Where is melee?

[kuzka111]

Keep waiting.

ofc i will and i can be annoying with it

[LittleLexi]

It is not a bad idea that melee defenses get boosted only in reaper mode because only there it is really needed but the question is how you ensure that only melee gets that boost?
My idea would be that you have in the reaper trees additional damage mitigation similar to the Barbarian Damage Reduction but only if Epic Defensive Fighting is active.
Of course, much simpler to code would be to give just a percentage damage reduction with EDF.

No no no no no and a thousand times no! Please don't tie anything to the farce that is EDF. I would much prefer that it is removed from the game and better solutions found. I like playing hybrid builds that want to cast spells from time to time and the touch range restriction from EDF is so incredibly annoying and limiting. We definitely need more mitigation and ways to deal with the threat of massive damage in melee range. I sincerely hope that it's not through the crutch that is EDF or other similar non-solutions.

As for your point on casters - take a look at the HC server for yet another illustration of how dominant casters are; one-shotting those dangerous hounds, while many other builds struggle. The sheer damage they do for the short cooldowns they have is way too much– particularly on Elite and low-mid Reaper. AoE damage at that. Not to mention all the utility from being able to CC, self-heal, heal others; even heal through using some damaging spells and abilities. Plus the ability to do all this from a safe distance.

Yes spell casting should be powerful. But when you can throw out spell after spell with damage of ridiculous proportions– the awe of the magic in this world starts to lose its lustre. In PnP: this is balanced by spell casters only having a certain number of spell slots per day, and then needing to rest and recuperate. In DDO: this is accomplished through the use of shrines and the SP mechanism. But we've got to the point now with all the ways to reduce SP cost, or regain free SP from lost souls, multiple RoSS, and enhancements, that it is undermining the cost normally associated with spell casting. And undermining the challenge of the game as a result; including the play experience for the non-casters in the party. And when you combine this with power creep and all the additional spell power we have these days– it's just gone overboard in favour of casters too much, to the point now where playing one is faceroll easy. And I love playing casters! But I recognize the current situation is unhealthy and something has to give.

[Chacka_DDO]

No no no no no and a thousand times no! Please don't tie anything to the farce that is EDF. I would much prefer that it is removed from the game and better solutions found. I like playing hybrid builds that want to cast spells from time to time and the touch range restriction from EDF is so incredibly annoying and limiting. We definitely need more mitigation and ways to deal with the threat of massive damage in melee range. I sincerely hope that it's not through the crutch that is EDF or other similar non-solutions.

If you ask me I fully agree, I don't see any reason for the touch range restriction for spells in general and even less for positive spells (heals, buffs, raise) I think it is already restrictive enough if you need to get 4 additional melee combat style feats to get the 25% HP bonus.
I would also like to see melee/caster hybrids can cast spells without touch range restriction but the developers insist on the restrictions so we have to deal with them.
Nevertheless, melee needs better defenses and this means in my opinion not only more HP (the 25% is already good) but also less damage, and a damage reduction could be a part of the EDF, this would be most likely the easiest way also for the developers.

As for your point on casters - take a look at the HC server for yet another illustration of how dominant casters are; one-shotting those dangerous hounds, while many other builds struggle. The sheer damage they do for the short cooldowns they have is way too much– particularly on Elite and low-mid Reaper. AoE damage at that. Not to mention all the utility from being able to CC, self-heal, heal others; even heal through using some damaging spells and abilities. Plus the ability to do all this from a safe distance.

I play hardcore currently only elite and a caster but I don't see that a good weapon build has big problems to contributing good sustainable damage to a party.

Yes spell casting should be powerful. But when you can throw out spell after spell with damage of ridiculous proportions– the awe of the magic in this world starts to lose its lustre. In PnP: this is balanced by spell casters only having a certain number of spell slots per day, and then needing to rest and recuperate. In DDO: this is accomplished through the use of shrines and the SP mechanism. But we've got to the point now with all the ways to reduce SP cost, or regain free SP from lost souls, multiple RoSS, and enhancements, that it is undermining the cost normally associated with spell casting. And undermining the challenge of the game as a result; including the play experience for the non-casters in the party. And when you combine this with power creep and all the additional spell power we have these days– it's just gone overboard in favour of casters too much, to the point now where playing one is faceroll easy. And I love playing casters! But I recognize the current situation is unhealthy and something has to give.

