True Seeing needs an update!

[Buddha5440]

As the DC's of secret doors has risen astronomically over the last many updates, True Seeing has become less and less worthwhile. It really need to be updated to match the DC's of current secret doors (or at least work in tandem with +search and +Ins Search bonuses). Especially since the Rogue hirelings (the few that there are) can't even find a lot of the secret doors anymore

[Enoach]

I'm actually not for True Seeing advancing "Search", except when it comes to magically concealed secret doors

I do agree that the enhancement to search from spells like "Detect Secret Doors" should be improved, maybe a caster level improvement, or a unique enhancement type that stacks.

[Buddha5440]

That's what I meant.

As it is now it just let's you find doors with a DC of 30 or less. It doesn't add to your search skill, you just use the higher of the two (and TS is auto not active search). If you are actively searching, TS should add to your search skill for doors only, not traps. I hate it when I or a hireling (sometimes even a rogue hire) can sense something (Wis based spot check) but still cannot find it (Int based search check) even with TS.

[yfernbottom]

I'm actually not for True Seeing advancing "Search", except when it comes to magically concealed secret doors

I do agree that the enhancement to search from spells like "Detect Secret Doors" should be improved, maybe a caster level improvement, or a unique enhancement type that stacks.

If they aren't going to boost the baseline to useful levels, then having it stack is a great idea.

[Artos_Fabril]

If they aren't going to boost the baseline to useful levels, then having it stack is a great idea.

I was under the impression that giving trueseeing a 'search score' was a recent invention intended to devalue it because of its prevalence on gear.

[Bjond]

I'm actually not for True Seeing advancing "Search", except when it comes to magically concealed

IMHO, true-seeing does too much for secret doors as it is and conversely not enough. Secrets should be tagged "magical" and those are the ones that True-Seeing should completely negate without any skill check at all -- that would be for ANY magically altered thing.

The best example of how it should work is Fred in the Night Market. IIRC, without TS he looks like a human. With TS, he looks like Fred standing in the middle of a human hologram.

If it's a hidden door, TS should have no effect at all. AFAIK, that means that DDO's "finds doors of seach=5 and less" is definitely against the D&D rules and against even the spirit of the rules for TS.

---

Heh, as far as soap-boxes go, I think search should always be on just like Mind-Like-Iron or Nothing-Is-Hidden, but without any penalty. The zerg is the reason. By the time the rogue has lifted his hand from the mouse in order to type "WATCH OUT, TRAP!" the zerg has already stoned itself. Having the UI do that announce for you is a monumental QoL.

Where would manual searching come into play? I'd make that for people with low search skill. You can stand and search forever and your skill bumps up by 1 every second or so. So, anyone can eventually find anything, but without any gear or skill, it might take over 100s of standing there in search mode.

[C-Dog]

Where would manual searching come into play? I'd make that for people with low search skill. You can stand and search forever and your skill bumps up by 1 every second or so. So, anyone can eventually find anything, but without any gear or skill, it might take over 100s of standing there in search mode.

In the spirit of D&D, you're talking about "taking 20", which this game already does w/ manual Search (only it doesn't take "5 minutes", or whatever the tabletop books call for). Otherwise (by D&D rules), a d20 becomes involved, sim to Open Lock.

Zerging comes with its downsides, and not stopping to Search is one of them.

[Buddha5440]

Zerging comes with its downsides, and not stopping to Search is one of them.

Zergers don't stop for secret doors. They lower the XP/Min which is all they live for.

[Kayze]

The zerg is the reason. By the time the rogue has lifted his hand from the mouse in order to type "WATCH OUT, TRAP!" the zerg has already stoned itself.

That's the downside of zerging, which honestly is a playstyle that should not be catered to. True Seeing and Detect Secret Door seem to be meant for lower-level quests; at higher levels, get a rogue hireling or make friends with people that have high search.

[Annex]

Hmm. I kinda feel like things should go in the opposite direction from this suggestion.

Only the Rogue can find the Secret Door.
Only the Fighter can lift the rusty Portcullis.
Only the Wizard can deactivate the Force Field.
Only the Cleric can summon the helpful Spirit.
Only the Ranger can calm the golden Lion.
Only the Druid can complete the sacred Ritual.

Bjond is right that True Seeing should always work against secret things concealed by illusion, and that it should never work against secret things concealed by a mechanical contrivance.

On the other hand, I completely understand Buddha5440's desire to access everything, especially for those of us who go it alone.

Tough call. In a perfect universe, I would go with far more special encounters, requiring specific characters to solve, but give players access to more and better Hires.

Of course, most dungeon design effort spent on special encounters ends up wasted because so many of us rush through on the minimum path.

I kinda feel like Flimsy and Crew chose the right path every time they build a complicated dungeon and let players decide to explore or rush. Well, as long as the map is good.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

There are only very few actual "hidden objects" within the game. The Haunted House is the very first one where I really noticed the use of this mechanic.
With True Seeing I could find the hidden object there.

[Certon]

True seeing should give +40 to search and make you auto search for secret doors and other hidden objects that are not traps--if your new score is high enough it is detected. Problem solved.

[dunklezhan]

I'd prefer true seeing didn't work on secret doors, and that detect secret doors could be affected by abj DCs and heighten to increase it's detection DC.

Or if that's complicated, which it sounds like it might be, lower the bonus it gives for detecting secret doors and make it a quality bonus or something so it stacks with gear people can swap on.

Either way I'd rather detect secret doors reliably helped you find secret doors (preference would be that specialised casters - e.g. spell school or metamagics, people with 'improved effectiveness' on wands and scrolls - got more benefit, rather than stacking with gear quite honestly), and true seeing just helped you spot and resist illusions.

[K_9]

If they improve the true seeing spell, I would quite like them to look at the knock spell too.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

*Knocks on wood*

[Kayze]

If they improve the true seeing spell, I would quite like them to look at the knock spell too.

And to fix melt lock so that it actually uses spellcraft as per the description.