U55 Preview 3 (6/7 - 6/9)

[droid327]

I think a big problem of RL is, that there is little reason to explore Barovia despite its beauty. I'd be fine if we get a guide to lead us to certain points of the map, so that we had some running still to do or if it's like in 3BC where after you finished a quest for the first time, you can port back to it (which would make it easier for daily farming and such).

This is true for pretty much every wilderness except Orchard, though, for the same reasons - the XP/min compared to questing is just so horrible. It doesnt have to be equal (Slayers are way easier than R1 questing), but it has to at least be in the same ballpark

Increase spawn density in Barovia so that, like Orchard, you can actually clear Slayer goals in a reasonable time, without just doing runs down from Amber Temple over and over...

Maybe increase XP for Rare Encounters and Explorer objectives too, if not just increase the XP across the board

[Entyri]

The quests look amazing, and the dinos are fantastic. Thank you very much!

As far as dodge on enemies is concerned, the sources of dodge bypass right now are: 5-10% (shiradi), 3% shadowdancer, 3% (w)elf, 3-4% tabaxi, 5% rune lodestone, 5% legendary aim, 3% reaper imbuement. Of that ranged get a vast majority 21%, versus melee potential 3-9%, which also combined with the dodge bypass enemies are getting (+reaper dodge bypass), seems like a kinda heavy melee nerf. Ranged do about as much single target damage as most melees, and are only a bit behind in aoe trash clearing. The added dodge is also another nuker buff in addition to the several they have already gotten. Seems like an interesting design choice, and makes me think melee really need something to compensate here.

Cheers! Thanks for the hard work!

[J1NG]

Balancing Melee:

There are various types of melee:

Tank (Which doesn't need help)
Melee (Which does need help)

Casters and ranged can be ignored here.

So if we look at it, a tank will shield block whilst in melee range of enemies, and in most cases, they are built to use Absorption defences anyway (Lots of PRR/MRR and HP, with "maybe" some AC involved). Some are hate tanks, but largely still in the previous category. Dodge is often not included as it'll have miniscule amounts for this lot. Whilst a melee will be set to higher MP and attack capability, with (hopefully) moderate defences (usually of the Avoidance category). Then there is the glass cannon variety, all dps, no defence.

So if we look at that, we can go with the following route:
1. Boost defences of players in melee range through range detection of each enemy.
The drawback with this approach, is it unnecessarily buffs the Tank and the Glass Cannon as well.
Also server resource increase.

2. Only boost defences to those that attack enemies in melee range (through a universal Guard on enemies that buffs players, much like how successful hit on guards on players need a melee hit).
The drawback here, is that this unnecessarily buffs the Glass Cannon that didn't bother to even invest into "some" defence.
Again, server resource increase.

3. Only boost defences to those that attack enemies in melee range (and the buff is a % boost).
The drawback here, is that there are some hate tanks that will make use of this well (but doesn't really impact them as much). But for actual melee, this will then provide appropriate buffs towards players that did invest into their defences as well and now get to see them work, whilst those that didn't invest, will still be glass cannons. And will need to consider if continuing being a glass cannon is worthwhile vs actually investing into defences again.

However if we look at that, whilst defences are boosted in favor of melee players, there is still the excessive "debuff" portion on Reaper and high difficulty that is absurdly in favor of being "not" in melee range so it can spite ranged and casters (and some tanks)when the trash goes for them. So, in order to get around this, and assuming the "debuff" IS being applied as a bypass amount, then I would also suggest the following:

1. For each (successful) melee attack, a "debuff" (through a guard on the enemy) is applied to the enemy in melee range (-1 Dodge, Concealment and Incorporeal bypass rolls and -1 MP and SP. Stacks up to X times for each; this should be decided by the devs. My suggestion is -10 to Dodge, -20 for Concealment and -25 for Incorporeal, so that at R10, you can reduce the "debuff" vs your Avoidance Defences so that you have -10 to Concealment instead of -30, -10 to Incorporeal instead of -35 with some reductions to damage output as well. But this would ONLY apply to the target that is hit. So you will not gain advantage vs many enemies so still need to look out vs others until you engage them such as through THF but even then without the defences to back you up, you'll be a dead duck soon enough).
This way, whilst in melee range, a melee isn't going to all of sudden become invincible, but whilst the melee continues, a player can feel safer in melee than trying to just run and hide and not be able to do anything whilst retreating. Whilst those who stay at ranged, are going to feel the full force of attack bypass if they are not melee based (and continue attacking).

But the issue with this approach, is that it takes up server resources to proc each debuff and stack them. So I'm not sure the servers can handle it, or if SSG wants to go this approach. But their current approach is to tackle a problem without applying sorely needed fixes elsewhere first and IS a slight on them for failure to remedy that first.

