Level 31 Feat Suggestion - Elemental Bypass

[Arjen]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

[hale99]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

Negative energy isn't an element but in all seriousness I like the idea of that for a feat. It helps out a lot of builds. I have to take the improved scorch in the Tielfing tree as my Light/Fire Nuker for the fire bypass. That would help free up those enhancement points.

[LittleLexi]

A feat to select an element (or to add an additional element for those that would like 2) would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that Fire Electric/Negative Clerics & FVS would benefit immensely from a way to bypass immunities.

Can I ask why you think having immunity bypass is particularly necessary? Does a Cleric/FVS at that level not have enough access to alternative spells and abilities through enhancements, feats & destinies to make do in those situations where this would matter?

Also– What is the point of mobs having immunities in the first place if they are so readily nullified? It makes that feature rather redundant, does it not? And homogenizes them somewhat in terms of how they play, and how we interact with them. We already have it rather good, as players, in terms of the challenges we face(or don't) within dungeons.

[Chacka_DDO]

Actually, I think the whole idea of bypassing elemental resistances or even immunities is wrong and should be nuked from orbit.
I remember when we had "transmuting" weapons that bypassed all kinds of DR (this kind of weapon did pierce bludgeon and slash damage and also good chaotic etc and all kinds of material damage), this was fur sure convenient for players but at the same time very lame and it was removed for good reason from DDO.
It should be a part of playing good and game knowledge to use the right weapon and the right spells on monsters to do the best damage.

[Arjen]

Can I ask why you think having immunity bypass is particularly necessary? Does a Cleric/FVS at that level not have enough access to alternative spells and abilities through enhancements, feats & destinies to make do in those situations where this would matter?

Also– What is the point of mobs having immunities in the first place if they are so readily nullified? It makes that feature rather redundant, does it not? And homogenizes them somewhat in terms of how they play, and how we interact with them. We already have it rather good, as players, in terms of the challenges we face(or don't) within dungeons.

It's necessary because without you're functionally useless in content that has monsters/bosses that are immune. I run a lot of r10 content and as a fire cleric (for example) DOJ Flag, any dungeons with Golems (Raven at the door, etc) you literally can't do anything. Tiefling is fine for that particular use case, but I think when we're getting to "legendary" status it makes a lot of sense to stop worrying about that restriction and let us play the builds that we like. Why should sorcs and druids have all the fun?

[Weemadarthur]

Actually, I think the whole idea of bypassing elemental resistances or even immunities is wrong and should be nuked from orbit.
I remember when we had "transmuting" weapons that bypassed all kinds of DR (this kind of weapon did pierce bludgeon and slash damage and also good chaotic etc and all kinds of material damage), this was fur sure convenient for players but at the same time very lame and it was removed for good reason from DDO.
It should be a part of playing good and game knowledge to use the right weapon and the right spells on monsters to do the best damage.

Although I agree with what you say here on a personal level I have a split verdict on this one. If immunity bypass is going to stay in the game in any form for some classes then an option to "balance" the other caster classes does make sense. So although I personally would prefer it if they removed all elemental resistance bypassing completely the fact that that's extremely unlikely to happen (and would face major backlash now if it did) I think a legendary feat is probably the best place to put it for general use.

In short my preference would be to remove it completely but if that isn't going to be the case then there should be an option for every race and class to obtain it rather than just favor the few that can atm.

[Kayze]

It's necessary because without you're functionally useless in content that has monsters/bosses that are immune. I run a lot of r10 content and as a fire cleric (for example) DOJ Flag, any dungeons with Golems (Raven at the door, etc) you literally can't do anything. Tiefling is fine for that particular use case, but I think when we're getting to "legendary" status it makes a lot of sense to stop worrying about that restriction and let us play the builds that we like. Why should sorcs and druids have all the fun?

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

[Chacka_DDO]

Although I agree with what you say here on a personal level I have a split verdict on this one. If immunity bypass is going to stay in the game in any form for some classes then an option to "balance" the other caster classes does make sense. So although I personally would prefer it if they removed all elemental resistance bypassing completely the fact that that's extremely unlikely to happen (and would face major backlash now if it did) I think a legendary feat is probably the best place to put it for general use.

In short my preference would be to remove it completely but if that isn't going to be the case then there should be an option for every race and class to obtain it rather than just favor the few that can atm.

