U55 Preview 2: Itemization

[Udofire]

So why do the dino crafted weapons get sentience? Aren't crafted weapons not supposed to have sentience?

[Matuse]

Could the black pearls get a rename? Blue pearls maybe? There are already black pearls in the game and I prefer to avoid any possibility of confusion.

Also, add me to: "Requiring a raid to finish your item is bad"

[Lynnabel]

Could the black pearls get a rename? Blue pearls maybe? There are already black pearls in the game and I prefer to avoid any possibility of confusion.

Also, add me to: "Requiring a raid to finish your item is bad"

Black Pearl is a major plot point in the original pen and paper module, so its unlikely to change.

As to your second point, I can definitely see where you're coming from. In my mind this was a spiritual successor to LGS - a raid-tier crafting system with extensive power and customizability. But it sounds like you're not the only one who expected less raid-related stuff. In my head I was threading the needle by allowing the Pirate items to engage with the system in a limited basis, while the Dino Bone stuff was the orange-bordered, raid involved crafting system players would get to spend a lot time noodling on. Furthermore, the ingredients are actually unbound, so in my head if someone had a weapon in mind they'd actually be able to complete it without ever stepping foot in the raid at all.

My initial thoughts are to do 1 of two things:

1: Leave it alone and keep the raid crafting system a raid crafting system, like how LGS works, so our raiders can feel rewarded for their dedication.

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

The big problems with 2 are that since I'd be picking and choosing which ones are raid or non-raid, then it would be sort of arbitrary where some players would need to raid for their dino bone weapon and some would not. Plus, if I put the ones I think players would like in the raid, that means that non-raiders who don't want to buy Black Pearls can get 0% of their augments done instead of 75%.

Its a tricky situation to be sure! But I'm confident there's a solution out there that makes everyone happy :)

[Aelonwy]

Count me as another that does not like making the raid necessary to complete an expansion crafted item. And NO making the ingredients unbound isn't sufficient in my mind as such things are almost NEVER on the AH and only on the Shard exchange. Why should I buy the expansion and have to pay again to access the necessary ingredients to complete the crafting portion of the itemization or be FORCED to raid? Not that drop rates are exceptionally great to begin with but couldn't the "raid ingredients" drop in the quests and saga at a reduced rate to the regular questing ingredients?

[Wezlin]

Leave the ingredients in the raid without question. There needs to be some incentive for pushing raids and pushing harder content. Currently with raid runes you can LH any raid and slowly get whatever you want. What's the incentive for trying harder more difficult content? A smidge higher drop rate? Without that strive to overcome more difficult challenges you lose the feeling of reward. Your content gets destroyed easily and left in the wide mundane world of rinse and repeat.

In regards to unbound ingredients this is a clear and easy path to pay to win on shard exchange. Either remove or limit what is bound. If bound then bound to account would be the most community friendly.

[apocaladle]

Black Pearl is a major plot point in the original pen and paper module, so its unlikely to change.

As to your second point, I can definitely see where you're coming from. In my mind this was a spiritual successor to LGS - a raid-tier crafting system with extensive power and customizability. But it sounds like you're not the only one who expected less raid-related stuff. In my head I was threading the needle by allowing the Pirate items to engage with the system in a limited basis, while the Dino Bone stuff was the orange-bordered, raid involved crafting system players would get to spend a lot time noodling on. Furthermore, the ingredients are actually unbound, so in my head if someone had a weapon in mind they'd actually be able to complete it without ever stepping foot in the raid at all.

My initial thoughts are to do 1 of two things:

1: Leave it alone and keep the raid crafting system a raid crafting system, like how LGS works, so our raiders can feel rewarded for their dedication.

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

The big problems with 2 are that since I'd be picking and choosing which ones are raid or non-raid, then it would be sort of arbitrary where some players would need to raid for their dino bone weapon and some would not. Plus, if I put the ones I think players would like in the raid, that means that non-raiders who don't want to buy Black Pearls can get 0% of their augments done instead of 75%.