Yes indeed it should be powerful and my feeling caster damage is currently in a good spot, if you build your character for DPS spells they should do good damage and the spells should feel powerful and this is what they currently do.
Weapon users do maybe less damage but they do good enough damage anyhow.
Therefore I see no need for action regarding caster or weapon user damage in general.
But I see a need for action regarding the defense of melee and the old tactical feats to give melee better means for CC already from level 1.

[Monkey_Archer]

Nevertheless, melee needs better defenses and this means in my opinion not only more HP (the 25% is already good) but also less damage, and a damage reduction could be a part of the EDF, this would be most likely the easiest way also for the developers.

Right now, endgame melee dps is only barely ahead of ranged and caster dps if you min/max for it. Any reduction in damage would have melee players drop EDF or stop playing melee entirely. If anything, endgame melee need slightly more dps. (assuming ranged/caster nerfs are not on the table)

But I see a need for action regarding the defense of melee and the old tactical feats to give melee better means for CC already from level 1.

I brought this to the attention of the devs during the stat squish. It seemed obvious to me at the time that tactics dcs were not going to be high enough. They should be based on character level just like every other useable dc based ability (stunning fist, assassinate, falconry, etc...) Trip should also be a reflex save, since monster strength is not balanced properly.

As for defense, I'd like to see the AC system get a revamp. Right now most endgame builds have around 100 ac without trying, which is useless. If you invest in AC you can get 200, which is also useless. Tanks typically get 300+ AC which is just barely better than useless, and full investment gets 400+ which barely competes with a generic 25% dodge build.

Suggestion:
Defensive fighting adds BAB to AC
EDF adds twice BAB to AC
Armor types add their BAB bonus to PRR to AC as well. (ie 2x for Heavy, 1.5x medium, 1x for light)
Monks get BAB to AC while centered.

This would allow melee dps builds to hit 300-400 AC with some investment, which translates to about the equivalent of 10-30% dodge depending on content.
Yes, this might make melee durability quite overpowered for leveling. Just like caster AOE damage already is

[slarden]

Right now, endgame melee dps is only barely ahead of ranged and caster dps if you min/max for it. Any reduction in damage would have melee players drop EDF or stop playing melee entirely. If anything, endgame melee need slightly more dps. (assuming ranged/caster nerfs are not on the table)

I agree bow dps is close to melee, but don't agree on caster dps.

If you can match melee single-target dps with a caster please detail the rotation and math here. I mean there is a reason you don't see many casters in the high-end raid achievement section and that reason is dps. If you can show the rotation/math that matches a melee I agree it should be looked at.

As for defense, I'd like to see the AC system get a revamp. Right now most endgame builds have around 100 ac without trying, which is useless. If you invest in AC you can get 200, which is also useless. Tanks typically get 300+ AC which is just barely better than useless, and full investment gets 400+ which barely competes with a generic 25% dodge build.

I am not sure where you are getting this from - this does not match my experience at all. My assassin has 25% dodge and I rely on a tank in R10 grabbing aggro to maximize my dps and survivability. I can push my dodge to 95% if needed and of course can go toe-to-toe with just about anything during that short duration.

On the other hand my tank with over 400 AC gets good mitigation in R10s (outside of push raiding where math is completely different). I have no problem tanking multiple dooms at once and since the stat squish have rarely seen more than 3 stacks. My experience is that AC on my tank became slightly more effective after the stat squish/ED compared to before.

AC on a tank is a very unique case where the past life benefits combined with total AC multipliers is enormous.