Yes, that's the problem, it turns into a balance problem if one class has that it is such an advantage that every class wants it in the end.
It was the same with the improved crit profile only barbarian got at the start and at the end, every class got that with the result that it is nothing special anymore and everyone just does more damage.
But especially for the elemental immunities and resistance bypass, it is even worse if everyone has that there is in the end no point in having different damage types at all, you do just damage and this is lame.
Therefore I would strongly recommend removing this for all classes and finding other ways to give players a way to do a different kind of damage if a monster is immune to your best damage spells.
And yes even if I can understand that you say if x classes have immunity bypass everyone should have that for the sake of balance but objectively the situation gets worse when more have that.

[eightspoons]

I have to agree with those saying immunity bypass is bad. I wish it would just go away, but unfortunately, the likelihood of that happening now is distinctly unlikely.

Can't see the issue with casters being forced to make use of an element that is not their absolute top DPS.

Tying in slightly, it's the same with the very few underwater quests and fire. Because a few people made a huge amount of noise, now fire works (albeit slightly less effectively) under water. I hated that change.

[YUTANG75]

I am also in the anti bypass group. Just recently got the elemental form on my air sorc. It feels more boring to play, all I have to do against lightning immune mobs is to whip out a weak electric loop first to strip immunity before following up with chain lightning and/or dragon breath.

One thing I would like to put out though is that I think automatic bypass should be removed from the game, like the Sorcerer capstone, Alchemist T5 and the Druid spells. I am fine with the Sorcerer Awaken Weakness abilities because they are single target and have a moderate cooldown. The Artificer's method is also fine in my opinion because it requires hitting stuff with a rune-arm shot first, the ease of which depends on your choice of rune arm, and because Artis are much more pigeon holed into electric type damage (Arcane Tempest and Tact Det being the only non-electric damaging spells worth using).

If removing immunity stripping would hurt spellcasters too much there are so many ways to support/promote non-primary spell power casting.

I have to agree with those saying immunity bypass is bad. I wish it would just go away, but unfortunately, the likelihood of that happening now is distinctly unlikely.

Idk, it seems to me that sentiment has shifted noticeably compared to even a few months ago already.

[eightspoons]

Idk, it seems to me that sentiment has shifted noticeably compared to even a few months ago already.

Perhaps ... but can you imagine the uproar if they were to go back on this change?

'What a MASSIVE nerf to sorcerer! Now I can't kill the fire mobz with fire! I'm basically useless! Wah, waah, waaaah!' - for example. Ugh!

(Sorry for hyperbole).

[MaeveTuohy]

Perhaps ... but can you imagine the uproar if they were to go back on this change?

'What a MASSIVE nerf to sorcerer! Now I can't kill the fire mobz with fire! I'm basically useless! Wah, waah, waaaah!' - for example. Ugh!

(Sorry for hyperbole).

True, nobody complains like a sorc player denied god mode.

I also vote against immunity stripping outside of Awaken (and similar). At best, a Legendary feat that essentially mimicked Awaken (single target, moderate cooldown) might be okay.

[fatherpirate]

Kinda wish, Reaper play and epic levels had their own servers.
(reason) - when ever they do something new to the endgame
content, it somehow screws up the heroic content.

If Reapers and Epic was limited to specialty servers, it
would limit the damage.

Just my opinion

[Arjen]

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

You're clearly not playing r10s. You're not going to Blade Barrier and Cometfall redname golems and do anything close to reasonable damage. What if the party comp is 4 divines casters - it's happened to groups I've been and you either swap to another character that can actually do damage or punt. That's not legendary, it just isn't fun.

[EinarMal]

Every build has weaknesses and have ways to deal with them. You have other non-fire damage spells that you should also be using even without focusing on them from the high base damage. Iron golems are strong against elemental damage. Deal with them with physical attacks or spells that deal physical damage. The advantage of cleric is that unlike a fvs, you can (and should) modify your spell list for threats.

Blade barrier does slashing damage. Cometfall does bludgeoning. Destruction does bane damage. DoT spells work just fine (divine punishment), albeit at 50% reduced effectiveness. At legendary levels you also have the option to take ruin/great ruin. Or pull out a weapon (ideally with construct bane) and hit them (divine power). Or let party members deal with them.

