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  1. #1
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    Default Where is melee?

    I'm edging toward heroic completionist, at which point I'd like to focus on more in depth developing of a melee build (because I like that play style). However, game seems to be very dominated these days by casters and ranged. I'm doing a wis based stick build pure monk at the moment, and while its fine soloing, gets badly left behind in pugs. What do folk think is most viable melee build at present? If any?

  2. #2
    Community Member FuzzyDuck81's Avatar
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    Maybe try a hybrid sort of build, like a bear druid or an eldritch knight wizard? They're a lot of fun & solid performers.
    I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was, now what's it is weird and scary to me.

  3. #3
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    There are various excellent builds by various great builders on these forums so since you are not one of them I assume you are more like me so here are some ideas about how to get the most mileage out of a low past life melee.

    Goals: There is incredible goodwill in pugs just don’t die too often. You will need to stick to the group not only to survive but also to deliver your dps without drawing aggro. Always keep up with the group and don’t charge in first. Pretend you are the quarterback and your team will open up a route for you to make the best play as you scan the field. If you charge in first you will at best find yourself swinging at vanishing mobs or at worst end up a soul stone.

    Possible solutions:
    Ranger: Pull out your bow you have the feats. The damage will be small but you can remove perched threats and pick off spare mobs that somehow survive the nukers. When you do manage to close to melee range always attack from the sides and rear. Keep enemy rogues, wolves and casters off your pug mates. Be at the end fight because your dps does make a difference there. If you have to hold a door use dod, melee haste and hope for heals. Sometimes you will have to run for your life to buy time for your team. (Kite in circles)

    Barb- max rage number and duration and stay raged. Dip into VKF for melee haste, Ravager and occult slayer for self healing. Use speed action boost to be Johnny on the spot. Do not attack from the front. Use your blood tribute before major fights and if emergency. Hotbar improved uncanny dodge.

    Fighter- check your all your damage reduction stats. If they aren’t high your just a ranger without a bow.

    Bard- Buff everyone and keep them hasted at all times. Fill in any role that needs filling put your cc down and attack from behind. Raise and heal.

    Rogue- Hotbar improved uncanny dodge. Have high enough intelligence and gear to disable traps because that’s expected. Fast sneaking is nice but running around works if the pug is cruising. Many ways to hit including intelligence with Harper tree. For one action point you get the use of great crossbows.

    Research great builds. They are easy to find.
    Last edited by spifflove; 06-08-2022 at 11:26 AM.

  4. #4
    Community Member Deathwing_The_Dragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofAlba View Post
    I'm edging toward heroic completionist, at which point I'd like to focus on more in depth developing of a melee build (because I like that play style). However, game seems to be very dominated these days by casters and ranged. I'm doing a wis based stick build pure monk at the moment, and while its fine soloing, gets badly left behind in pugs. What do folk think is most viable melee build at present? If any?
    1. They tried to re-adjust melee DPS/AC balance in 2012(?) during MoTU xpac release and introduced PRR, MRR as a way to move from D&D system. They lost around 800,000 players shortly after the release.
    2. In the recent stat squish, they came up with the same DPS/AC balance problem between melee and mobs and gave up altogether. Lynnabel even posted in Discord that they are finding it difficult to balance out changes when it comes to melees.

    When barbarian is top-class and most fun to play in MMOs like Lost Ark and even recently launched Diablo Immortal, you need to stop and wonder why melee is **** in DDO. They hide behind "we encourage versatile build AKA casters/rangers" because they do not are not good at Math.

  5. #5
    Community Member Halciet's Avatar
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    Default Scaling and too many Resources

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwing_The_Dragon View Post
    not good at Math.
    Whether that is the case it is certainly a conclusion that can be drawn. It is a complicated issue.

