then those while making the bonuses just the right level of appealing?

- Base it on held weapons? Most casters use two weapons anyway, and if the anti-caster benefits are too strong they'll swap a melee weapon or run one full-time
- Base it on armor type? That's the point of ASF and doesn't solve the FvS / Druid issue
- Base it on levels? That discourages hybrids and build options
- Base it on weapon feats? Alchemists / Wizards / Artificers get a bunch of feats and will emerge victorious. If the benefits are good enough, other casters may also dump their feats. Casters aren't as reliant on feats as melee, so veterans who hit DCs without too much difficulty will still get the best of both worlds, especially in heroic
- Base it on skills? Offhand, that would mean penalizing players for taking Spellcraft and Heal, which hurts hybrid specs/classes and monks, and frankly aren't contributing that much anyway

First solution: don't worry too much about it. Casters being able to get a bit more defense that was meant for melees just isn't that big of a deal

Second thought: make the defense situational. If its an "on-hit" effect then it doesn't do a ranged caster much good since he's trying to avoid getting hit.

Next idea: put the defensive buffs into the melee style feats, or add them as feats with a melee style prerequisite and a stacking bonus for additional style feats. For example: there's no real reason at all for a pure sorc nuker to take 2-weapon-fighting even if they are carrying around two weapons. If the defensive feats improve along with the feat line, that just makes non-melees have to invest even more in feats they can't use to get the full benefit.

So for example, let's take a feat that already exists: Two Weapon Defense. Right now, these feat is hot garbage. But imagine if it wasn't. Imagine if, and I am not suggesting these be the actual numbers; but imagine if taking the feat provided the following: "If you have Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defense, +10 PRR and MRR. If you have Imp. 2wf, get an additional +25. If you have Greater 2wf, another +25." That adds up to a total of +65 PRR/MRR for a character with all 4 feats that would only possibly take all 4 of them if they were a melee. Obviously there are several other mechanics that could be used, like AC and Dodge(assuming it doesn't get nerfed from orbit).