Can we autogrant heroic SWF and THF feats?

[Tilomere]

Right now a melee "build" is:

SWFx4 (including offhand versatility), stance (PA or P), IC:X, 1 free feat to define "build"

It's not really a "build", since 6 of your feats are false choices and picked for you.

Same with THF, especially quarterstaffs:

THFX4 (including Swords to Plowshares), stance, IC:X, 1 free feat to define build

Same with NFx3 for druids.

These feat taxes to swing a weapon effectively don't exist in D&D 3.5, and limits builds to a single feat choice, and six false choices.

Can we make this more like D&D, where the basic ability to swing effectively is just autogranted as you level and get the right B&B and auto-activate with appropriate equipment, freeing up these taxed feats to make builds?

It's not like a heroic melee build is anywhere close to any heroic caster. For balance purposes, we can trim some of the excess weapon damage from legendary weapons, reducing them to D+2 for 1 handers, and D+4 for 2 handers.

[droid327]

A couple issues...

1. Sometimes its not feats you have to take, its feats you get to take. What would you spend them on if there wasnt OV or S2P etc.? Middling defensive abilities like Dodge/Mob? Caster feats like Quicken/Emp Heal? Definitely not subpar offensive feats like Power Crit or Weapon Focus. It seems like there should be a suite of 7 non-filler-tier feats that are all tuned towards a melee style, if you want to go pure DPS specialist...but arent de facto required if you want to hybridize more into caster, or balance offense and defense. The alternative is only having 5 worthwhile feats and then having to take two fillers

2. It raises the value for builds that get bonus feats. Fighter, Human, etc. are only worth as much as their bonus feats are worth to a build.

3. THF doesnt have an extra feat tax if you're not Qstaff. S2P only provides a benefit to them, and they're the only 2H weapon that has an extra feat. And its autogranted in both trees that explicitly support Qstaff already.

4. Autogranting SWF or THF in a class progression would prevent you from taking the other, since they're mutually exclusive. So you couldnt make, say, a SWF Barb or a THF Bard if the class gave you the other one. And you couldnt grant fighting styles in enhancement trees, either, since they're prereq for other feats, it'd have to be in the class, like Ranger. It would also be unbalanced if they werent mutually exclusive, too, because then you could do things like BSword with full SWF speed and THF strikethrough and stat-to-dmg

5. Its not really a "false choice" because every build will have a template of "must take" feats that define it. The choice is what build you want to take, which template you want to use. Then everyone has 1-2 feats to "personalize" their template, or more on some classes. If you RSTLNE-d it and just gave everyone the template for free, that wouldn't change anything - the next 5 best feats would just become the new template on top of that. After all, the current templates arent templates for any more reason than they're simply the objectively best feats to take for a given playstyle. Its not like you COULDNT make a SWF that only takes 1 or 2 SWF feats...its just not an optimal way to do it.

[Matuse]

By this logic you should also get auto-granted Quicken, Empower, and Maximize because DPS casters all take those. Also you should get Spell Focus X and Improved Spell Focus X and Spell Penetration because DC casters take those...

You've stopped even having a build.

[C-Dog]

The problem then becomes builds w/ classes that have (actual) auto-granted feats, or extra feat slots.

Classes like Bards or Clerics were never meant to be as strong in melee as a "Fighter"-type, and if you want to be, then, yeah, you're going to go all-in to pursue that counter-class ability.

[Tilomere]

The problem then becomes builds w/ classes that have (actual) auto-granted feats, or extra feat slots.

The value of a class with extra feats is having extra feat choices. The build diversity of every class including those classes with extra feats is diminished by having feat taxes.

Fighter should have 11 extra feat choices, on top of its 7 heroic feat choices. If we make 6 of those false choices, then build diversity of a fighter is diminished from 18 to 12 feat choices. While you can say a barbarian is diminished by a larger %, from 7 to 1 feat choices, build diversity of both classes are being diminished.

Put another way, we could nerf all attack speed 10%, and create another false choice feat with 10% attack speed to undo the nerf. This is basically how swords to plowshares works with quarterstaff. Then fighters would be down to 11 feat choices + 7 false choices, and barbarians would be down to 0 feat choices + 7 false choices. Would you say that is an even better setup than we have live, and even further values fighters, since it even further separates fighter from barbarian by infinite % feat choices (or cleric, as someone brought up)?

[Discpsycho]

The value of a class with extra feats is having extra feat choices. The build diversity of every class including those classes with extra feats is diminished by having feat taxes.

What feat tax? Just because the meta says you need a Combat Style line to do good dps doesn't make them mandatory.

More seriously, people who crunch numbers will be able to find the best arrangements of feats regardless of how many things are offered for free. Being able to pick up the Dodge/Mobility/SA line on light-armor melees would be great! ...except Monks and Rangers already do that. Rogues and Bards get left out, but Rogues get unique feats and Bards are partial casters.

At this point, so many feats are outdated that they only provide the illusion of choice. Sure, Discipline is now several times more useful if you go GMOF, but does that really put it on a level playing field with Dodge?

Fighter should have 11 extra feat choices, on top of its 7 heroic feat choices. If we make 6 of those false choices, then build diversity of a fighter is diminished from 18 to 12 feat choices. While you can say a barbarian is diminished by a larger %, from 7 to 1 feat choices, build diversity of both classes are being diminished.