    Pre-MotU first life characters could readily expect to participate in the highest level content in the game presuming the player had some inkling of how to play/build. iirc trash mobs in Epic content used to do roughly 50 damage and 400 HP was pretty standard. Epic Elite changed all that. The addition of different Epic difficulties was not the major problem as players could still run the lower difficulties and both Normal and Hard were scaled such that players could run them fairly easily and Elite certainly could be done with either a particularly strong character or a well functioning group. iirc Epic Hard was roughly equivalent to old Epic. The major strain used to be resource management, but now we have so many ways to restore and bolster our SP pools, various charges, SLAs and self healing that I almost never find myself shrining through regular questing regardless of what build I am playing. With all that in mind they had to challenge us somehow and it seems they landed on real big numbers.

    With how end game raids are done now first life characters can expect to die in only a few hits sometimes even on just Normal difficulty. It really destroys both the usefulness of melee and the essential nature of a healer when players die in 1 hit or 2 in rapid succession. When there is now such a wide range of difficulties it is confusing to me why they find the need to make Normal of any real challenge to even first life players. The only things that should be killing (even first life) players on Normal imo are unawareness or incompetence (also lag) but we find that the way things are scaled now, even "trash mobs" are easily doing it.

  6. #6
    Community Member Assassination's Avatar
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    Op, all melee builds are being left behind in groups.

    I've been running a lot of r10's lately on my dex tempest and it's amazing how casters just blow through this content.

    There is no keeping up with them. They are so "overtuned" that no content is a challenge for them. Also they have no worries about conserving their sp pools as they seem to be bottomless.

    All this is happening, the devs seem to love giving them more and more power.... Then they refuse to do anything to help melee's. They are scared to give melee's some meaningful defenses I guess

    because they feel like the clerics and fvs souls would get bored not having to rez the one shot melee toons in the group. They have a chance to help right now with the new destiny tier 4's and legendary feats and they are

    all garbage for melee. They just keep giving more and more power to casters and ranged.

  7. #7
    Community Member Maxem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assassination View Post

    all garbage for melee. They just keep giving more and more power to casters and ranged.
    Do not forget that all casters are getting a 25% buff across the board: 20 crit multiplier and 5% more crit. So if you thought casters were blowing stuff up add 25-30% more raw power.

    Melees are getting a new dodge mechanic to limit their effective dodge and depend on a new difficult-to-get stat called dodge bypass. Some Monsters will now have dodge. Which only affects melee, not spells. Also, no upgrade to the base attack bonus. It is capped at 25 with the new level increase. PRR and MRR are Directly tied to BAB. So no help there on defense.

    Casters get more damage and Melee gets less defense. That is the short and sweet of this update.

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    20 mult and 5% crit is more like 10-15% more DPS on a geared caster, but your point may still be correct.

    Out of curiosity, since melee DPS mantles are pretty bad, why not pick up a defensive one? Anybody tried Barb/Pala/Monk with Holy Presence? Put all that HAmp to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofAlba View Post
    I'm edging toward heroic completionist, at which point I'd like to focus on more in depth developing of a melee build (because I like that play style). However, game seems to be very dominated these days by casters and ranged. I'm doing a wis based stick build pure monk at the moment, and while its fine soloing, gets badly left behind in pugs. What do folk think is most viable melee build at present? If any?
    OK, those last two words seem to have touched a nerve. Accepting that melee is a bit pants generally, what do you think is the best melee build at the moment? To make it a bit more specific, best for casual pugging and solo, low skulls. And by best, I mean able to contribute something to the group over and above smashing barrels, and while not dying too much. (I have played the game for a fair few years, albeit casually, so don't need more general playing advice thanks, its current build potential I am looking for.

  10. #10
    Community Member spifflove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofAlba View Post
    (I have played the game for a fair few years, albeit casually, so don't need more general playing advice thanks, its current build potential I am looking for.
    I get it you want to Hercules and not Aeolas. My post was a compromise between the two.

    There are plenty of those builds out there by posted by expert respected players, many labeled R10; if I named any I would do a disservice to the others do your own research.

