Returning Player - Help! Rogue Assassin or Vistani build?

[Mortekei]

So I'm a returning player who has been away for a long time. I'm building a new Halfling Rogue (1st life) and would like help with a build that focuses on stealth and hard hitting Sneak Attack. I'm looking at the Assassin & Vistani enhancement trees and I'm wondering which one would be a better investment in time (or a hybrid of the two)?

2nd - Is a pure rogue build a better option or would a 2 level dip into Ranger be worthwhile? I'm thinking Ranger vs Fighter because it allows access to divine magic via wands and such without a UMD check, and gets TWF and a good spread of skills so I don't loose much in my progression.

3rd - I have a sub / 32 pt build account

[Loromir]

So I'm a returning player who has been away for a long time. I'm building a new Halfling Rogue (1st life) and would like help with a build that focuses on stealth and hard hitting Sneak Attack. I'm looking at the Assassin & Vistani enhancement trees and I'm wondering which one would be a better investment in time (or a hybrid of the two)?

2nd - Is a pure rogue build a better option or would a 2 level dip into Ranger be worthwhile? I'm thinking Ranger vs Fighter because it allows access to divine magic via wands and such without a UMD check, and gets TWF and a good spread of skills so I don't loose much in my progression.

3rd - I have a sub / 32 pt build account

A vistani assassin would work very nicely. I've run a couple of lives with that mix. Vistani is a very good tree.

[Saekee]

are you planning on TRing at 20 or playing at cap for a while?

[Mortekei]

are you planning on TRing at 20 or playing at cap for a while?

Honestly I've not decided yet. I've not given any thought to reincarnating as of yet. Currently I'm more interested in a build for my Assassin / Vistani Dual dagger halfling rogue.

Can anyone point me to a couple of of them so I can take a look at which feats and enhancements to take at what levels?

[unbongwah]

If you have both Vistani Knife Fighter and Horizon Walker, the most obvious option is to go all-in on DEX-based rogue 20:

• 41 APs Assassin for tier-5s and capstone
• 23 APs Vistani Knife Fighter for Double Daggers and Celerity
• 13 APs Horizon Walker for No Step Missed (DEX Battle Trance)
• 3 APs Acrobat for Fast Movement

If you don't have Horizon Walker but do have Harper Agent, you can make INT your secondary stat (e.g., DEX 20 INT 16 to start) and go for something like:

• 41 APs Assassin
• 27 APs Vistani Knife Fighter (add Mist Stalker IV and Vistani Knife Training IV)
• 8 APs Harper for Know the Angles (INT Battle Trance)
• 3 APs Acrobat

[Mortekei]

If you have both Vistani Knife Fighter and Horizon Walker, the most obvious option is to go all-in on DEX-based rogue 20:

• 41 APs Assassin for tier-5s and capstone
• 23 APs Vistani Knife Fighter for Double Daggers and Celerity
• 13 APs Horizon Walker for No Step Missed (DEX Battle Trance)
• 3 APs Acrobat for Fast Movement

If you don't have Horizon Walker but do have Harper Agent, you can make INT your secondary stat (e.g., DEX 20 INT 16 to start) and go for something like:

• 41 APs Assassin
• 27 APs Vistani Knife Fighter (add Mist Stalker IV and Vistani Knife Training IV)
• 8 APs Harper for Know the Angles (INT Battle Trance)
• 3 APs Acrobat

This all looks pretty good. So you are suggesting staying Pure Rogue vs that 2 levels of Ranger splash I was initially considering?

[unbongwah]

So you are suggesting staying Pure Rogue vs that 2 levels of Ranger splash I was initially considering?

Yes, there's not really any need to splash an Assassin. I'm a bit rusty but I was thinking something like this:

Halfling Assassin
Rogue 20
True Neutral Halfling




Stats
               28pt     32pt     Level Up
               ----     ----     --------
Strength         8        8       4: DEX
Dexterity       20       20       8: DEX
Constitution    14       16      12: DEX
Intelligence    12       12      16: DEX
Wisdom           8        8      20: DEX
Charisma         8        8      24: DEX
                                 28: DEX


Skills
          1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
         ------------------------------------------------------------
Disable   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Open Lo   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Search    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Spot      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Bluff     4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Hide      4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Move Si   4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
Tumble    4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
UMD       4  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  23
         ------------------------------------------------------------
         36  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9  9




Feats


 1        : Two Weapon Fighting
 3        : Precision
 6        : Improved Feint OR Two Weapon Defense
 9        : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12        : Improved Critical: Piercing
15        : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18        : Hamstring OR Two Weapon Defense
21 Epic   : Improved Sneak Attack
22 Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
24 Epic   : Overwhelming Critical
25 Destiny: Crush Weakness OR Doublestrike
27 Epic   : Epic Damage Reduction
28 Destiny: Harbinger of Chaos OR Embodiment of Law
30 Epic   : Watchful Eye OR Epic Reflexes
30 Legend : Scion of: Ethereal Plane


