Where is melee?

[Bjond]

Strim's Chainz or variations of it is enjoyable

If you're playing any melee with light weapons, be it TWF or SWF, Shadar Kai chains are just incredible for improving the AE and general fun of the build. So much so that I don't want to play TWF or SWF without chains.

With that said, though, THF is better still. Bears, Barbarians, Sticky Rogue|Monk, Paladins, etc. .. all shine brighter right now with THF than with TWF or SWF.

[PedXing20]

If you have a ton of pls, max gear, near max reaper ap, etc. then yeah certain melees are amazing. If you lack these things, melees are for the most part trap builds.

Your avg first life squishy melee (rogue, ranger, monk) has around 1.5k hp. Reaper ap, pls, etc. add another 1.5k hp to this amount. And then other defensive pls and reaper points can bring the effective hp up to nearly triple what the same first life toon has.

And this is the reason for the dichotomy in opinions. Hardly anyone puts caveats on things when talking about melee viability.

Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.

Well said
+1

[kuzka111]

butp

[slarden]

If you have a ton of pls, max gear, near max reaper ap, etc. then yeah certain melees are amazing. If you lack these things, melees are for the most part trap builds.

Your avg first life squishy melee (rogue, ranger, monk) has around 1.5k hp. Reaper ap, pls, etc. add another 1.5k hp to this amount. And then other defensive pls and reaper points can bring the effective hp up to nearly triple what the same first life toon has.

And this is the reason for the dichotomy in opinions. Hardly anyone puts caveats on things when talking about melee viability.

Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.

----------------------

Now onto OPs question:

If you want to play melee and have few pls and reaper ap: barbarian or bear druid is really your only choice.

If you want to play melee and you are established:

Dps wise - assassin rogue (sdk), ek, wolf are great choices

Wraps monks are great as you move fast enough to actually get to packs before they are blown up. You have cc, heals, decent dps (single target is around 45k burst, 33k sustained).

Various swf builds making use of sdk for aoe are great as well.

Barbarian is a good choice but dps is on the low side. With all reaper ap etc, you basically end up with an offtank that also does like 35k dps burst / 26k dps sustained.

Off meta builds for more casual playing - staff monk, paladin, warchanter bard

Great summary. If you look at the achievement section for high end raids - besides the standard roles - it’s mostly ranged builds for dps which I think reflects the reality of current raid design and build strength. Melee is ahead of most ranged as far as single-target dps and further ahead of casters. But bow dps is quite good which in the end provides the optimal combination of dps and safety.

the removal of meld without understanding why it was used was a fumble for sure. Melee dps is in a good place but that dps is is only as good as your ability to stand toe to toe with enemies. They really should attach some sort of meld-like ability to epic defensive fighting and remove the penalty for using scrolls on others.

with my assassin between stealth, dodge, improved uncanny dodge, affirmation, increased melee range with shadowdancer, etc. I feel really strong in raids and r10s. But cleaves and big aoe attacks by the boss where having a tank doesn’t help seems like a design issue to me. I am not sure how I will feel after the dodge changes. I don’t keep count but I don’t think I die any more than casters and ranged except in encounters where having a tank doesn’t matter like r10 tempest spine.

[kuzka111]

imo issue is survivabilty, on heroic melee are in great spot same there is no problem on epic too but at legendary and high reaper they are just destoryed , moste of time 2-3 hits and your dead.

Healer almost dont exist ( beside some raids or closed group)

Dev's should revamp old AC system and change prr/mrr system in favor of melee ( i dont know just some heavy/medium/light armor love but not for casters )
imo monk should get some prr/mrr per lvl or more dodge

[Malaegys]

imo issue is survivabilty, on heroic melee are in great spot same there is no problem on epic too but at legendary and high reaper they are just destoryed , moste of time 2-3 hits and your dead.

Healer almost dont exist ( beside some raids or closed group)

Dev's should revamp old AC system and change prr/mrr system in favor of melee ( i dont know just some heavy/medium/light armor love but not for casters )
imo monk should get some prr/mrr per lvl or more dodge

This....AC and PRR needs to be rescaled to actually work for melee at legendary levels. We might as well be wearing a wet paper bag....

