With dodge getting nerfed, is mob damage getting adjusted?

[J1NG]

Given how all the defences currently work, a "general" nerf to Dodge would basically consign ALL defences into the bin other than PRR and HP (as AC matters little when enemies hit you anyway or when they do hit you successfully it's in the 5 digit region), and thus would be highly undesireable a result (general nerf to Dodge).

Currently, SSG needs to take a good hard look at this, because they really only get one chance at this, since it'll be so wide encompassing when done and often they are resistant to changes after spending time on doing such changes.

The decision to push it down to another update is the best decision they could have taken, because quite honestly, given the speed we are getting the last two previews and the increase of content available between each preview. I would imagine that the raids players are interested in may not even be complete at this moment (of preview 3) and with more items to arrive (possibly with new mechanics or logic). So they hardly have the time to make something good of this given the time frame they are working with for U55 release.

There's a LOT I can say over this, but I'd save it for another post or thread.

J1NG

[Bjond]

Given how all the defences currently work, a "general" nerf to Dodge would basically consign ALL defences into the bin other than PRR and HP (as AC matters little

IMHO, PRR should have been derived solely from AC and then AC ignored as far as it's "D&D avoidance" function goes. That would have preserved AC's "feel" of defense without creating yet another stat to chase. MRR I would have done inversely with cloth having the most and plate the least. Shields for MRR was a pretty nice touch, though (just for how it feels).

SSG needs to take a good hard look at this, because they really only get one chance

Sadly, I don't think they will.

This one is so ill-conceived as a basic concept that it has the feel of one of those 500-lb gorilla changes; ie. 500lb'er played on live for a lark, didn't like a dodgy build he grouped with, issued fiat -- nerf dodge -- and hasn't played since. Devs likely brought up objections (they're painfully obvious) and got told, "I thought I said nerf dodge."

There's a giant laundry-list of reasons why-not. Ignoring particulars, a change this big should never come on the heels of another massive change (U51). It will take 2~3 years for U51 to finally settle enough for players to be ready to tolerate another global-rebuild, especially with the level-cap pummeling that tolerance every time it changes.

[Artos_Fabril]

dodge probably should be nerfed a lil bit. BUT all the other defence should be buffed so we are not left with the only way to survive on r10 is not get in the hitting range aka not a melee

Dodge is the result of dex-based AC "falling off the die"

In tabletop, a heavy armor build a a dex/dex+wis build can achieve similar AC totals with similar build investment. In DDO, this was broken in favor of dex when I started playing, and for a few years afterwards. With the enhancement revamp and EDs, it broke in the other direction, and dodge was a bandaid for that.

This nerf seems unnecessary, since dodge caps aren't going up noticeably post 30, and dodgy builds are already at an extreme disadvantage in terms of AC and PRR.

[LurkingVeteran]

Dodge is the result of dex-based AC "falling off the die"

In tabletop, a heavy armor build a a dex/dex+wis build can achieve similar AC totals with similar build investment. In DDO, this was broken in favor of dex when I started playing, and for a few years afterwards. With the enhancement revamp and EDs, it broke in the other direction, and dodge was a bandaid for that.

This nerf seems unnecessary, since dodge caps aren't going up noticeably post 30, and dodgy builds are already at an extreme disadvantage in terms of AC and PRR.

Yeah, you can get pretty similar AC on dex builds, but there is a fundamental mechanic missing from DDO, which is attacks of opportunity and being flatfooted when using spells/ranged weapons. This means regardless of your armor and dex, if you are a ranged/spell caster you have less mitigation against melee mobs. DDO doesn't have this mechanic, so it is difficult to balance defenses for melee without making defenses on ranged/spell casters too strong (because they can also wear armor with small investment). I think they should put something back, either as a defense debuff on ranged/casters, or simply as a damage reduction buff when swinging a melee weapon. If they could give melees some oh-no button when they get aggro that would be great as well. For example, by making weapon block actually do something useful (like 50% DR for a few seconds once every 15s).

[J1NG]

Yeah, you can get pretty similar AC on dex builds, but there is a fundamental mechanic missing from DDO, which is attacks of opportunity and being flatfooted when using spells/ranged weapons. This means regardless of your armor and dex, if you are a ranged/spell caster you have less mitigation against melee mobs. DDO doesn't have this mechanic, so it is difficult to balance defenses for melee without making defenses on ranged/spell casters too strong (because they can also wear armor with small investment). I think they should put something back, either as a defense debuff on ranged/casters, or simply as a damage reduction buff when swinging a melee weapon. If they could give melees some oh-no button when they get aggro that would be great as well. For example, by making weapon block actually do something useful (like 50% DR for a few seconds once every 15s).