Its a tricky situation to be sure! But I'm confident there's a solution out there that makes everyone happy

Main issue with raiding has always been availablity. Pug raids just dont happen very often on my server and its mostly guilds/statics that raid. If we ever get cross server grouping/lfms that would likely ease the issue though I'm sure getting that to work would be no small project for limited engineering resources.

[Aelonwy]

Leave the ingredients in the raid without question. There needs to be some incentive for pushing raids and pushing harder content. Currently with raid runes you can LH any raid and slowly get whatever you want. What's the incentive for trying harder more difficult content? A smidge higher drop rate? Without that strive to overcome more difficult challenges you lose the feeling of reward. Your content gets destroyed easily and left in the wide mundane world of rinse and repeat.

In regards to unbound ingredients this is a clear and easy path to pay to win on shard exchange. Either remove or limit what is bound. If bound then bound to account would be the most community friendly.

I'm all for if you want that unique thing in the raid go raid for it but we're talking about a crafting system that is part of the general itemization of an EXPANSION. If the crafting system were raid-only then I would ignore it as raid-only content that I am very unlikely to ever get ANYTHING from because I do NOT have the time or the ability to run raids regularly. If some portion of Slave Lords had been raid-only to complete the items I would have refused to PURCHASE slave lords. Maybe you don't comprehend but being forced to run the raid to complete an item DEVALUES the entire expansion to me and makes me so very glad that NO ONE in my household has purchased it yet.

[Lynnabel]

I'm all for if you want that unique thing in the raid go raid for it but we're talking about a crafting system that is part of the general itemization of an EXPANSION.

To clarify, the Pirate item slots don't require raid ingredients - you can get your cool pirate stuff and finish that up without ever setting a single foot into the raid. Its only the Dino Bone stuff that needs Black Pearls.

[Entyri]

I'd vote for making it possible to complete the items without the raid entirely, but the raid drops drastically more mats than the quests. Thus reducing the grind and incentivizing raiding. Also, make the raid the only place to get "something special" such as a way to put mythic onto the crafted blanks. This would incentivize the raid, but allow people who cant or wont raid to still get what they want eventually.

On another note, the minor artifacts need to be a fair bit cooler. At the moment they are pretty boring. There is plenty of guards or on hit effects to go around, can stick some of those onto the artifacts and make them a bit exciting. Having all 6 for each stat means you dont favor one build over another, but means they get less interesting. Sticking them in a slot other than a helmet would be cool, but that might make them too strong. They would need higher scaling on the slotted effects so they actually feel useful, I'd also make the case for them to be min level 32 so that getting there feel better. At the moment 32 is just the new cores, no items, no nothing else at that level.

[Wezlin]

I'm all for if you want that unique thing in the raid go raid for it but we're talking about a crafting system that is part of the general itemization of an EXPANSION. If the crafting system were raid-only then I would ignore it as raid-only content that I am very unlikely to ever get ANYTHING from because I do NOT have the time or the ability to run raids regularly. If some portion of Slave Lords had been raid-only to complete the items I would have refused to PURCHASE slave lords. Maybe you don't comprehend but being forced to run the raid to complete an item DEVALUES the entire expansion to me and makes me so very glad that NO ONE in my household has purchased it yet.

I do comprehend very clearly thank you for that. Please see the following below from original post.

1. Players arrive in isle of Dread, collect dino bone bits (ingredients 1-4) from the quests and landscape. They can then trade in those bits for a weapon (assuming they aren't able to randomly stumble upon a blank in their questing).
2. Players can then craft up the Scale and Fang for their weapon using their existing ingredients.
3. Players can do the landscape encounters for the ingredient for their Claw slots
4. Players can do the raid for the ingredient for their Horn slots
5. The raid also drops upgraded weapon blanks so they can get an upgraded weapon with cool funky alternate art
6. The raid also drops dino bone accessories and armor so they can start replacing their Isle of Dread stuff with customized gear if they'd like to do so

You can complete a large portion without running the raid so I would disagree with devaluing the entire expansion. For you it may devalue a portion. Your suggestion would then in return devalue the raid. I would rather see value placed in the raid so it's an agree to disagree.

Thanks!