[kuzka111]

This....AC and PRR needs to be rescaled to actually work for melee at legendary levels. We might as well be wearing a wet paper bag....

true

[Dandonk]

imo issue is survivabilty, on heroic melee are in great spot same there is no problem on epic too but at legendary and high reaper they are just destoryed , moste of time 2-3 hits and your dead.

Healer almost dont exist ( beside some raids or closed group)

Dev's should revamp old AC system and change prr/mrr system in favor of melee ( i dont know just some heavy/medium/light armor love but not for casters )
imo monk should get some prr/mrr per lvl or more dodge

I agree that melee could use some help with survivability, though I wouldn't go quite as far as "destroyed". But yes, I agree that some help would be nice.

[kuzka111]

so there was like 5 thread's with melee issue and non of dev's respond , so maybe they could atleast tell us are melee in good spot in there mind? or are will they get some love in near future?

[slarden]

so there was like 5 thread's with melee issue and non of dev's respond , so maybe they could atleast tell us are melee in good spot in there mind? or are will they get some love in near future?

To be fair these threads died and keep getting bumped many weeks later- that is why there is so many.

[kuzka111]

to be fair if they not repair melee survivabilty then maybe 50% dmg nerf for casters and range that are blasting high reaper atm

i play only melee and its like 3-4 months when im just in melancholia bc its hard to play when you know your ussless
my 2nd toon is rogue assassin he is great but guess what they want to change DODGE!

so im just angry

[KoobTheProud]

The most damaging thing to melee toons is the breakdown of cohesive groups and unique roles, not the numbers.

100%. Also the fact that pure builds are now very playable solo where they used to be questionable. Melee was in a better spot in the 12-6-2 meta about 5 years ago. That was also a meta where unless you were playing an insta-killer nobody tried to play a pure Wizard.

[ChaosBuddha]

melee is the only play style that's not tab targeting heavy, its the most enjoyable way to play the game mechanically speaking but since ssg don't know how to balance it sux badly. from conan to drizzt if u ant got melee u missing half the sword and sorcery genre

[kuzka111]

The worst thing is, the1 who do all revamping is Steelstar and he is not a fan of melee so we are in deep s.... (swamp ofc)

[Tyrande]

The worst thing is, the1 who do all revamping is Steelstar and he is not a fan of melee so we are in deep s.... (swamp ofc)

You are incorrect, sir. Steelstar is a major proponent of melee. Note that name, Steel...

He is the original developer who came up with PRR and MRR for melees which I loathe.

Before 2012, it was just AB and AC, and layered defenses like Blur, Displacement, Concealment, Incorporeality and Dodge. Elemental Resistances/Absorption...

Of course, he also came up with the various Coffee Flasks to help melee.

[kuzka111]

your wrong adding prr/mrr was needed in general not only for melee , and beside that what he did?( btw it was long ago)

he always said he's fav class is Artificer (that never had high intrest so we got Artificer 2.0 aka Alchemist)

last melee changes we saw in game was invented by Lynn

[KoobTheProud]

your wrong adding prr/mrr was needed in general not only for melee , and beside that what he did?( btw it was long ago)

he always said he's fav class is Artificer (that never had high intrest so we got Artificer 2.0 aka Alchemist)

last melee changes we saw in game was invented by Lynn

MRR was definitely put in for melee to resolve the Plate gets you fried/electrocuted problem since evasion doesn't function in heavy/medium armor and the cumulative elemental damage made armor as much a hindrance as a help. PRR was a logical extension that doubled down on heavy armor protection.

[slarden]

The worst thing is, the1 who do all revamping is Steelstar and he is not a fan of melee so we are in deep s.... (swamp ofc)

Melee was at the top of the pecking order for several years and what changed since the stat squish/ED revamp is that bow dps went up and is comparable to melee, the loss of meld and caster single-target dps went up.

I have not spent considerable time with a bow but it was really good when I used it. Depending on who I talk to some say bow dps> melee dps and other say melee dps > bow dps, either way it's closer than it has ever been historically. I still remember the first time I played a ranger archer pre-motu as a relatively new player and I applied for a raid - was asked via tell whether I was melee or ranged - I said ranged and was immediately rejected lol. The pendulum has moved back and forth over the years.