I made a suggestion somewhat similar to this on Lamannia, but when going through it, it is only viable to do through server resource intensive calculations via "guards" placed on enemies. Which the Devs may balk at. And we may also balk at, since it may stress the system to a worse point than what we have already.

But yeah, essentially it was:

Whilst in melee range (checked by a guard on enemies that use the same "on melee hit" that some guards players can get do) provides a buff to players temporarily that boosts their defences by a % amount (not a flat amount). This way, players that invested into defences, get more out of it whilst in melee (and more likely survive a hit, rather than getting one shot all the time). Whilst those that remain ultra burst ultra dps glass cannon types can remain glass cannons. The choice is available then on what players build on to their preference.

Then, as melee attack a target, a different guard on them debuffs the enemies with each hit, that reduces their overall general Avoidance Debuff (Bypass Roll). Permitting the player who has engaged a target in melee, to still suffer a reduction in Avoidance defences, but at a much lower level, so long as they maintain attacks onto the target.

This then reduces the Avoidance debuff on melee from enemies at melee range (that the player engaged), but keeps it for anyone at ranged or who does not engage in melee (Intim Tanks, who mostly shield block anyway). So if things go south, and the aggro switches to ranged or casters and the enemies use a ranged attack on them, then even with more Avoidance defences, it will be "lower" than those melee who went into melee range to engage the target(s).

In relation to melee (Light or Heavy), in theory it means that the "sooner" they get into melee, the "safer" they become, as their Avoidance defences become LESS reduced by engaging into melee combat and Absorption defences become more pronounced if actively engaging in melee. Whilst the rest (ranged and casters) suffer the normal debuffs that the difficulty setting would have provided.

J1NG

[LittleLexi]

I have to wonder...Who are these players that are too strong because of dodge(one of the few remaining methods of mitigating the over-the-top damage in Reaper mode)? Are they really so prevalent? Because I can certainly say– it's not my experience that the game is too easy because of dodge.

There are already some champions that bypass Dodge/Fort. Is this not sufficient?

I don't mind challenge. But as others have said– I much prefer that challenge to present itself in an interesting and dynamic way. This doesn't fulfill that.

[Eantarus]

I have to wonder...Who are these players that are too strong because of dodge(one of the few remaining methods of mitigating the over-the-top damage in Reaper mode)? Are they really so prevalent? Because I can certainly say– it's not my experience that the game is too easy because of dodge.

There are already some champions that bypass Dodge/Fort. Is this not sufficient?

I don't mind challenge. But as others have said– I much prefer that challenge to present itself in an interesting and dynamic way. This doesn't fulfill that.

Its not so much that some players are too strong as it is that a small yet extremely vocal minority of players complains bitterly about dodge, and the devs listen to them instead of gathering actual metrics.

[Oxarhamar]

Its not so much that some players are too strong as it is that a small yet extremely vocal minority of players complains bitterly about dodge, and the devs listen to them instead of gathering actual metrics.

Same story with IPS and that nerf landed hard on all ranged while the OP effects that made it a problem are still in the game

[ChaosBuddha]

Dodge is the result of dex-based AC "falling off the die"

In tabletop, a heavy armor build a a dex/dex+wis build can achieve similar AC totals with similar build investment. In DDO, this was broken in favor of dex when I started playing, and for a few years afterwards. With the enhancement revamp and EDs, it broke in the other direction, and dodge was a bandaid for that.

This nerf seems unnecessary, since dodge caps aren't going up noticeably post 30, and dodgy builds are already at an extreme disadvantage in terms of AC and PRR.

im not saying dodge builds r op im saying dodge itself is op in comparison to other defense like incorporeal, concealment and ac that does nothing pass r5 its complete dog doo doo.

[Eantarus]

Same story with IPS and that nerf landed hard on all ranged while the OP effects that made it a problem are still in the game

Ayup. And the Shiradi caster nerf.

[Bjond]

Dodge is the result of dex-based AC "falling off the die"

Heh. There are 7 different mitigation mechanisms in DDO -- not counting the sub-types or uniques (like deflect arrows). That's just plain crazy. No wonder the devs are having fits. That's like trying to drive a car with seven steering wheels AND at least as many different drivers.

If we're talking about ultimately making it easier to tune the game, I'd rip out PRR, MRR, Dodge, Elemental Resists, and Absorption. Use AC to derive a %mitigation for physical damage. Use Saves & SR to derive %mitigation for magical damage and effects (reduced CC time). Change (improved) evasion to not provide 100% immunity, but a bonus to that %mitigation -- perhaps a similar bonus for using a shield that kills evasion (large = evasion, tower = improved evasion).