Push raiding is a different ball game - won't comment on that because I have only ever tanked a few lower skull raids to sub for the usual tanks that were unavailable - and I definitely prefer not to tank reaper raids. But yeah I know for certain raids like VOD I've heard a dodge tank might be better for higher skulls, but I've personally never run that one above R4 so I don't know. The tank in the R4 VOD did say AC wasn't working real well and we were all taking turns using our dodge 50% hats on the tank to help out.

[Monkey_Archer]

I agree bow dps is close to melee, but don't agree on caster dps.

If you can match melee single-target dps with a caster please detail the rotation and math here. I mean there is a reason you don't see many casters in the high-end raid achievement section and that reason is dps. If you can show the rotation/math that matches a melee I agree it should be looked at.

Water savant builds with ~900 spell power 80%+ crit... Iceberg, thunderstroke, polar ray every 5 seconds is nearly 10k dps without debuffs, add in epic strikes, ruins and filler spells... Cold druid is also up there. I don't believe they can quite match the top dps melee builds, but they are close enough, and definitely higher than the low dps melees like monks.

Most achievements were done before the caster buffs, and ranged dps is roughly equal so there's no real reason to use casters and drink a bunch of pots. The pot issue is however non-existent in standard r10s or r1 raids.

I am not sure where you are getting this from - this does not match my experience at all. My assassin has 25% dodge and I rely on a tank in R10 grabbing aggro to maximize my dps and survivability. I can push my dodge to 95% if needed and of course can go toe-to-toe with just about anything during that short duration.

On the other hand my tank with over 400 AC gets good mitigation in R10s (outside of push raiding where math is completely different). I have no problem tanking multiple dooms at once and since the stat squish have rarely seen more than 3 stacks. My experience is that AC on my tank became slightly more effective after the stat squish/ED compared to before.

AC on a tank is a very unique case where the past life benefits combined with total AC multipliers is enormous.

Push raiding is a different ball game - won't comment on that because I have only ever tanked a few lower skull raids to sub for the usual tanks that were unavailable - and I definitely prefer not to tank reaper raids. But yeah I know for certain raids like VOD I've heard a dodge tank might be better for higher skulls, but I've personally never run that one above R4 so I don't know. The tank in the R4 VOD did say AC wasn't working real well and we were all taking turns using our dodge 50% hats on the tank to help out.

I was thinking of raids where you need roughly 100-200 higher ac than quests to see the same mitigation. In quests AC is more like 300+ for 25% dodge equivalent and 400+ for 50% dodge equivalent, roughly.

The point though was for dps melees, not just tanks, to get above 300 ac.

[Mand_OLin]

Right now, endgame melee dps is only barely ahead of ranged and caster dps if you min/max for it. Any reduction in damage would have melee players drop EDF or stop playing melee entirely. If anything, endgame melee need slightly more dps. (assuming ranged/caster nerfs are not on the table)



I brought this to the attention of the devs during the stat squish. It seemed obvious to me at the time that tactics dcs were not going to be high enough. They should be based on character level just like every other useable dc based ability (stunning fist, assassinate, falconry, etc...) Trip should also be a reflex save, since monster strength is not balanced properly.

As for defense, I'd like to see the AC system get a revamp. Right now most endgame builds have around 100 ac without trying, which is useless. If you invest in AC you can get 200, which is also useless. Tanks typically get 300+ AC which is just barely better than useless, and full investment gets 400+ which barely competes with a generic 25% dodge build.

Suggestion:
Defensive fighting adds BAB to AC
EDF adds twice BAB to AC
Armor types add their BAB bonus to PRR to AC as well. (ie 2x for Heavy, 1.5x medium, 1x for light)
Monks get BAB to AC while centered.

This would allow melee dps builds to hit 300-400 AC with some investment, which translates to about the equivalent of 10-30% dodge depending on content.
Yes, this might make melee durability quite overpowered for leveling. Just like caster AOE damage already is

From my experience tank builds vary wildly and are largely a balance / tradeoff situation between HP, AC, PRR & MRR (and to a lesser degree fortification & saves). When you say "full investment", I take that to mean the player has placed priority / emphasis on AC which should net well over 500... but at the cost of HP, PRR, MRR. My tank's AC is currently at 523 with a still respectable (in my opinion) 5979 HP, 411 PRR, and 309 MRR (with 346% fort and saves of +125/+111/+116). These are completely un-buffed numbers (including no pots) in a reaper instance.