Looking at the high end raids it's dominated by ranged. Looking at the achievement forum - there is 1 caster in those raids although with 2 fvs it's hard to tell whether 1 is partially focused on spellcasting or they are both healers. That makes sense to me because casting single-target dps is still far behind melee. The change to casting single-target dps has not impacted high-end raiding, but casters are more useful in lower-end raiding. As someone that plays many builds this seems good to me because even on LH raids I was often asked to swap from my caster to assassin so we had more dps. It was hard to get mythic or reaper bonuses for my casters and yet my assassin was loaded with items with bonuses.

The fact that the dps is entirely ranged in high end raids is problematic and does need to be looked at. I personally believe it's mostly a combination of raid mechanics and the loss of meld, but bow dps being very close to melee and being safer also obviously is a factor, although since I haven't spent considerable time on a bow build I don't feel qualified to say what changes are needed to balance that.

I see no evidence the devs were trying to favor a playstyle. I think caster sustainable single-target dps is where it should be, well below martial dps but not so far behind I have to swap toons out of caster in casual raids. I do think the removal of meld was a fumble and not an intentional smack on melee. But the fact that high end raids on the achievement forums are filling dps slots with ranged and melees are not represented or highly under-represented is problematic and needs to be addressed. Melee dps seems to be in a good place so they really need to look at survivability and adding something to epic defensive fighting that will benefit all melee dps builds.

Bow DPS is so good because they wanted to sell the xpac/tree. There is a long history of that. As always that will not be permanent.

he always said he's fav class is Artificer (that never had high intrest so we got Artificer 2.0 aka Alchemist)

Melee artificers are a thing and there is a tree that I believe steelstar created that is more melee focused. Now I don't know if he prefers ranged or melee artificer, but I wouldn't assume anything. I saw a really good melee artificer build in push raiding last summer and never saw a single ranged artificer. The dps #s published on the dps google sheet indicated melee artificer was strong - no clue as I only ever played one for leveling.

[Tyrande]

There was the work put in by Torc to do Melee Survivability Changes:

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/498584

Torc, the inventor of the Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II; usually a caster and paladin zeal friendly dev; is doing melee work to help melee. Imagine that.

[Tyrande]

Melee was at the top of the pecking order for several years and what changed since the stat squish/ED revamp is that bow dps went up and is comparable to melee, the loss of meld and caster single-target dps went up.
[...] I still remember the first time I played a ranger archer pre-motu as a relatively new player and I applied for a raid - was asked via tell whether I was melee or ranged - I said ranged and was immediately rejected lol.

This was my experience as well. My bow ranger was rejected, so was my casters for some raids (Shroud) back then. They said they already have one (1 !) caster. Imagine that...

The pendulum has moved back and forth over the years.

Looking at the high end raids it's dominated by ranged.

This is probably due to Horizon Walker tree. I guess they still want to sell Saltmarsh?
Once its like Warlock its going to get squished.
So all those melee complainers. Wait for your turn again...
The seasons/winds are sure going to turn around.

Looking at the achievement forum - there is 1 caster in those raids although with 2 fvs it's hard to tell whether 1 is partially focused on spellcasting or they are both healers. [...]
I see no evidence the devs were trying to favor a playstyle. I think caster sustainable single-target dps is where it should be, well below martial dps but not so far behind I have to swap toons out of caster in casual raids. I do think the removal of meld was a fumble and not an intentional smack on melee. But the fact that high end raids on the achievement forums are filling dps slots with ranged and melees are not represented or highly under-represented is problematic and needs to be addressed. Melee dps seems to be in a good place so they really need to look at survivability and adding something to epic defensive fighting that will benefit all melee dps builds.

Bow DPS is so good because they wanted to sell the xpac/tree. There is a long history of that. As always that will not be permanent.

I sure don't want to go to raids where they said, oh, BTW, your character is not DPS...if I were not playing a melee, barbarian or not... auto-reject!