Essentially, boil it down to the most fundamental D&D mechanisms then translate those to %mitigation values for actual application in game. That removes the whole binary live or die on one roll problem and permits tuning everything with just a couple knobs. It also makes gearing easier. "More AC is always good" and same thing with "More saves is better". There are no thresholds due to DC checks, which only make balance worse (it only works for that one time you set the DCs and then it's scaled away).

The caveat to all this is of course the tuning. They'd have to keep Lam up and encourage lots of play there to get tuning feedback and go through more than a few iterations -- including perhaps buffing and nerfing basic class features to get saves and AC in line with desired mitigation values.

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IMHO, anything other than an overall rethink that bases results on fundamental D&D attributes will end up as a band-aid on band-aids and do nothing more than create ever greater issues while also making the game feel less and less like D&D.

[Eantarus]

If we're talking about ultimately making it easier to tune the game, I'd rip out PRR, MRR, Dodge, Elemental Resists, and Absorption. Use AC to derive a %mitigation for physical damage. Use Saves & SR to derive %mitigation for magical damage and effects (reduced CC time).

The only real issue is AC does not scale well in its current implementation. There are of course a lot of ways to fix that.

The other thing is having multiple paths is important to supporting alternative playstyles. It doesn't make a done of sense for example for a rogue to have high AC, rogues survive by being tough to hit. A better suggestion would be strip out PRR/MRR but keep dodge, AC, and use saves for everything else.

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IMHO, anything other than an overall rethink that bases results on fundamental D&D attributes will end up as a band-aid on band-aids and do nothing more than create ever greater issues while also making the game feel less and less like D&D.

Sadly an over-all rethink is not what we're getting, just a nerf to force everyone to play the same way.

[LightBear]

My best dodgy build was a bear/arti in medium armor, had nice ac, prr/mrr and dodge to top it off.
It wasn't unbeatable by any means but was always, and always the last man standing, tho I moved away from that build as its dps sucked.

What stats are we talking about here now then and how do we get there?
Are those high numbers really as widespread among the players or is it targeted against one specific build that is needed to do a raid successfully?
Wondering at that as to be able to form a picture of the impact of such a change.

For the devs, changes to dodge is pushing everything towards ranged combat, including spell casting mind you, even more. Or so it seems right now.

[Wizard1406]

Yeah, you can get pretty similar AC on dex builds, but there is a fundamental mechanic missing from DDO, which is attacks of opportunity and being flatfooted when using spells/ranged weapons. This means regardless of your armor and dex, if you are a ranged/spell caster you have less mitigation against melee mobs. DDO doesn't have this mechanic, so it is difficult to balance defenses for melee without making defenses on ranged/spell casters too strong (because they can also wear armor with small investment).[...]

Couldn't this be fixed by giving epic defensive fighting a significant PRR bonus? And I would look into the spell ranged nerf for epic defensive fighting too for heals and buffs.... can't heal teammates unless you are standing on top of them, not very grouping friendly.

[Jerevth]

In a given quest where the PCs hit mobs hundreds of times, their defenses will be tested thousands of times.
Dodge will fail, as it is right now, at least once. Everything will fail at least once- and often does.
Dodge is capped at 25% with some methods to increase that (Minor enhancement and bursts). Even so, it still appears that- with a limited duration- dodge is capped at around 63%. There remains a 37% chance you'll get smacked, using dodge alone. With thousands of hits coming in, physical attacks will still land. And then there are spell attacks.

Now the Devs are planning to change one of those layered defenses.

A character must be specc'd to get a large amount of dodge as it is.
Dodge and high AC don't play well together- AC reduces Dodge cap.
True Sight penetrates avoidances such as blur and Displacement.
Incorp is limited/low unless you dig deep.

Dodge occupies only a portion of the defense envelope but it was designed with checks and balances in place- i.e; more dodge= lower AC gear.

If Dodge is going to be reevaluated then you throw off the entire defensive system overall.
You'll have to evaluate how often and how hard a character should be hit in every quest, by every mob.
You'll have to decide on the effective range of AC in a quest;

--Level 15, on a Normal level quest (rough example):
Level 15 Heavy Armor should effectively stop 85%
Level 15 Medium Armor should effectively stop 50%
Level 15 Light Armor should effectively stop 35%
Level 15 Cloth should effectively stop 25%

-10% on Hard
-20% on Elite

Then determine armor effectiveness to align with that level with Raid Armor having a significant bonus (~10%), named armor a fair bonus (~5%), CC identical (0%) and Random Loot +/- 5% of the quest effectiveness. (i.e. Random Cloth would fall in a range of 20-30%).