Those dodge builds are great, but tend to be unable to tolerate many hits (when the hits do, inevitably land).

I do like your suggestions. However, I believe PRR should be limited based upon armor category much as MRR is limited.

[slarden]

Water savant builds with ~900 spell power 80%+ crit... Iceberg, thunderstroke, polar ray every 5 seconds is nearly 10k dps without debuffs, add in epic strikes, ruins and filler spells... Cold druid is also up there. I don't believe they can quite match the top dps melee builds, but they are close enough, and definitely higher than the low dps melees like monks.

Most achievements were done before the caster buffs, and ranged dps is roughly equal so there's no real reason to use casters and drink a bunch of pots. The pot issue is however non-existent in standard r10s or r1 raids.

I was thinking of raids where you need roughly 100-200 higher ac than quests to see the same mitigation. In quests AC is more like 300+ for 25% dodge equivalent and 400+ for 50% dodge equivalent, roughly.

The point though was for dps melees, not just tanks, to get above 300 ac.

No it's not close to melee single-target dps, but would be happy to see some actual math. Remember the sustainable part is important - spell points are limited.

Those achievements were after the changes. 1 Sorc, no alchemist, no wizard, no warlock.

Yes high end raiding is like a completely different game than questing. If there is an issue with the math there they should look specifically at the numbers in raids. I don't know the numbers are where the devs want them or not, but yes clearly 400s ac isn't as effective in all high end raids compared to quests.

Melee defenses need to be looked at but I am not sure AC is the best solution with past life benefits having such a major impact. Melees lost meld and dire charge and that changed the landscape quite a bit. I think they devs should start there and look at how to replace the defense lost from there. As far as DPS to the extent melee>ranged>caster single-target dps is not the case, that also needs to be changed. As far as I can tell bow dps might be an outlier in the right hands and monks need a dps boost (still suffering from over-nerf).

[LilacDragon6]

N

Melee defenses need to be looked at but I am not sure AC is the best solution with past life benefits having such a major impact. Melees lost meld and dire charge and that changed the landscape quite a bit. I think they devs should start there and look at how to replace the defense lost from there. As far as DPS to the extent melee>ranged>caster single-target dps is not the case, that also needs to be changed. As far as I can tell bow dps might be an outlier in the right hands and monks need a dps boost (still suffering from over-nerf).

a "parry" ability that will allow melees to "deflect" some attacks similar to Deflect Arrows. This should be tied to epic defensive fighting.

[Monkey_Archer]

No it's not close to melee single-target dps, but would be happy to see some actual math. Remember the sustainable part is important - spell points are limited.

I disagree that spell points are limited. I myself have 100s of looted sp pots I never end up using, and anyone who has done any amount of TRing (ie favor rewards), or is VIP can easily buy more pots from the DDO store than they could ever use.

Anyway:
Basic cold savant rotation: Iceberg, Thunderstroke, Polar ray every 5 seconds, with ruin, greater ruin and dragon's breath thrown in on cd.
900 cold spell power, 80% crit, 3x multiplier
700 secondary spell power, 50% crit, 2.5x multiplier
(I don't think this is quite maxed out, but close enough)

