Level 31 Feat Suggestion - Elemental Bypass

[Arjen]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

[hale99]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

Negative energy isn't an element but in all seriousness I like the idea of that for a feat. It helps out a lot of builds. I have to take the improved scorch in the Tielfing tree as my Light/Fire Nuker for the fire bypass. That would help free up those enhancement points.

[LittleLexi]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

Can I ask why you think having immunity bypass is particularly necessary? Does a Cleric/FVS at that level not have enough access to alternative spells and abilities through enhancements, feats & destinies to make do in those situations where this would matter?

Also– What is the point of mobs having immunities in the first place if they are so readily nullified? It makes that feature rather redundant, does it not? And homogenizes them somewhat in terms of how they play, and how we interact with them. We already have it rather good, as players, in terms of the challenges we face(or don't) within dungeons.

[Chacka_DDO]

Actually, I think the whole idea of bypassing elemental resistances or even immunities is wrong and should be nuked from orbit.
I remember when we had "transmuting" weapons that bypassed all kinds of DR (this kind of weapon did pierce bludgeon and slash damage and also good chaotic etc and all kinds of material damage), this was fur sure convenient for players but at the same time very lame and it was removed for good reason from DDO.
It should be a part of playing good and game knowledge to use the right weapon and the right spells on monsters to do the best damage.

[Weemadarthur]

Actually, I think the whole idea of bypassing elemental resistances or even immunities is wrong and should be nuked from orbit.
I remember when we had "transmuting" weapons that bypassed all kinds of DR (this kind of weapon did pierce bludgeon and slash damage and also good chaotic etc and all kinds of material damage), this was fur sure convenient for players but at the same time very lame and it was removed for good reason from DDO.
It should be a part of playing good and game knowledge to use the right weapon and the right spells on monsters to do the best damage.

Although I agree with what you say here on a personal level I have a split verdict on this one. If immunity bypass is going to stay in the game in any form for some classes then an option to "balance" the other caster classes does make sense. So although I personally would prefer it if they removed all elemental resistance bypassing completely the fact that that's extremely unlikely to happen (and would face major backlash now if it did) I think a legendary feat is probably the best place to put it for general use.

In short my preference would be to remove it completely but if that isn't going to be the case then there should be an option for every race and class to obtain it rather than just favor the few that can atm.

[Chacka_DDO]

Although I agree with what you say here on a personal level I have a split verdict on this one. If immunity bypass is going to stay in the game in any form for some classes then an option to "balance" the other caster classes does make sense. So although I personally would prefer it if they removed all elemental resistance bypassing completely the fact that that's extremely unlikely to happen (and would face major backlash now if it did) I think a legendary feat is probably the best place to put it for general use.

In short my preference would be to remove it completely but if that isn't going to be the case then there should be an option for every race and class to obtain it rather than just favor the few that can atm.

Yes, that's the problem, it turns into a balance problem if one class has that it is such an advantage that every class wants it in the end.
It was the same with the improved crit profile only barbarian got at the start and at the end, every class got that with the result that it is nothing special anymore and everyone just does more damage.
But especially for the elemental immunities and resistance bypass, it is even worse if everyone has that there is in the end no point in having different damage types at all, you do just damage and this is lame.
Therefore I would strongly recommend removing this for all classes and finding other ways to give players a way to do a different kind of damage if a monster is immune to your best damage spells.
And yes even if I can understand that you say if x classes have immunity bypass everyone should have that for the sake of balance but objectively the situation gets worse when more have that.

[eightspoons]

I have to agree with those saying immunity bypass is bad. I wish it would just go away, but unfortunately, the likelihood of that happening now is distinctly unlikely.

Can't see the issue with casters being forced to make use of an element that is not their absolute top DPS.

Tying in slightly, it's the same with the very few underwater quests and fire. Because a few people made a huge amount of noise, now fire works (albeit slightly less effectively) under water. I hated that change.

[Arjen]

Can I ask why you think having immunity bypass is particularly necessary? Does a Cleric/FVS at that level not have enough access to alternative spells and abilities through enhancements, feats & destinies to make do in those situations where this would matter?

Also– What is the point of mobs having immunities in the first place if they are so readily nullified? It makes that feature rather redundant, does it not? And homogenizes them somewhat in terms of how they play, and how we interact with them. We already have it rather good, as players, in terms of the challenges we face(or don't) within dungeons.