Unfortunately as difficultly scales this does not work. Iron golems in particular especially named ones become impossible to kill. FVS for example if they are running draconic have to drop their mantle, and any fire damage will of course heal them, so any procs etc.. must be removed. Spells like blade barrier were never really upgraded they do pretty low damage. Have you tried those tactics in something like R4? I know on my wizard a fight with a couple of named iron golems on R4 you can dump 5K spell points and have to drink pots to kill them with damage spells which is all that works.

Taking out a weapon post level 20 also that will never actually work in harder difficulty.

I would be for removing immunity bypass with some monster balance changes.

1. Don't let player damage heal monsters (so at least if you have a iron golem in pack of mobs you don't have to potentially unequip gear and mantles etc...)
2. Don't let deathward prevent negative damage, just death effects
3. More diverse spell options, Druid for example barely have any spells worth taking a lot of levels as they are only usable in certain forms
4. Consider less immunities and just more energy resistance, like -15% damage or something

I don't think in an MMO monster immunities make much sense, especially with the extreme specialization required. We are forced to pick an element with the destinies, feats, gear, etc...it is pretty lame that after taking two feats, spending 41+ enhancement points, and destiny points that if you did all of that on a Wizard with negative damage that simply doesn't work on probably 30% of the mobs you fight at all.

[EinarMal]

Kinda wish, Reaper play and epic levels had their own servers.
(reason) - when ever they do something new to the endgame
content, it somehow screws up the heroic content.

If Reapers and Epic was limited to specialty servers, it
would limit the damage.

Just my opinion

Immunity bypass honestly has very little to do with heroics, Sorc don't get it until level 20, and Druids at 17. I guess Alchemists get early, and sorc can bypass one mob on a timer earlier. If you do Tiefling you get it from start, but that locks you into one race.

On R1 heroics it is completely irrelevant, it is only as you ramp up difficulty that it really matters much.

One point of Tiefling, at higher difficulties it doesn't work that well the duration is too short. So FVS trying to kill a name golem with fire as a Tiefling will end up healing them and having to reapply the scorch. If you have Draconic on you can't actually kill them even as a Tiefling. You have to have another source for scorch so a Wizard works to keep the immunity stripped.

[Arjen]

Unfortunately as difficultly scales this does not work. Iron golems in particular especially named ones become impossible to kill. FVS for example if they are running draconic have to drop their mantle, and any fire damage will of course heal them, so any procs etc.. must be removed. Spells like blade barrier were never really upgraded they do pretty low damage. Have you tried those tactics in something like R4? I know on my wizard a fight with a couple of named iron golems on R4 you can dump 5K spell points and have to drink pots to kill them with damage spells which is all that works.

Taking out a weapon post level 20 also that will never actually work in harder difficulty.

I would be for removing immunity bypass with some monster balance changes.

1. Don't let player damage heal monsters (so at least if you have a iron golem in pack of mobs you don't have to potentially unequip gear and mantles etc...)
2. Don't let deathward prevent negative damage, just death effects
3. More diverse spell options, Druid for example barely have any spells worth taking a lot of levels as they are only usable in certain forms
4. Consider less immunities and just more energy resistance, like -15% damage or something

I don't think in an MMO monster immunities make much sense, especially with the extreme specialization required. We are forced to pick an element with the destinies, feats, gear, etc...it is pretty lame that after taking two feats, spending 41+ enhancement points, and destiny points that if you did all of that on a Wizard with negative damage that simply doesn't work on probably 30% of the mobs you fight at all.

Yes - all of this!

[Aelonwy]

I'm not a big sorc player, I prefer casters that can change their spells at shrines like wiz and cleric... however melee/ranged already get feats that bypass various DR for mobs the Epic Destiny feats Pierce Adamantine/Byeshk/Cold Iron/Silver feats or at the click of a short cut almost instantly anywhere in the game a melee/ranged can swiftly change weapons. There are also various enhancements which give melee/ranged players their character's alignment to their wielded weapon. So I understand why excessively specialized casters (and let's be real here DDO has been pushing all classes to be hyper specialized for a long time) would want a method be it feat or enhancement to continue to play within their hyper-specialized mode just as a melee or ranged does NOT WANT to have to put down their very special, well-fed sentient weapon to attack something with DR via metal or alignment. AND DR on mobs for a melee/ranged is nowhere near as onerous as an Elemental or magic type immunity is for a caster but sure let's have feat/enhancement support for one and not the other. /s

I also play melee and ranged so before you think this is just caster support think of it more as someone that plays a broad range of characters (14) that prefers the classes to be ALL playable and fun in ALL content as fairly balanced as the devs can manage. Now I do agree melee/ranged need more CC, particularly CC that affects a group simultaneously as the game is designed with fewer and fewer creatures fought individually and more and more with massive mob spawns and mob waves.