[Artos_Fabril]

To clarify, the Pirate item slots don't require raid ingredients - you can get your cool pirate stuff and finish that up without ever setting a single foot into the raid. Its only the Dino Bone stuff that needs Black Pearls.

Putting substantial portions of the crafting system into a raid that isn't even going to release with the rest of the expansion doesn't seem like a great idea. Unbound raid-dropped ingredients are fine, in a year or 2 when raiders have the items they want and materials start to show up on the ASAH.

[Aelonwy]

Agree to disagree. Looks to me like there is already plenty of reasons to run the raid without making it a mandatory portion of the crafting to complete an item.

Set Bonus: requires raid ingredients

This is the part that bugs me the most. If a player wants to craft the set bonus on an expansion crafted item its going to require the raid. Because itemization is all about set bonuses and has been since Ravenloft if the item can't be fitted into a set what point does it have? Might as well remain with items from previous expansions that do fit your sets. What's the point? What's the point of making an EXPANSION crafting system that's only fully useable by raiders a smaller subset of players? We're not talking an adventure pack, we're talking about something we buy out of pocket above and beyond the regular game play. Shouldn't as much as possible of that expansion be accessible and desirable to the largest swath of players possible?

[Alled78]

Black Pearl is a major plot point in the original pen and paper module, so its unlikely to change.

As to your second point, I can definitely see where you're coming from. In my mind this was a spiritual successor to LGS - a raid-tier crafting system with extensive power and customizability. But it sounds like you're not the only one who expected less raid-related stuff. In my head I was threading the needle by allowing the Pirate items to engage with the system in a limited basis, while the Dino Bone stuff was the orange-bordered, raid involved crafting system players would get to spend a lot time noodling on. Furthermore, the ingredients are actually unbound, so in my head if someone had a weapon in mind they'd actually be able to complete it without ever stepping foot in the raid at all.

My initial thoughts are to do 1 of two things:

1: Leave it alone and keep the raid crafting system a raid crafting system, like how LGS works, so our raiders can feel rewarded for their dedication.

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

The big problems with 2 are that since I'd be picking and choosing which ones are raid or non-raid, then it would be sort of arbitrary where some players would need to raid for their dino bone weapon and some would not. Plus, if I put the ones I think players would like in the raid, that means that non-raiders who don't want to buy Black Pearls can get 0% of their augments done instead of 75%.

Its a tricky situation to be sure! But I'm confident there's a solution out there that makes everyone happy

I suggest : let the crafting to be completed without raid. Plus raid can give same augment but 10%-20% stronger.
Example
Damage augment from normal quest=12
Damage augment from raid = 14

[droid327]

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

I dont see why you cant just do it like Filigrees work

Have everything be non-raidlocked, but then add incrementally "better" versions in the raid itself. Anyone can "complete" any weapon then, but if you do raid, then you're rewarded with the upgraded version, just like there are rare raid filigrees that are simply "better" versions of the existing non-raid filigrees.

I'm also a heavy supporter of not raidlocking new content. Not everyone is a raider, not everyone should be expected to raid, and that's ok.

You should only need raid-tier gear to deal with the challenge of high-end raids, anyway. Keep raiding in its own enclosed ecosystem.

[Kza]

For me personally everything is how hard the raid is.

Is it a friendly pugable raid like shroud, tempest spine etc?

Or a brutal one like heroic abbot?

AWESOME FUN if it will be the raid all can join and have fun with and all can participiate. (Even better if like lgs no more loot after elite so it is the PUGGERS dream)

Bummer if it is hard and only gets better loot the more skulls you drive it up= the expansion just makes the big guilds have fun and all others wondered where all ppl are.

Plz plz have raid easy, fun and forgiving for non top tier builds and non top tier fast "meta" players.

So all can have fun in the raid and have a good/great chance seeing lots of lfms for it to join :-)

[Caarb]

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

The big problems with 2 are that since I'd be picking and choosing which ones are raid or non-raid, then it would be sort of arbitrary where some players would need to raid for their dino bone weapon and some would not. Plus, if I put the ones I think players would like in the raid, that means that non-raiders who don't want to buy Black Pearls can get 0% of their augments done instead of 75%.