It's necessary because without you're functionally useless in content that has monsters/bosses that are immune. I run a lot of r10 content and as a fire cleric (for example) DOJ Flag, any dungeons with Golems (Raven at the door, etc) you literally can't do anything. Tiefling is fine for that particular use case, but I think when we're getting to "legendary" status it makes a lot of sense to stop worrying about that restriction and let us play the builds that we like. Why should sorcs and druids have all the fun?

[Kayze]

It's necessary because without you're functionally useless in content that has monsters/bosses that are immune. I run a lot of r10 content and as a fire cleric (for example) DOJ Flag, any dungeons with Golems (Raven at the door, etc) you literally can't do anything. Tiefling is fine for that particular use case, but I think when we're getting to "legendary" status it makes a lot of sense to stop worrying about that restriction and let us play the builds that we like. Why should sorcs and druids have all the fun?

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

[Arjen]

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

You're clearly not playing r10s. You're not going to Blade Barrier and Cometfall redname golems and do anything close to reasonable damage. What if the party comp is 4 divines casters - it's happened to groups I've been and you either swap to another character that can actually do damage or punt. That's not legendary, it just isn't fun.

[Kayze]

You're clearly not playing r10s. You're not going to Blade Barrier and Cometfall redname golems and do anything close to reasonable damage. What if the party comp is 4 divines casters - it's happened to groups I've been and you either swap to another character that can actually do damage or punt. That's not legendary, it just isn't fun.

If you are doing R10s and you aren't geared to do adequate damage in a non-fire capacity, then perhaps you need to get better gear, skip the quest, or do a lower reaper difficulty.

Unfortunately as difficultly scales this does not work. Iron golems in particular especially named ones become impossible to kill. FVS for example if they are running draconic have to drop their mantle, and any fire damage will of course heal them, so any procs etc.. must be removed. Spells like blade barrier were never really upgraded they do pretty low damage. Have you tried those tactics in something like R4? I know on my wizard a fight with a couple of named iron golems on R4 you can dump 5K spell points and have to drink pots to kill them with damage spells which is all that works.

I never said it would be fast. Trying to take a fire cleric through a quest with mandatory iron golems is hammering a square peg through a round hole. If the OP is unwilling to avoid the quest or take group members, using untyped damage spells or whacking them would do just fine. Between cure poison and sla heals, you should be able to attrition kill the golem.

[EinarMal]

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

Unfortunately as difficultly scales this does not work. Iron golems in particular especially named ones become impossible to kill. FVS for example if they are running draconic have to drop their mantle, and any fire damage will of course heal them, so any procs etc.. must be removed. Spells like blade barrier were never really upgraded they do pretty low damage. Have you tried those tactics in something like R4? I know on my wizard a fight with a couple of named iron golems on R4 you can dump 5K spell points and have to drink pots to kill them with damage spells which is all that works.

Taking out a weapon post level 20 also that will never actually work in harder difficulty.

I would be for removing immunity bypass with some monster balance changes.

1. Don't let player damage heal monsters (so at least if you have a iron golem in pack of mobs you don't have to potentially unequip gear and mantles etc...)
2. Don't let deathward prevent negative damage, just death effects
3. More diverse spell options, Druid for example barely have any spells worth taking a lot of levels as they are only usable in certain forms
4. Consider less immunities and just more energy resistance, like -15% damage or something

I don't think in an MMO monster immunities make much sense, especially with the extreme specialization required. We are forced to pick an element with the destinies, feats, gear, etc...it is pretty lame that after taking two feats, spending 41+ enhancement points, and destiny points that if you did all of that on a Wizard with negative damage that simply doesn't work on probably 30% of the mobs you fight at all.

[Arjen]

Unfortunately as difficultly scales this does not work. Iron golems in particular especially named ones become impossible to kill. FVS for example if they are running draconic have to drop their mantle, and any fire damage will of course heal them, so any procs etc.. must be removed. Spells like blade barrier were never really upgraded they do pretty low damage. Have you tried those tactics in something like R4? I know on my wizard a fight with a couple of named iron golems on R4 you can dump 5K spell points and have to drink pots to kill them with damage spells which is all that works.

Taking out a weapon post level 20 also that will never actually work in harder difficulty.

I would be for removing immunity bypass with some monster balance changes.