Also suggesting that a player that has sunk all their class levels, feats and enhancements, and geared for casting should equip a melee or ranged weapon to fight particular mobs... OKAY but ONLY if we get some mobs that can ONLY be fought with magic i.e. your melee/ranged is going to have to put down their sentient weapon and fight with a UMD'ed fireball wand or scroll down the mob... does that sound like fun? because melee-ing an epic golem on a caster in a robe is NOT.

So yeah I would support such a feat in epics/legendary for casters where mobs have far too many hit points for alternatives to be FUN... oh gee look its the same levels melee/ranged get access to DR feats, funny that.

[EinarMal]

I'm not a big sorc player, I prefer casters that can change their spells at shrines like wiz and cleric... however melee/ranged already get feats that bypass various DR for mobs the Epic Destiny feats Pierce Adamantine/Byeshk/Cold Iron/Silver feats or at the click of a short cut almost instantly anywhere in the game a melee/ranged can swiftly change weapons. There are also various enhancements which give melee/ranged players their character's alignment to their wielded weapon. So I understand why excessively specialized casters (and let's be real here DDO has been pushing all classes to be hyper specialized for a long time) would want a method be it feat or enhancement to continue to play within their hyper-specialized mode just as a melee or ranged does NOT WANT to have to put down their very special, well-fed sentient weapon to attack something with DR via metal or alignment. AND DR on mobs for a melee/ranged is nowhere near as onerous as an Elemental or magic type immunity is for a caster but sure let's have feat/enhancement support for one and not the other. /s

I also play melee and ranged so before you think this is just caster support think of it more as someone that plays a broad range of characters (14) that prefers the classes to be ALL playable and fun in ALL content as fairly balanced as the devs can manage. Now I do agree melee/ranged need more CC, particularly CC that affects a group simultaneously as the game is designed with fewer and fewer creatures fought individually and more and more with massive mob spawns and mob waves.

Also suggesting that a player that has sunk all their class levels, feats and enhancements, and geared for casting should equip a melee or ranged weapon to fight particular mobs... OKAY but ONLY if we get some mobs that can ONLY be fought with magic i.e. your melee/ranged is going to have to put down their sentient weapon and fight with a UMD'ed fireball wand or scroll down the mob... does that sound like fun? because melee-ing an epic golem on a caster in a robe is NOT.

So yeah I would support such a feat in epics/legendary for casters where mobs have far too many hit points for alternatives to be FUN... oh gee look its the same levels melee/ranged get access to DR feats, funny that.

These are all really good points. I would be ok with secondary options for spells if they were truly viable. But the notion of using blade barrier to kill iron golems in difficult content is clearly not viable today. I can't melee a deathwarded named mob in legendary content on R4 and contribute on a Wizard without changing the entire build.

I think the current state is actually the worst, for some reason they have divided casters into haves and have nots, and won't either remove or broaden the ability. To use a melee analogy only half the classes have critical chance/damage enhancements basically. So Wizards/Clerics/FVS/Bard/Warlocks are much worse off if you are trying to run certain quests, you can choose Tiefling, but that works only if you can kill the mob in about 6s, and want to use fire unless you have a second scorch spell.

[LurkingVeteran]

The fundamental problem is that due to all the power creep, the only way to build a functional DPS caster in DDO is to hyperspecialize in one element. This is not how it works in pen and paper D&D (and not how it was in early DDO either). The DPS loss of casting a spell of another element is just too high to be viable in most cases. DDO also has more elemental immunities than pen and paper (in part because so much of the game is played in epics, which is more of a bonus setting in pen and paper). This is a toxic combination, being useless against certain mobs is very frustrating.

Unless they address one of the two core problems above, immunity breaking is here to stay. That said, it might have been better to make it more more progressive, i.e. first hit gets 30% damage bypass, second 60%, 90, 100 etc. Now it's: 0%, 100%.

Optionally, enhancements like the Tiefling one that additionally lets you share crit % for another element would be useful as a legendary feat.