10 Rogue  : Opportunist
13 Rogue  : Improved Evasion
16 Rogue  : Defensive Roll
19 Rogue  : Crippling Strike OR Skill Mastery




Enhancements (Spent: 80 +0r +0u / Max: 80 +0r +0u AP)


Assassin (41 AP)
Knife in the Darkness, Dagger in the Back, Assassin's Trick, Nimbleness, Lethality, Deadly Shadow
Poison Strikes: Heartseeker, Sneak Attack Training, Stealthy III
Venomed Blades III, Sneak Attack Training, Damage Boost III
Shadow Dagger III, Sneak Attack Training
Execute, Weakening Strikes, Sneak Attack Training
Assassinate, Measure the Foe III, Deadly Strikes, Knife Specialization, Light Armor Mastery I

Vistani Knife Fighter (23 AP)
Knife Expertise, Knife Juggler, Quick Reflexes
Vistani Knife Training I, Undead Hunter, Mist Stalker, Rapid Slash
Vistani Knife Training II, Mist Stalker II, Haste Boost III
Mist Stalker III, Deadly Blades
Celerity, Choose One: Double Daggers

Horizon Walker (13 AP)
Mark Target, Improved Marking
Eye for Accuracy III, Skills I
Protection from Evil and Good III, Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
No Step Missed III

Thief-Acrobat (3 AP)
Staff Control
Fast Movement

Leveling Guide
Ass0 Knife in the Darkness; Vis0 Knife Expertise; Vis1 Rapid Slash
Ass1 Sneak Attack Training; Ass1 Stealthy I, II
Ass0 Dagger in the Back; Ass2 Damage Boost I, II, III
Vis1 Mist Stalker; Vis2 Haste Boost I, II
Vis2 Haste Boost III; Vis0 Knife Juggler; Vis1 Undead Hunter; Ass2 Venomed Blades I
Vis0 Quick Reflexes; Ass0 Assassin's Trick; Ass2 Venomed Blades II, III
Ass2 Sneak Attack Training; Ass3 Sneak Attack Training
TA0 Staff Control; TA1 Fast Movement; Ass1 Stealthy III
Ass1 Poison Strikes: Heartseeker; Ass4 Weakening Strikes
Ass4 Sneak Attack Training; Ass4 Execute
Ass3 Shadow Dagger I, II, III; Vis1 Vistani Knife Training I
Ass0 Nimbleness; Ass5 Knife Specialization; Ass5 Assassinate
Ass5 Deadly Strikes; Vis3 Deadly Blades
Vis2 Mist Stalker II; Vis3 Mist Stalker III
Vis2 Vistani Knife Training II; Vis4 Choose One: Double Daggers
Vis4 Celerity; HZW0 Mark Target; HZW1 Eye for Accuracy I, II
HZW1 Eye for Accuracy III; HZW1 Skills I; HZW0 Improved Marking; HZW2 Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Ass0 Lethality; HZW2 Protection from Evil and Good I, II, III
HZW3 No Step Missed I, II, III; Ass5 Light Armor Mastery I
Ass5 Measure the Foe I, II, III; Ass0 Deadly Shadow

The key features from Vistani are Rapid Slash (replaces Killer), Haste Boost, +10% doublestrike from Celerity+Quick Reflexes, and +20% offhand proc chance from Double Daggers. The crit bonuses from One with Blades don't stack with Knife Specialization so no need to grab OwB.

Horizon Walker is just for No Step Missed. You can take whatever you want from the first two tiers as filler to unlock NSM; Walker's pretty blah if you're not an archer IMO.

[Mortekei]

So I'm curious, do I lose out on anything if I opt for a splash into a different class such as Ranger, or Fighter to pick up extra feats? Would that screw up the ability to reach the Assassin capstone for example?

[C-Dog]

So I'm curious, do I lose out on anything if I opt for a splash into a different class such as Ranger, or Fighter to pick up extra feats?

You have 2 threads going asking the same questions (and both in this same subforum ).

Addressed here: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...=1#post6514610


But I will add this here: "Feats" are NOT as important in DDO as they are in D&D. Do NOT try to build this using your D&D experience! Do NOT get fixated on "moar Feats"! Look at the build overall, especially the Enhancements.

The only reason to do contortions for more feats is if a specific build really, truly needs those extra feats to achieve some goal - and an assassin usually doesn't. Can they use them? Meh, sure, most builds can use "1 more" feat. But do they need it?

