U54 Preview 2: Tabaxi and Tabaxi Trailblazer

[jskinner937]

I also hope it's an oversight, but I'm curious why you think evasion is useless? Once your reflex save beats the DC, then improved evasion is the one that's useless. The majority of characters I play that have evasion, have only evasion and no improved.

So most builds with a viable reflex will have evasion, except maybe insightful reflex build like arty or wizzy. In which case damage is rarely half, but usually much less without evasion. Improved evasion at least cuts half on a failed. Reality is if you have reflex you dont worry with or without...if you dont then you need improved evasion.

[Rull]

High Places: After falling for at least 1.5 seconds, when you land you gain +2 Critical Hit Confirmation, +2 Critical Hit Damage, and +25% Armor Piercing for 20 seconds.

Maybe I'm missing something. This seems flavorful, but horrible and it'll never be selected unless it's filler to get to a higher Tier. Can't we get something that's...well....useful

25% armor piercing is pretty strong for people who can consistently trigger it at will, and pretty useless for all others.

25 piercing (combined with 2 seeker) is comparable with scourge's 5% doublestrike or woodelf's 6% hit chance in terms of power.

[VinoeWhines]

Is it possible to add a Lesser Racial Reincarnation, so that when new races come out you can Lesser Reincarnate to them instead of having to go back to level 1 just to try them out on Alt toons or toons that are at cap and aren't planning on TRing?


For the past 10 years new races have been coming out and having to TR every time to try them out for some players that don't play and stream and are content creators 24 7 become prohibitive to just to get to Cap and Reaper XP.

This could help out allot of new players as well that are maybe half way through a Class and realize that another race might be better to continue in, then the ones they selected; or they can try out the upper levels of a Race/Class and if it doesn't work out they can Lesser Racial TR back to their original or new class to test out, without having to feel like they wasted their few amount of hours to play the game to go back to zero and frustrate them away from the game as too time consuming.

This would add value to the economy of the game and allow for further wider options to be explored.

[Carpone]

Evasion gained from trees (like in primal avatar) doesn't trip improved evasion in SD. It's been said by the devs before that you need the full feat and not a version granted from trees to get the improved version (it would be nice if the text in Shadowdancer made this requirement clear).

Which dev said that? A feat is a feat, regardless of the source. Recently Feydark Illusionist T5 was fixed to recognize the Augment Summoning feat provided by the augment. Magical Training as-a-prereq has received similar treatment during the ED revamp.

If Evasion from Tabaxi or Primal Avatar is not providing Improved Evasion from Shadowdancer core 3, then it's a bug.

[Steelstar]

Which dev said that? A feat is a feat, regardless of the source. Recently Feydark Illusionist T5 was fixed to recognize the Augment Summoning feat provided by the augment. Magical Training as-a-prereq has received similar treatment during the ED revamp.

If Evasion from Tabaxi or Primal Avatar is not providing Improved Evasion from Shadowdancer core 3, then it's a bug.

The general rule in DDO is that feats granted by Enhancements do not count as that feat for the prerequisites of anything else.

Very recently, some exceptions have started being made; those exceptions should possibly have their tooltips updated to mark their exceptional status better.

Shadowdancer Core 3 does not provide Improved Evasion for any enhancement-based sources of Evasion (including Tabaxi and all of the existing Evasion enhancements), and we do not plan to change that at this time.

[SWCarter]

The general rule in DDO is that feats granted by Enhancements do not count as that feat for the prerequisites of anything else.

Very recently, some exceptions have started being made; those exceptions should possibly have their tooltips updated to mark their exceptional status better.

Shadowdancer Core 3 does not provide Improved Evasion for any enhancement-based sources of Evasion (including Tabaxi and all of the existing Evasion enhancements), and we do not plan to change that at this time.

Fair enough. Making this apparent in all of the relevant tooltips, though, will dispel a lot of confusion. There are more and more feats being granted by enhancements and some meet the conditions for prerequisites while others do not.

FWIW, this approach diminishes the value of Tabaxi, too, because that enhancement is only going to be relevant for heroic leveling for most builds that care about evasion. Once in epic levels, those builds that care about evasion are going to splash Shadowdancer for Lithe and other reflex save bonuses and would therefore pick up evasion from Core 3 there. If evasion in the Tabaxi T4 does not count for prerequisites, then there is little reason to spend the points for T4 other than run speed. But maybe that is the primary intended benefit of this race?