Anyway, this will at least let players get into melee and not worry as much whilst in melee. But I'm sure there are other ideas out there too, just as good if not better.

J1NG

[Abilbo]

Found a bug, the Greater Shout spell that bards get in Tier 6 of the spells, allows me to use quicken, but not Embolden, or Enlarge, or Heighten. Heighten shouldn't matter, as its a level 6 spell, the highest bards can cast, but Embolden and Enlarge should be able to be applied to it?

Also, Great Shout and Greatest Shout are not healing allies.

Ok, mistaken on the Great shout and Greatest shout not healing allies, was testing in the dojo without being in a party, and it didn't affect the other players, I grouped up, and I had no issues.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

We apologize that the release note about Dodge hasn't made it into the release notes until now. This is a change that is expected to be in Update 55, and we'll be adding information about it to the release notes shortly.


Legendary enemies are being enhanced, so in Legendary quests certain monsters will get the following special traits:


Dodgy: Nimble or rogue-like enemies will get a small amount of Dodge. The amount of Dodge they get is based on the difficulty of the quest (Normal, Hard, Elite, Reaper) and the level of the quest.


Accurate: Ranged and primary fighter-like enemies can get a small amount of Dodge bypass.

Additionally in Legendary Reaper all monsters will get a small Dodge Bypass boost per Skull of the quest that stacks with monsters you benefit from the Accurate trait.


It is worth noting that these bonuses are NOT universal, and only certain enemies in quests will get them. This change is being done to further support Dodge Bypass as a mechanic for players to focus towards, and to help certain enemies become more of a threat against certain types of defensive abilities.

Why are we punishing melee even more? The problems with players doing high skulls have nothing to do with dodge, and everything to do with manipulating the geometry of the game. The real solutions have nothing to do with nerfing an already subpar archetype and everything to do with buffing monster AI. If we really want to fix the numbers then we can give AC bonuses while fixing the AC curve.

Nerfing defenses is a great way to get people to disengage with the game. Nerfing damage? No one bats an eye. We get it. But when you make people one shot and then take away their options, it makes them drop what they're doing.

Whoever is suggesting melee nerfs in the team needs to please talk to the endgame community. I can not imagine they have because we are walkin into a cowpie! This idea needs some tough love. Incorp and Concealment are gone---rather than balancing them we've just deleted them from endgame. This makes endgame players feel ignored and patronized---not rewarded with interesting challenge.

Balance is about plugging holes---not taking a hammer to the game's mechanics.

<3

[J1NG]

Balance is about plugging holes---not taking a hammer to the game's mechanics.

As mentioned in my own reply above. The fact that SSG doesn't want to, or is unable to do anything regarding the melee situation, means they will need to work in alternative methods to do the balancing. Since their method right now is, as you say, a hammer to an issue, that "doesn't" quite sort the sitaution (as it only ever tackles on aspect and doesn't cover enough). Also this particular change only does something IF the other prior issues are resolved FIRST. And if there are no other mechanical changes first that is incoming that changes those other areas, this change only hurts melee and does nothing at all in terms of balance. So it's basically an unnecessary (and unneeded) change, which does beg the question on what type of "balancing" the Devs hope to achieve with this.

J1NG

[Ganak]

This change is being done to further support Dodge Bypass as a mechanic for players to focus towards, and to help certain enemies become more of a threat against certain types of defensive abilities.

So dodge as a defensive ability takes a hit, which I feel disproportionably negatively impacts melee...who struggle with the needed survivability close quarters. I feel we are going backwards...and the above explanation only covers mobs now having more dodge.


If not playing a tank, but a dps focused melee, dodge is the best we have as it takes a significant (tank) investment to achieve meaningful PRR/MRR. Melee further disadvantaged in high reaper...

[Chacka_DDO]

I think it is quite nonsensical to give player characters dodge and concealment incorporeal and then remove it secretly behind the scene with more reaper skulls (same as Spell Resistance when you give monsters ridiculous spell penetration bonuses) than when the character really needs all defensive they can get.
And at the end, it is most likely only two stats that improve your survivability and this is PRR and HP, quite boring if you ask me, how about also nerfing PRR so it's even more boring?
How about getting some creative ideas on how to make more reaper skulls more fun? And if you don't have ideas on how to raise difficult and fun at the same time leave it as it is?
Of course, one might see it different but even if it raises the difficulty when you give monsters in reaper more saves and the ability to one-shot kill you it makes it not more fun for me, more fun for me is when a player has to play in reaper more skilled and not if only his character has to have better stats (more PRR, HP, etc.).
Therefore the new reaper types are an example of how you should do it, more of this, please.

[Tianie]

hmmm, the dodge changes, will make melee even more behind ranged and caster builds.

[Dandonk]

This dodge bypass on mobs is a very very bad thing. You are actually making the game worse in the next update, congratz... or something.