    The best one is the one you like.
    Last edited by spifflove; 06-08-2022 at 06:02 PM.

  11. #11
    Community Member Orangine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofAlba View Post
    I'm edging toward heroic completionist, at which point I'd like to focus on more in depth developing of a melee build (because I like that play style). However, game seems to be very dominated these days by casters and ranged. I'm doing a wis based stick build pure monk at the moment, and while its fine soloing, gets badly left behind in pugs. What do folk think is most viable melee build at present? If any?
    Well, there was a post recently about melees asking if there is any good reason to play melee at endgame.

    According to community, all melee classes are in a perfect spot right now and just as viable as casters for endgame content.
    According to community, the fact that we see a lot more casters for endgame is pure coincidence and server bias.
    According to community, fun should be enough of a reason to play melee, even if it's the only reason.

    Not my opinion. But it was the overall consensus on that thread. That's one of the reasons why melees will never get balanced. The community think they are just so strong and dominant, yet they never roll one for endgame reaper for some reasons. Apparently, on all servers other than mine, it's full of melees dominating the high reaper content. That's what I was told.


    Personally, I think melees need a few small balance improvements to become on par with casters.

    1. Stunning blow and Trip need to be improved. Those have not changed since 2008. Many many things changed since then and it's time to update those skills. First, they should no longer be strength based only and should use your highest modifier. Over the years, many different ways to play melee were introduced and it's doesn't really make sense anymore to lock it for a single stat. For instance, an int based EK or dex based staff monk could benefit from additional CC. More CC equals to more survivability because if the monsters are unable to attack you then inevitably you take less damage. Also, a decent DC for high reaper endgame content is too hard to achieve with the current formula. It's possible but the sacrifices are enormous. For now it's 10 + Strength modifier + tactical modifiers. I think it should scale with half player level just like stunning fist. This would allow non fighters to actually make it work. For now, I feel it's only usable by fighters, and just barely at that. The cooldown of 15 seconds is too high. It should be reduced to 10 or 12 seconds. Stunning Fist has a cooldown of 6 seconds.

    2. Competence bonus to maximum hit points on stances need to be improved. Sacred Stance, Stalwart Stance and Ursa's protector provide up to 20% competence bonus to hit points (Given you take the enhancement). Epic defensive stance gives up to 25% competence bonus to hit points. So right now they don't stack, making the class stance's bonus a complete waste of enhancement points. I think they should stack. If that would be too strong, then perhaps the class stance should give less bonus to hit point, but at least in a type that stacks with the Epic defensive stance.

    3. Epic defensive stance needs to be improved. Epic defensive stance adds a 5% Competence Bonus to maximum Hit Points, with an additional 5% for every combat fighting style feat you have, to a maximum of 25%. I think it should also provide other bonuses such as healing amplification in reaper based on amount of combat fighting style feat you have. This would help decrease the self-healing penalty in mid to high reaper for melees. My opinion is that the main issue for melee players at endgame is survivability and self-sufficiency simply because they have to get close with enemies. There are many possibilities, but an improvement to this Epic defensive stance can go a long way to help bridging the gap between melees and casters regarding survivability and self-sufficiency.

    4. Universal healing (Potions and scrolls) need to be improved. Heal scrolls and potions are no longer a viable option since reaper came out. They provide very little healing but they used to be very useful, back in time especially for melees or arcane casters with no alternative. Since Heal scrolls and potions are mediocre universal healing consumables and accessible to all (most) players, there should not be a healing penalty on those. A potion on normal should provide the same amount of healing on R10. This would help classes with no self-healing option, such as the fighter, to self-heal a little bit better. Even on R1, the potion is deprecated already.

    5. TWF and SWF need to be improved. Does anyone even play TWF anymore? In my opinion, single target DPS is not good at endgame. I play a lot of melee and I can't see a reason why I would roll a TWF melee.
    Last edited by Orangine; 06-08-2022 at 11:47 PM.