That's true only within the field of melee DPS. If a Barbarian goes OS tank, their feat selection will be completely different from a THF Barb - waitaminute, that's a meaningful choice right there on a melee class whose three trees feel like a blind Froot Loop taste test! What about hybrids, ranged, melee-specced casters, full casters?

Put another way, we could nerf all attack speed 10%, and create another false choice feat with 10% attack speed to undo the nerf. Then fighters would be down to 11 feat choices + 7 false choices, and barbarians would be down to 0 feat choices + 7 false choices. Would you say that is an even better setup than we have live, and even further values fighters, since it even further separates fighter from barbarian by infinite % feat choices (or cleric, as someone brought up)?

Put another way, we could remove the Heroic Durability feats and Lore feats. That's an even greater illusion of choice...except those two examples aren't the same, because for those of us without all past lives and full reaper points, keeping from becoming soulstones is a more meaningful DPS contribution than that last 0.005%

[Oxarhamar]

By this logic you should also get auto-granted Quicken, Empower, and Maximize because DPS casters all take those. Also you should get Spell Focus X and Improved Spell Focus X and Spell Penetration because DC casters take those...

You've stopped even having a build.

Do Ranged version now

But yes I agree

[droid327]

The value of a class with extra feats is having extra feat choices. The build diversity of every class including those classes with extra feats is diminished by having feat taxes.

Fighter should have 11 extra feat choices, on top of its 7 heroic feat choices. If we make 6 of those false choices, then build diversity of a fighter is diminished from 18 to 12 feat choices. While you can say a barbarian is diminished by a larger %, from 7 to 1 feat choices, build diversity of both classes are being diminished.

The value of extra feat classes is only as much as the feats they can take. Having 11 extra feat choices after your 7 core choices doesnt really mean as much if your last 5 choices are just Toughness Toughness Toughness Toughness Toughness because there's literally nothing better left to take.

And, again, its not a false choice. You want to build a SWF Fighter without SWF feats or Precision? Go right ahead. The game lets you do that. You're just CHOOSING to take the optimal feats.

If those feats are given to you, then nothing changes...you'll still end up choosing the most optimal feats remaining.

So you're basically just asking for enough free feats on every class to take every feat you want. That doesnt improve diversity, it hurts it, because everyone will just have everything every time.

[Artos_Fabril]

Right now a melee "build" is:

SWFx4 (including offhand versatility), stance (PA or P), IC:X, 1 free feat to define "build"

It's not really a "build", since 6 of your feats are false choices and picked for you.

Same with THF, especially quarterstaffs:

THFX4 (including Swords to Plowshares), stance, IC:X, 1 free feat to define build

Same with NFx3 for druids.

These feat taxes to swing a weapon effectively don't exist in D&D 3.5, and limits builds to a single feat choice, and six false choices.

Can we make this more like D&D, where the basic ability to swing effectively is just autogranted as you level and get the right B&B and auto-activate with appropriate equipment, freeing up these taxed feats to make builds?

It's not like a heroic melee build is anywhere close to any heroic caster. For balance purposes, we can trim some of the excess weapon damage from legendary weapons, reducing them to D+2 for 1 handers, and D+4 for 2 handers.

So which classes autogrant which feats? Do rogues get SWF, THF, TWF, or Ranged feats?

If the argument is for 3.5e purism, you might justify reducing each line down to 1 feat (that scales with character level, because that's easier than revising all monster stats again to account for a reduction in character power), but that doesn't solve the problem mentioned by many others that the next n best feats become de facto mandatory.

[C-Dog]

@ Tilo -

Your argument starts with the premise that, given more choices, there would be more diversity. I disagree.

This community (not all individuals, but certainly as a whole) is experienced and sophisticated enough with the game that it will always determine the "<X number> of optimal feats", in order. The numbers will be crunched, the data analyzed, and a consensus reached on the results, with outliers being viewed as sub-standard. So, regardless whether you're given 1 or 7 or 18 feats to choose, those will always be (almost*) identical for those who value META** over personal play-style or flavor.

* The only variable is when 2 feats are, in fact, both equally attractive, or (as was the case with Power Attack vs. Precision) when each is better for a different situation, and/or when one can argue the order that the feats should be taken. (This occurs in casters more than melee/ranged.)

(** for new(er) players, that's "Most Efficient Tactic Available", i.e. picking "the best" combination to get "the best" result currently available. Tweaks, nerfs and updates continually change the META, and rarely a player has an insight that shatters the old one with a new approach.)

I would suggest, therefore, that in fact what you see lacking is a wider variety of equally "good" feats, or of feats that each are equally attractive but in different ways (e.g. for clearing trash vs. for beating a boss, or for high DPS vs. high survivability, etc.).

And, I believe, those do in fact largely exist - but are not all equally powerful. So what does not, nor probably ever will exist, are multiple roads to "optimal". While creating new feats is easy, what is not is balancing those such that one set is not undeniably META. And that set will bring us back to your original premise - that these 7 (or 3, or 18, or whatever number) are "default".

So if you're trying to maximize a character (which I've seen you do before, and at a high level of expertise)... yes, you (especially) are going to see one and only one road to get there, every time, no matter how many different options are made available.