Its a tricky situation to be sure! But I'm confident there's a solution out there that makes everyone happy

3: Have a separate Raid Slot that gives 0.25W and upgrade each effect to raid strength (usually 1 step higher than named loot)

[rabidfox]

My initial thoughts are to do 1 of two things:

1: Leave it alone and keep the raid crafting system a raid crafting system, like how LGS works, so our raiders can feel rewarded for their dedication.

2: Split some of the Isle of Dread augments in each major slot out so that some of them require raid ingredients and some do not, so its technically possible to "complete" an item without raiding or purchasing raid ingredients.

3rd option could be to create a single non-raid horn that gives some generic stat so those who don't raid won't always be staring at an empty slot (until they buy the mats of the AH to build better).

[Wezlin]

However you slice you need to have incentive in the raid and power creep that comes with it. It's the nature of any game hardest content should have the most reward.

[Wizard1406]

There are 6 total ingredients from the Isle of Dread: 4 quest fossils, 1 landscape fossil, and 1 raid ingredient (Black Pearls). There are 5 augment types: Scale, Fang, Claw, Horn, and Set Bonus.

Scale: requires quest ingredients
Fang: requires quest ingredients
Claw: requires landscape ingredients
Horn: requires raid ingredients
Set Bonus: requires raid ingredients

You may barter for the non-raid dinosaur bone crafting blank weapons from the dinosaur bone augment trader (the blue border weapons). The 6 artifacts available (all of which are helmets with a set bonus slot) will drop in any chest in Isle of Dread like all Artifacts tend to do.

The raid will drop the raid tier versions of the weapon blanks, the dinosaur bone armors/helmets/accessory blanks, as well as Black Pearls.

@Lynnabel,

The problem with making some ingredients raid exclusive is:

- Population is low per server, especially outside of US prime time, it can be very hard to fill a raid outside of US evenings.
- Raid timer is very long, 3 days even for VIPs, further reducing the number of eligible players

So please think of the players from Europe, Asia, Australia etc and don't make any ingredients raid-exclusive. Thank you.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

After going through the loot I strongly feel that for a DC caster (or a Nuker) that there is not enough reason to farm any of it.

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WEAPONS:

The caster sticks are not an increase over LGS if you are looking for the LGS procs.

LGS Hamp/Affirmation is just a better affirmation stick given the stacking healing amp.

MRR stripping can be done with the Hunt or be Hunted fire stick, and that stick gives spell lore. Do I want to give up my fire lore item for a +2 exceptional charisma bonus if I'm a fire savant? Nope. If I'm an ice savant then I'm already better off using the KT staff. Swapping to MRR reducing LGS stick and another stick with Vacuum is simple enough on bosses to stack up damage bonus before swapping back.

ARMOUR:

The helmet can't replace an LGS crit damage item because it lacks the enhancement bonus to crit damage. Not including the scale bonus is a big mistake in my opinion. Making it an artifact is even more restricting on gearing. Getting one more artifact slot is not enough vertical progression to significantly incentivize this item.

The sharn artifacts (Regalport and Zarash) are key to any build. The Sands artifacts flopped because they didn't do something different than those two in a way which was at least a horizontal movement which opened up another gear set. Quality +2 Spell DCs are very strong. Why would I take that off for a helm which can't even replace my LGS crit damage gloves?

CLOAK:

Swap slot for spell absorb---I'd rather keep my set bonuses when swapping. Set bonuses confine design decision and have always been detrimental to the game.

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None of the bonuses are substantive to me though which suggests: 1) lack of new effects, 2) not enough vertical creep. I dislike vertical creep so the only answer is to make the system have way more augments and be much more flexible. Raid craftable rings are much more interesting to me than cloaks. Making them artifacts makes them LESS flexible. <3

How is the level cap going up and the gear becoming less powerful (in the context of BEST IN SLOT) than previous gear sets?

<3

The community could give SSG a healthy context of what is BIS so that discussions about gear and reasonable progression are healthy. This is important IMO since gear is a huge part of the game.

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Not a single piece of Saltmarsh gear affected BIS sets for casters. Please don't let this happen again.

<3