  12. #12
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    melee r ok in raids, meh in group and sux in solo.

    caster r ok in raids, great in group and great in solo.

    so yeah.....pretty bad
    Last edited by ChaosBuddha; 06-09-2022 at 01:58 AM.

  13. #13
    Guardiest guarder of guard-dom Yokido's Avatar
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    The most damaging thing to melee toons is the breakdown of cohesive groups and unique roles, not the numbers.

  14. #14
    Community Member Archfae's Avatar
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    Default it varies

    If you have a ton of pls, max gear, near max reaper ap, etc. then yeah certain melees are amazing. If you lack these things, melees are for the most part trap builds.

    Your avg first life squishy melee (rogue, ranger, monk) has around 1.5k hp. Reaper ap, pls, etc. add another 1.5k hp to this amount. And then other defensive pls and reaper points can bring the effective hp up to nearly triple what the same first life toon has.

    And this is the reason for the dichotomy in opinions. Hardly anyone puts caveats on things when talking about melee viability.

    Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

    Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
    Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
    Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

    For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

    For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.

    ----------------------

    Now onto OPs question:

    If you want to play melee and have few pls and reaper ap: barbarian or bear druid is really your only choice.

    If you want to play melee and you are established:

    Dps wise - assassin rogue (sdk), ek, wolf are great choices

    Wraps monks are great as you move fast enough to actually get to packs before they are blown up. You have cc, heals, decent dps (single target is around 45k burst, 33k sustained).

    Various swf builds making use of sdk for aoe are great as well.

    Barbarian is a good choice but dps is on the low side. With all reaper ap etc, you basically end up with an offtank that also does like 35k dps burst / 26k dps sustained.

    Off meta builds for more casual playing - staff monk, paladin, warchanter bard

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    nvm

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    Community Member Monkey_Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archfae View Post
    Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

    Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
    Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
    Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

    For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

    For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.
    No clue where you get these numbers from.

    Virtually all endgame dps builds do 15-20k sustained dps, whether caster, ranged or melee. Any melee build doing 30-45k dps is running multiple debuffs and temporary boosts. Any proper dps caster with less than 20k dps is definitely not using any boosts or debuffs. So not exactly a fair comparison...

    Numbers aside, I completely agree with your conclusion though. Anything easy gets demolished by casters/ranged burst, and anything difficult favors ranged safety. The small niche where melee shine is EH-R1 raids where its just easy enough to stay alive, but the enemies have enough hp to not drop instantly to burst.
    Thelanis

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    Community Member PedXing20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archfae View Post
    If you have a ton of pls, max gear, near max reaper ap, etc. then yeah certain melees are amazing. If you lack these things, melees are for the most part trap builds.

    Your avg first life squishy melee (rogue, ranger, monk) has around 1.5k hp. Reaper ap, pls, etc. add another 1.5k hp to this amount. And then other defensive pls and reaper points can bring the effective hp up to nearly triple what the same first life toon has.

    And this is the reason for the dichotomy in opinions. Hardly anyone puts caveats on things when talking about melee viability.

    Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

    Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
    Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
    Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

    For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

    For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.
    Well said
    +1

  18. #18
    Bounty Hunter slarden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archfae View Post
    If you have a ton of pls, max gear, near max reaper ap, etc. then yeah certain melees are amazing. If you lack these things, melees are for the most part trap builds.

    Your avg first life squishy melee (rogue, ranger, monk) has around 1.5k hp. Reaper ap, pls, etc. add another 1.5k hp to this amount. And then other defensive pls and reaper points can bring the effective hp up to nearly triple what the same first life toon has.

    And this is the reason for the dichotomy in opinions. Hardly anyone puts caveats on things when talking about melee viability.