Formula: (base damage * (spell power+100)/100 * crit chance * crit multiplier)
+ (base * spell power * 1-crit chance)

iceberg: (900 * 10 * 0.8 *3) + (900 * 10 * 0.2) = 21600+ 1800 = 23400
polar ray (345 * 10 *0.8 *3) + (345 * 10 * 0.2) = 8280 + 690 = 8970
Thunderstroke (900 *8 * 0.5*2.5) + (900 *8 *0.5) = 9000 + 3600 = 12600
Rotation dps = (23400+8970+12600)/ 5 seconds = 8994

draconic mantle: (285 * 10 * 0.8 * 3) + (285 *10 * 0.2) = 6840 + 570 = 7410
mantle dps = 7410 /2 = 3705

ruin+gruin(untyped): (1500 * 8 * 0.5 * 2.5) + (1500 * 8 * 0.5) = 15000+6000 = 21000
ruin+gruin(cold): (1500 * 10 * 0.8 * 3) + (1500 * 10 * 0.2) = 36000 + 3000 = 39000
ruin dps: (21000+39000) / 15 seconds = 4000

dragons breath: (810 * 10 * 0.8 * 3) + (810 * 10 * 0.2) = 19440 + 1620 = 21060
dragons breath dps = 21060 / 15 seconds = 1404

Total: 8994+ 3705 +4000 +1404 = 18103 dps

Keep in mind this is only for 12 spells per 15 second rotation and does not include boosts, red scale, attunement rings, etc... but also assumed no failed saves, so around 20k is probably more accurate.

.......................................

Melee dps is more complicated and I don't want to do the full manual calculation here when I have a spreadsheet for it.

Simplified version for a SWF kensei is roughly:
200 base damage SWF
2.7 attacks per second
300 melee power (4x)
100% doublestrike
~2x crit profile

= 200 * 2.7 *4 * 2 * 2 = 8640 dps
~2500 for sneak attack
~1000 for onhit effects
~4500 for adrenaline

~= 16640 dps (actual dps on spreadsheet is 17057 for reference)

TWF vistani ek/rogue builds clock in at around 18k dps. With absolutely perfect reaper bonus gear you can just barely break 20k. Monks and other lower dps builds are around 13-14k dps
Disclaimer, I don't have wolf numbers atm.

Melee defenses need to be looked at but I am not sure AC is the best solution with past life benefits having such a major impact. Melees lost meld and dire charge and that changed the landscape quite a bit. I think they devs should start there and look at how to replace the defense lost from there. As far as DPS to the extent melee>ranged>caster single-target dps is not the case, that also needs to be changed. As far as I can tell bow dps might be an outlier in the right hands and monks need a dps boost (still suffering from over-nerf).

I agree AC past lives are absurd, and would not be opposed to a nerf there. On the otherhand a massive buff to melee ac numbers would function as a proxy nerf to those past lives as well. I like ac a solution because it could also help address the defense gap between heavy armor non-tank builds (like dps paladins and fighters) compared to dodge/hp classes like rogues and barbs.

EDIT: fixed a calculation error on ruin

[Chacka_DDO]

I disagree that spell points are limited. I myself have 100s of looted sp pots I never end up using, and anyone who has done any amount of TRing (ie favor rewards), or is VIP can easily buy more pots from the DDO store than they could ever use.

Spell points are a limiting factor for caster DPS anyhow and the use or not use of spell points potions is NOT proof against that!
The use of spell points potions should NEVER be the norm and the disadvantage for casters for needing spell points should never be that big, if the disadvantage from the limitation from spell points would be bigger the peak DPS of casters would have to be much bigger as well to balance that.
And if such a big disadvantage of SP use is balanced with a huge DPS boost you would run into the problem that a player who buys SP potions in the DDO Shop would have a BIG advantage and as a result a totally overpowered character (pay to win)

Caster DPS:

Total: 8994+ 3705 +4000 +1404 = 18103 dps

Melee DPS:

~= 16640 dps (actual dps on spreadsheet is 17057 for reference)

TWF vistani ek/rogue builds clock in at around 18k dps. With absolutely perfect reaper bonus gear you can just barely break 20k. Monks and other lower dps builds are around 13-14k dps
Disclaimer, I don't have wolf numbers atm.