1. Don't let player damage heal monsters (so at least if you have a iron golem in pack of mobs you don't have to potentially unequip gear and mantles etc...)
2. Don't let deathward prevent negative damage, just death effects
3. More diverse spell options, Druid for example barely have any spells worth taking a lot of levels as they are only usable in certain forms
4. Consider less immunities and just more energy resistance, like -15% damage or something

I don't think in an MMO monster immunities make much sense, especially with the extreme specialization required. We are forced to pick an element with the destinies, feats, gear, etc...it is pretty lame that after taking two feats, spending 41+ enhancement points, and destiny points that if you did all of that on a Wizard with negative damage that simply doesn't work on probably 30% of the mobs you fight at all.

Yes - all of this!

[LittleLexi]

It's necessary because without you're functionally useless in content that has monsters/bosses that are immune. I run a lot of r10 content and as a fire cleric (for example) DOJ Flag, any dungeons with Golems (Raven at the door, etc) you literally can't do anything. Tiefling is fine for that particular use case, but I think when we're getting to "legendary" status it makes a lot of sense to stop worrying about that restriction and let us play the builds that we like. Why should sorcs and druids have all the fun?

So you want the game to become easier because of Reaper mode :P And how about those Legendary monsters? Maybe they should get Legendary Uber Super Double No-Take-Backsies Immunity!

Jesting aside – I understand where you are coming from. Should it not be the expectation, though, that at R10, of all difficulties– that players might encounter some stumbling blocks? And that this, of all places, is where party composition should come into the equation, in order to cover all the bases?

I get that some classes already do this. But I'm not of the mind that every build should be able to do everything. That is dull. I doubt they will remove immunities from the game though, so I'm fine with a compromise such as having abilities that strip this where it fits. Specializations like the Elemental Savants, or Primal Avatar(with investment) are suitable, in this regard. But I agree with another poster that it should not be automatic, and that it should take some work to achieve. Something like a monk finisher that did this, would suffice. Or– for spellcasters: having to "prep" the mob first with spells or debuffs– even if they did take a feat or enhancement that enables the possibility.

[Kayze]

Jesting aside – I understand where you are coming from. Should it not be the expectation, though, that at R10, of all difficulties– that players might encounter some stumbling blocks? And that this, of all places, is where party composition should come into the equation, in order to cover all the bases?

I get that some classes already do this. But I'm not of the mind that every build should be able to do everything.

^This is my point exactly. Not everyone should be able to do every single quest solo. Get help. Every character has something they do well.

This is why Melee and Ranged have multiple ways to address immunity with feats, gear, and augments.
Some chosen spell casters have a way to deal with immunity while others do not.

I think you're missing the point. DDO was designed to be a game that took advantage of a party system. While some people have managed to solo quests at a high difficulty (there are tons of R10 solo videos on youtube for example), the game isn't balanced around that. Just because a quest is a stumbling block for a character does not mean that said character will not absolutely dominate another quest.

[Arjen]

So you want the game to become easier because of Reaper mode :P And how about those Legendary monsters? Maybe they should get Legendary Uber Super Double No-Take-Backsies Immunity!

Jesting aside – I understand where you are coming from. Should it not be the expectation, though, that at R10, of all difficulties– that players might encounter some stumbling blocks? And that this, of all places, is where party composition should come into the equation, in order to cover all the bases?

I get that some classes already do this. But I'm not of the mind that every build should be able to do everything. That is dull. I doubt they will remove immunities from the game though, so I'm fine with a compromise such as having abilities that strip this where it fits. Specializations like the Elemental Savants, or Primal Avatar(with investment) are suitable, in this regard. But I agree with another poster that it should not be automatic, and that it should take some work to achieve. Something like a monk finisher that did this, would suffice. Or– for spellcasters: having to "prep" the mob first with spells or debuffs– even if they did take a feat or enhancement that enables the possibility.

Not easier at all - just more diversity of options. Right now that option for me is ice druid and it's really, really good. I'd *love* to be able to have that same experience on a fire/negative cleric at cap.

To your point - immunity stripping is "prepping" the mobs as you have to hit them with a spell of that type before they are debuffed. That's what I'm asking for as a feat.

[Kayze]

Not easier at all - just more diversity of options. Right now that option for me is ice druid and it's really, really good. I'd *love* to be able to have that same experience on a fire/negative cleric at cap.

To your point - immunity stripping is "prepping" the mobs as you have to hit them with a spell of that type before they are debuffed. That's what I'm asking for as a feat.

The option to strip fire immunity on a fire cleric already exists: tiefling.