Then you (Devs) need to adjust quest enemies, champs/ mini bosses, bosses so they abide the plotline.


TLDR:

Dodge is only part of the layered defense; everything has evolved based on the others- you cannot change just one aspect of the system without follow-on consequences- Weapons, gear, mobs, classes, enhancements... everything in the game will need to be adjusted.

You'd be better off making a new game with fresh rules and port the quests in, aligning them to the new game rules.

[ChaosBuddha]

???

I've seen it a few times now where a poster with a join date several years back but no previous posts comes into a thread that is overwhelmingly unified in disappointment regarding the games direction in order to make their first post disparaging the other posters in that thread. This is really what you stopped lurking to do? I'm not going to directly say that there are devs taking old unused accounts to react childishly to criticisms (I really have no way of knowing), but it IS suspicious AF.

yeah maybe its someone's backup trolling account. i just dont know why i got the honor for them to break it out for such a random post

[yfernbottom]

In a given quest where the PCs hit mobs hundreds of times, their defenses will be tested thousands of times.
Dodge will fail, as it is right now, at least once. Everything will fail at least once- and often does.
Dodge is capped at 25% with some methods to increase that (Minor enhancement and bursts). Even so, it still appears that- with a limited duration- dodge is capped at around 63%. There remains a 37% chance you'll get smacked, using dodge alone. With thousands of hits coming in, physical attacks will still land. And then there are spell attacks.

Now the Devs are planning to change one of those layered defenses.

A character must be specc'd to get a large amount of dodge as it is.

This is basically my issue with this idea. Standing dodge is capped at 25% to most intents, which does not make it a reliable enough defense that I really think it needs to be nerfed. Even getting up to that requires a heavy build investment with some serious trade-offs. Hell three entire feats devoted to dodge gets you only a 7% flat dodge bonus. Apart from temporary boosts, dodge really borderline through much of heroics even if you are building for it.

The other thing that irks me is the idea that melee will need to build for dodge bypass. Don't they have to balance enough stats as it is?

If they really insist on doing this, it will push the game even further towards ranged builds. The common perception now, accurate or not, is that ranged builds are much more viable in hard content than an average melee build. Why would they want to move the needle even further towards ranged?

[Oxarhamar]

This is basically my issue with this idea. Standing dodge is capped at 25% to most intents, which does not make it a reliable enough defense that I really think it needs to be nerfed. Even getting up to that requires a heavy build investment with some serious trade-offs. Hell three entire feats devoted to dodge gets you only a 7% flat dodge bonus. Apart from temporary boosts, dodge really borderline through much of heroics even if you are building for it.

The other thing that irks me is the idea that melee will need to build for dodge bypass. Don't they have to balance enough stats as it is?

If they really insist on doing this, it will push the game even further towards ranged builds. The common perception now, accurate or not, is that ranged builds are much more viable in hard content than an average melee build. Why would they want to move the needle even further towards ranged?

Definitely not accurate range only offers so much protection eventually you do get hit weather by spells or ranged attacks even melee kiting doesn’t offer immunity and the results are not much different from melee getting hit

The Devs obviously don’t think they nerfed dodge enough with the cookie nerf & the nerf to meld

[Certon]

You see dodge nerf, I see some builds will be marginalized.

They have a problem with this nerf:

If at R10 dodge is 0, then builds who relied on dodge in Reaper for mitigation will respec out of dodge completely because its a wasted resource. Sure, they could play less difficult content, but why would they do that? They'll just adjust feats and items to eliminate dodge completely and maximize PRR MRR and AC. Those will become the flavor of the week.

Now, I also see a shift away from melee with this change. The last clear cut defense against melee damage will be erased, and people will go caster and ranged, while a few people with insane hp will still tank. it will be one tank and 5 ranges.

That is the direction DDO is going.

[AlcoArgo]

I believe the more appropriate analogy would be:

Players are Master Roshi using Migatte No Gokui (Ultra Instinct)

Enemies are Jiren

Eventually Jiren is going to connect even against a user of Ultra Instinct. And when they do, Master Roshi is going to go down hard in that one hit.

So this Jiren (enemies) need to be made more like Toppo (Top) or Dyspo. Still hits (VERY) hard, but not one shots the biggest and baddest that the players can muster. And certainly not one shots those using Dodge (as there's ONLY 1 way to get the PRR and HP needed to tank a hit or two at that point, and that's with making all Completionist, latest raid gear AND ALL Reaper points). The Devs really needs to see how often that last 5% that beats a 95% capped dodge user comes up. It's frighteningly common.

J1NG

Any chance you can repeat that in English?