Referring to your calculation it appears to me that casters still do not have enough DPS when you count in the spell points is a limiting factor...
But it is of course more complicated because spells have practical advantages especially when it comes to damage on more than one target at once.
My feeling is that caster DPS and melee DPS are currently in a good spot, I don't expect to get most kills in a quest when I play a melee when there are casters around who are specialized for a high kill count and this is OK for me!
But my feeling is that melees have by far not the defenses they need because they are forced to "step in the fire" when they want to do DPS and my feeling is too that melee have still not the CC they should have available when a player tries to spec his melee for CC.
Same as for the DPS I don't expect a melee to have more DPS and faster instant kills than casters and I also don't expect a melee to have better CC than casters but I think it is reasonable to ask for like 50% of the CC abilities a caster can provide if you spec your melee build for tactical abilities aka CC (Crowd Control).
And I expect a melee to be noticeable and more durable against damage and this means not only more HP, also better damage mitigation is important.
And by the way, AC and fortification is it in its current incarnation in DDO is quite poor damage mitigation because with bad luck a monster can kill you very quickly if you rely on AC and dodge (of course with lucky rolls you can also receive no damage and you appear like you are invincible )

[Chacka_DDO]

a "parry" ability that will allow melees to "deflect" some attacks similar to Deflect Arrows. This should be tied to epic defensive fighting.

You can have the opinion that we need another additional dodge/AC mechanic that makes a monster miss more attacks but I would much more like to see that melee are more durable against damage in general by reducing damage by a fixed amount.

By the way, I can imagine that it could be interesting when melee gets a new form of damage reduction that negates incoming damage and "deflects" it to the attacker.

[Monkey_Archer]

Spell points are a limiting factor for caster DPS anyhow and the use or not use of spell points potions is NOT proof against that!
The use of spell points potions should NEVER be the norm and the disadvantage for casters for needing spell points should never be that big, if the disadvantage from the limitation from spell points would be bigger the peak DPS of casters would have to be much bigger as well to balance that.
And if such a big disadvantage of SP use is balanced with a huge DPS boost you would run into the problem that a player who buys SP potions in the DDO Shop would have a BIG advantage and as a result a totally overpowered character (pay to win)

Referring to your calculation it appears to me that casters still do not have enough DPS when you count in the spell points is a limiting factor...

lol. The time to argue against pay to win was 10 years ago. (I was then, where were you? )
The reality now is that no endgame player ever runs out of sp. Period.
Limited numbers of haste boosts, power surge, madstone clickies, etc... are the actual limiting factors in ddo. So you have this backwards.
But of course this only ever matters in raid pushes where ranged is king anyway...

My feeling is that caster DPS and melee DPS are currently in a good spot, I don't expect to get most kills in a quest when I play a melee when there are casters around who are specialized for a high kill count and this is OK for me!
But my feeling is that melees have by far not the defenses they need because they are forced to "step in the fire" when they want to do DPS and my feeling is too that melee have still not the CC they should have available when a player tries to spec his melee for CC.

While I still think that some of the lower dps melee builds could use a dps buff, I generally agree with this. Overall melee vs caster balance isn't terrible once you have 100+ reaper points. So yes, its entirely a survivability/cc problem.

Tangent: I also think endgame monsters should have double the hp they currently do...

[slarden]

While I still think that some of the lower dps melee builds could use a dps buff, I generally agree with this. Overall melee vs caster balance isn't terrible once you have 100+ reaper points. So yes, its entirely a survivability/cc problem.

Tangent: I also think endgame monsters should have double the hp they currently do...

This is my feeling on dps as well. Overall balance is in a good place, but a few outliers should be looked at such as monks. Defenses need to be looked at which is largely due to the removal of meld, dire charge and to a lesser extent energy sheath.

A few years back SSG made some changes to make it easier to kill bosses/enemies on high skulls. They could easily adjust that if they think players are too strong.

[kuzka111]

ofc still w8ing for some respond from dev

[PedXing20]

I suspect melee players would benefit most from a way to lower incoming damage?

I'm a caster so little personal experience, but my melee friends get frustrated when they go from full health to dead even when they do everything right...

[ChaosBuddha]

yep

[kuzka111]

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