Weigh what you are gaining against what you are trading away.

(Or... Q: What feat do you think your build will be missing, that will make such a huge difference?)

Would that screw up the ability to reach the Assassin capstone for example?

Um... yes. Look at the Requirement: "Level 20 Rogue".

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_en...#Deadly_Shadow

To repeat what was said in that other thread, a dip will also delay all later Cores, which are gated by that class level. So, if you take a 1-level dip before Level 4, Core 3 delays to Character Lvl 4, and sim w/ Core 6 and 12 (to 7 and 13). A 2-level dip (or two 1-level dips into diff classes) will delay later Cores by 2 character levels.

This not only precludes taking Core 20, but delays Core 18 until Level 20 (assuming you follow SOP, stopping at Lvl 18 to quest and bank both 19 and 20).

And that gets us back to a very important question that you have not considered...

are you planning on TRing at 20 or playing at cap for a while?

Honestly I've not decided yet. I've not given any thought to reincarnating as of yet. Currently I'm more interested in a build for my Assassin / Vistani Dual dagger halfling rogue...

Any well-considered build MUST include what your reincarnation goals are!

Are you building to get to 18, to farm your 20 tokens and then done? Or are you building to get to 20 and then either stop and farm Heroics and/or then march on to 30? These are very different end goals, and invite very different build considerations.

Start there - that will influence many of the other questions folk are trying to answer for you.

[Mortekei]

You have 2 threads going asking the same questions (and both in this same subforum ).

Addressed here: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...=1#post6514610

Actually that was not an accident but rather I was trying to break out what I felt were two distinctive trains of thought. One focused on an Assassin / Vistani concept build, and the other specific to the advantage / disadvantage of multi-classing. In retrospect I should have not included the multi-class question within this thread at all but kept it in its own thread.

But I will add this here: "Feats" are NOT as important in DDO as they are in D&D. Do NOT try to build this using your D&D experience! Do NOT get fixated on "moar Feats"! Look at the build overall, especially the Enhancements.

The only reason to do contortions for more feats is if a specific build really, truly needs those extra feats to achieve some goal - and an assassin usually doesn't. Can they use them? Meh, sure, most builds can use "1 more" feat. But do they need it?

I understand that DDO is not simply D&D PnP Online. I also understand that a lot of players that come in from PnP tend to assume they are much more similar than they actually are. To address your question however of "why bother" with the multiclass dip at all? When looking at different builds the biggest difference I am noticing is frequently which feats are chosen. The enhancements seem to be well established "gold standards" at this point, but the feats are still debated over which ones offer more utility based on playstyle. Thus the option to squeeze in a couple of extra seemed worth considering if nothing else.

Um... yes. Look at the Requirement: "Level 20 Rogue".

o https://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_en...#Deadly_Shadow

Ok, so first things first: Thank you. I've looked at these requirements both in game and on the various wiki, etc for the past week scratching my head over what the heck was the big deal...and then I finally seen it. Requires: Lethality, Level 20 Rogue Previously when looking at the Tier 5 Enhancements I'd seen where they are listed as Requires Character Level 12, Rogue level 5 and that was it. This point answers a lot of my other questions regarding how tightly the builds are balanced.

Any well-considered build MUST include what your reincarnation goals are!

Unfortunately, it does not. At this point my only goal is to create a characters that I will enjoy playing. I've probably played DDO less than 100 hours since it's launch and have only just recently come back to it. My experience with other games have taught me that I do enjoy playing rogues so I decided to start there. When I'm looking at character concept builds I'm really only looking at them from the standpoint of if I would find playing that character enjoyable? After I've played such a character for a while and start developing much more specific goals about wanting to farm for a specific item to complete their build (and similar ideas) THEN is actually when I'm asking the questions about efficiency. Fortunately DDO offers a fairly generous respec system so I'm not too worried about that at this point.

Less I forget to say so, thank you guys so much for your thoughts in this process. I'm learning so much from everyone and really want you to know how much I appreciate you taking the time to discuss the game mechanics with me.

[C-Dog]

Actually that was not an accident but rather I was trying to break out what I felt were two distinctive trains of thought...

I understand that and recognized it as the original intent, I was pointing out that the two trains of thought were merging (current tense).


As to your final choice - good luck! The game does allow changes, even to using a +# Lesser Heart of Wood to change # of class choices*, altho' those can be expensive (depending how you define that). Take your pick, take your (long-term) chances - if this is your first life, it's not hard to TR/RR at 20 and zip back up, and in some ways even "better" since you'll have an informed build (instead of a relatively blind guess).

(* there are limits - DO read before you try or plan to use!
o https://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Rein..._Reincarnation)