Non-tank melees have a fairly hard time of it already, and you're aiming at making it worse. I really do not understand why you would think this is a good idea.

Oh, and generally, having statistics on your character sheet that don't actually do what they say... that's just a bad thing.

"all monsters in reaper" vs "only certain enemies"... what do you think people actually play at cap? Casual?

I was hoping that the talk about about monster dodge bypass what only a rumour, since you couldn't possibly go through with something this ill-though out, but I should have known better, I suppose.

Oh, and "accidentally" leaving it out smells of trying to get it in without anyone noticing. Shame on you.

[Paddyofurniture]

We apologize that the release note about Dodge hasn't made it into the release notes until now. This is a change that is expected to be in Update 55, and we'll be adding information about it to the release notes shortly.


Legendary enemies are being enhanced, so in Legendary quests certain monsters will get the following special traits:


Dodgy: Nimble or rogue-like enemies will get a small amount of Dodge. The amount of Dodge they get is based on the difficulty of the quest (Normal, Hard, Elite, Reaper) and the level of the quest.


Accurate: Ranged and primary fighter-like enemies can get a small amount of Dodge bypass.

Additionally in Legendary Reaper all monsters will get a small Dodge Bypass boost per Skull of the quest that stacks with monsters you benefit from the Accurate trait.


It is worth noting that these bonuses are NOT universal, and only certain enemies in quests will get them. This change is being done to further support Dodge Bypass as a mechanic for players to focus towards, and to help certain enemies become more of a threat against certain types of defensive abilities.

Many and I mean MOST players are now avoiding playing melee characters due to the changes already made. Ranged characters have the benefit of mostly being out of range and not getting hit all the time; casters and healers as well. The pitiful amount of melee characters being played are generally speaking, high PRR/MRR toons. The quick and nimble characters like Monk, Rouge and Rangers have been dwindling since no-one likes to be dead all the time. If you implement more ways to make to make those lower PRR character die faster, you will see more of them disappear in favor of more crappy ranged builds or quit playing all together.

If you want to make things more challenging, please consider other ways. I have personally parked my melee rogue as in high R content like R5 VOD, he is dead half the time....even with more than 40% dodge.

[Bjond]

From what I can tell, the Bear Traps remain there to be disarmed

Ah, then it's not a nerf to trap-bonuses. I mostly really like trapping, but any time I have to "leash the zerg" to trap, it's a serious problem.

we have no idea "how much" Dodge the bypass is even intended to be

Even considering doing this is a very serious problem. Light & Cloth melee loose the last tidbit of survival they have going for them. Monk in particular would end up with a soft-delete.

I still remember what it was like playing as a newbie and following some of the outdated forum advice of "accuracy is pointless". DPS was poor, but literally every skill was absurdly frustrating to use because they'd whiff just when you needed them.

You can sort-of build around the change by shifting from burst-based DPS to sustained, but that's a soft-delete for most ranged except throwers and most THF builds. They just reworked Bow to be 50% burst. This makes Bow bottom tier again. Really?!

U51 forced every character to rebuild. Gonna do that again in U55, 6 months later? The game is still reeling from it and now they want to hammer the players again?

Unwise doesn't even begin to describe it. The size of the dodge/bypass is moot. The concept alone doesn't work. No one wants to play a game where abilities can do nothing at all based purely on RNG.

[TFerguson]

These ideas are so stupid, it's like we're going full circle where Armor Class is the only thing that determines if you're hit.

[J1NG]

U51 forced every character to rebuild. Gonna do that again in U55, 6 months later? The game is still reeling from it and now they want to hammer the players again?

This is one of the other issues that hasn't been talked about much. For some players, the changes and recovery from the changes are still occuring. Some were more fortunate and were able to make the adjustments quickly. But we are now headed for another "adjustment" period. But this time, it impacts ONLY melee. Which is somewhat eyebrow raising, considering it's melee who needs the help defensively at this time.

Unwise doesn't even begin to describe it. The size of the dodge/bypass is moot. The concept alone doesn't work. No one wants to play a game where abilities can do nothing at all based purely on RNG.

Well, SSG wrote themselves into a corner a long time ago. They messed around with AC, gave enemies Concealment, Incorporeal (but players got aroud that eventuall), so they pumped HP and their damage output. But that can only be done for so long. So they're kinda out of options without creative thinking now with regards to how to challenge players. Dodge remains the one ability not bypassed completely by players. So it remains the only option they have without investing into methods that they can't afford or don't want to work towards (again an issue of money). So SSG "NEEDS" Dodge to maintain challenge as it's the cheapest and quickest option available to them.

However, if enemies are to get Dodge, then players need to bypass properly too, so they're developing properly the Dodge Bypass bonus. But if they're doing that, they want to "long term" preserve Dodge both ways to keep the "challenge" on players. This means they "have" to place the bypass on enemies too. Because they have nothing else to do that won't shoot their own foot straight away.