    Btw (single target) dps numbers wise:

    Melee burst is anywhere from 45-60k on a fully kitted out toon. Sustain is around 30-45k dps. Caveat that thf vs swf vs twf numbers vary with different benefits.
    Ranged burst is around 50-60k with much less uptime than melee. Sustain is around 25-35k dps. Caveat that ranged is mostly single target favored.
    Caster burst is around 35-40k dps with uptime limited to sp / pot usage. Sustain is around 10-20k dps. Caveat here is that casters aoe is unparalleled.

    For quests where even r10 boss beat downs only last 10 or so seconds, ranged win compared to melee. And for trash, casters both dc and dps wipe the floor. Certain melees like sdk chain builds can be great trash clearers too, if they've got everything (including an entire sentient swap to hit dcs for cc).

    For raids, melees have an advantage in dps as single target dps is the name of the game. But many raid mechanics make it so melees are disadvantaged. Further, the moment you step into r1 raids, its nearly impossible to survive on a melee unless you have a ton of reaper ap and pls. And a soul stone does zero dps.

    ----------------------

    Now onto OPs question:

    If you want to play melee and have few pls and reaper ap: barbarian or bear druid is really your only choice.

    If you want to play melee and you are established:

    Dps wise - assassin rogue (sdk), ek, wolf are great choices

    Wraps monks are great as you move fast enough to actually get to packs before they are blown up. You have cc, heals, decent dps (single target is around 45k burst, 33k sustained).

    Various swf builds making use of sdk for aoe are great as well.

    Barbarian is a good choice but dps is on the low side. With all reaper ap etc, you basically end up with an offtank that also does like 35k dps burst / 26k dps sustained.

    Off meta builds for more casual playing - staff monk, paladin, warchanter bard
    Great summary. If you look at the achievement section for high end raids - besides the standard roles - it’s mostly ranged builds for dps which I think reflects the reality of current raid design and build strength. Melee is ahead of most ranged as far as single-target dps and further ahead of casters. But bow dps is quite good which in the end provides the optimal combination of dps and safety.

    the removal of meld without understanding why it was used was a fumble for sure. Melee dps is in a good place but that dps is is only as good as your ability to stand toe to toe with enemies. They really should attach some sort of meld-like ability to epic defensive fighting and remove the penalty for using scrolls on others.

    with my assassin between stealth, dodge, improved uncanny dodge, affirmation, increased melee range with shadowdancer, etc. I feel really strong in raids and r10s. But cleaves and big aoe attacks by the boss where having a tank doesn’t help seems like a design issue to me. I am not sure how I will feel after the dodge changes. I don’t keep count but I don’t think I die any more than casters and ranged except in encounters where having a tank doesn’t matter like r10 tempest spine.
    DC Warlock Reaper Build (U48)
    Max DC Illusionist Reaper Build (U48)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yokido View Post
    The most damaging thing to melee toons is the breakdown of cohesive groups and unique roles, not the numbers.
    100%. Also the fact that pure builds are now very playable solo where they used to be questionable. Melee was in a better spot in the 12-6-2 meta about 5 years ago. That was also a meta where unless you were playing an insta-killer nobody tried to play a pure Wizard.

  20. #20
    Community Member Knightrose's Avatar
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    Melee can be strong but it will always need support. Nothing beats casters. Not for anything. Druid DOTs do more than melee and ranged combined. That's just DOTs. Even Sorcerers and Alchemists can have better defenses than a brawler melee (like Vanguard or Barbarian) and still pump out 300% or more damage at the same time. Even in leveling it's a joke. My Paladin Vanguard with optimized gear and consumables at level 12 doing DQ on R1 takes 20-30 minutes to solo. With struggle and sometimes failure. My Druid wearing literally nothing at level 12 DQ R1 will kill the boss in ONE application of Creeping Cold and other dots. She spawns back to center platform and dies within 3 minutes.

    To be honest spellcasting is so out of whack that in my opinion the real DDO is in melee and ranged. That's where the challenge lies because it sure isn't a challenge to play a caster. 7+ SLAs all pumped up with meta-magics and spellpower + gear. There's no way left-clicking can compete with that.
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