So... Yeah. This was expected (for me at least). I saw this coming earlier this year when I noticed irregularities with Dodge bypass on some champs.

J1NG

[TFerguson]

Mobs getting dodge is BS because it doesn't affect spells.

[J1NG]

Mobs getting dodge is BS because it doesn't affect spells.

Aye.

Melee? Can get annoyed by misses.
Ranged? Same.
Casters? Yeah, no change there.

All this for:
Melee? Gets oneshot potentially by putting themselves in danger of enemies. (Increasing chance of this at higher levels and Reaper difficulty)
Ranged? No real change. So just annoyance at missing if they don't build for it. (No change at all points)
Casters? Yeah, no change at all. (Same, no change at all points)

I'll be honest with SSG. If you're dead set on pushing this, you need to:

1. Delay U55. You NEED the Dodge debuffs, etc locked down and at a level that players can in theory manage (at ALL levels). Players experienced with Dodge can help with this. But we need your Dodge bypassing WORKING in order to test this. Right now, it's broken because it bypasses ALL Dodge, not a % of Dodge, or given a +X to Bypass Dodge rolls. But ALL Dodge. So obviously we can't help with that right now. Even theoretical Dodge (you need to give us ACTUAL numbers you are thinking of) we could test for differences for general play by deducting the Dodge totals we work with, but again, numbers are needed to be able to even get an idea how it will go.

2. Delay the Dodge change to another update. This permits you to drop U55, and also gives time for players to prep for the Dodge change as well as to expect it later then too. And again, this lets players help you with the next Lam to work on an appropriate Dodge debuff level, since you guys appear to be working with the old pre ED change debuff numbers for other stuff (Concealment and Incorporeal), and those were OK for PRE ED and item nerf changes, but only just barely hanging on POST change (when including Dodge as well).

J1NG

[TFerguson]

Aye.

Melee? Can get annoyed by misses.
Ranged? Same.
Casters? Yeah, no change there.

All this for:
Melee? Gets oneshot potentially by putting themselves in danger of enemies. (Increasing chance of this at higher levels and Reaper difficulty)
Ranged? No real change. So just annoyance at missing if they don't build for it. (No change at all points)
Casters? Yeah, no change at all. (Same, no change at all points)

I'll be honest with SSG. If you're dead set on pushing this, you need to:

1. Delay U55. You NEED the Dodge debuffs, etc locked down and at a level that players can in theory manage (at ALL levels). Players experienced with Dodge can help with this. But we need your Dodge bypassing WORKING in order to test this. Right now, it's broken because it bypasses ALL Dodge, not a % of Dodge, or given a +X to Bypass Dodge rolls. But ALL Dodge. So obviously we can't help with that right now. Even theoretical Dodge (you need to give us ACTUAL numbers you are thinking of) we could test for differences for general play by deducting the Dodge totals we work with, but again, numbers are needed to be able to even get an idea how it will go.

2. Delay the Dodge change to another update. This permits you to drop U55, and also gives time for players to prep for the Dodge change as well as to expect it later then too. And again, this lets players help you with the next Lam to work on an appropriate Dodge debuff level, since you guys appear to be working with the old pre ED change debuff numbers for other stuff (Concealment and Incorporeal), and those were OK for PRE ED and item nerf changes, but only just barely hanging on POST change (when including Dodge as well).

J1NG

3. Throw a Molotov Cocktail in your data center. It'll do less damage to your company than this update.

[Assassination]

What is really concerning is that they are so out of touch with what is going on with the game.

They continually attack, nerf, and destroy melee dps builds that are already the weakest in the game.

Instead of throwing us some survival help in this update, they give mobs a way to bypass our weak defenses, and introduce

another stat we have to incorporate into our builds to be effective against them.

The 2 levels they are adding do absolutely nothing for melee characters, but give more power to their favorite "casters".

It's enough!!! Balance the game!!!!

[GramercyRiff]

More terrible ideas from SSG. You have to design this game better than you are currently.

[Aelonwy]

I don't even play much melee anymore because lightly-armored melee defense is already terrible, so why bypass player dodge? This just makes me want to change ALL my lightly armored melee into ranged (and I had already begun doing that based on how quickly they were dying in epic levels trying to melee hulk-powered mobs).

So let me get this straight you just added a new race (with this expansion) that is best for lightly armored or cloth based melee and you are nerfing the best (and really only credible) defense of the cloth and light armored melee?

You do realize only tanks can accrue enough AC to matter at end game? What's next higher difficulties/reaper skulls going to reduce player AC? PRR debuff per skull?

I just want to see how far you are willing to take this before the players say What's the point?. I mean what exactly is the point of striving for gear/enhancements/etc with +1 more to ANY stat/effect if the game is just going to strip it away. Seems pretty meaningless and futile to me.