[Artos_Fabril]

Shadowdancer Core 3 does not provide Improved Evasion for any enhancement-based sources of Evasion (including Tabaxi and all of the existing Evasion enhancements), and we do not plan to change that at this time.

Perhaps this is the point that should be clarified in the tooltip, rather than the exception status of other enhancements. Unless you expect all players to be familiar with all other abilities in order to compare them.

Separately, the justification for enhancments (relatively easy to change) not being able to satisfy the prerequisites for feats (relatively difficult to change) is perfectly valid. However, Shadowdancer's Core 3 does not have evasion as a prerequisite, it is augmented by the presence of evasion from other sources (class-granted feats only, currently). These are clearly different propositions.

No one, I think, expects that Dodge granted by enhancements would satisfy the prerequisite for Mobility, not that Mobility on armor would satisfy the prerequisites for Spring Attack or Shot on the Run.

[Nandos]

I'm liking the changes especially the Weapon Finesse/Improved Weapon Finesse. Do Tabaxi count as animals for spells such as Magic Fang and Animal Growth?

[SWCarter]

I've been exploring a variety of endgame build options with Tabaxi, but with evasion easily available in Shadowdancer, I am struggling to find anything that makes this race interesting outside of its run speed. Every build I consider would perform better as another race, or they're already represented through existing class trees.

Could you add more favored weapon options? Light pick, light mace, kukri, and/or handaxe would provide support for some new build concepts, and make Divine Crusader a bit more desirable. Maybe even consider favored throwing daggers/axes/hammers?

Or perhaps add the ability for a weapon other than light melee to use dex to hit/damage, such as heavy picks, khopeshes, warhammers, or battleaxes? That would open the door for some additional creativity and would give the race some longevity outside of the run speed consideration.

[Metellica]

I've been exploring a variety of endgame build options with Tabaxi, but with evasion easily available in Shadowdancer, I am struggling to find anything that makes this race interesting outside of its run speed. Every build I consider would perform better as another race, or they're already represented through existing class trees.

Could you add more favored weapon options? Light pick, light mace, kukri, and/or handaxe would provide support for some new build concepts, and make Divine Crusader a bit more desirable. Maybe even consider favored throwing daggers/axes/hammers?

Or perhaps add the ability for a weapon other than light melee to use dex to hit/damage, such as heavy picks, khopeshes, warhammers, or battleaxes? That would open the door for some additional creativity and would give the race some longevity outside of the run speed consideration.

I have to say I agree with this - race needs a re-visit.

I was looking forward to having a fast moving agile race that could perhaps get Improved Evasion when in Epics. I do understand why evasion from enhancements wouldn't interact with Shadowdancer, but I must admit I'm disappointed.

In addition, I read that they will no longer be fast moving. What are they bringing to the table?


Quick edit, I do want to provide some positive feedback, the Tabaxi do look fantastic.

[Tilomere]

I've been exploring a variety of endgame build options with Tabaxi, but with evasion easily available in Shadowdancer, I am struggling to find anything that makes this race interesting outside of its run speed.

If you take advantage of the built in feats (deflect arrows saves 6 AP, defensive roll means you can stop at 8 rogue instead of 10, it means you have a few more ap, and two more levels to work with. This lets you do a multiclass two offensive tree build like:

Thundercatz Ho!

End up with dust/ooze/vacuum x7 adrenaline + boulder's might crits, or effectively x12 adrenaline + boulder's might crits.

Tabaxi Non-lawful 8 Rogue 7 Wiz 5 Barb w/ SoS x3

7 Wiz gives LGS Dust + Ooze on extended death auras, or effectively another +3 multiplier

ED
Divine Crusader T5 gives vulnerability and full BaB from mantle with staves, or effectively another +2 multiplier
FoTW T4 gives adrenaline +16 range and boulder's might +2 multiplier


32 AP FB +2 Multiplier
23 TA gives Defensive roll 50%
13 gives dex trance
15 racial gives tabaxi stuffs (defensive roll/deflect arrows)

12 Misc gets stuffs (more damage/strikethrough/helpless/sweeping)

Str 13, Max Dex, Good Con, Ok Int/Wis/Cha

1 R1 PA (Str 13)
2 B1
3 R2 THF1 (Str 15, Tomes +3)
4 B2
5 R3
6 B3 Dodge
7 B4
8 R4
9 B5 THF2 (Str 17, Tomes +4)
10 Wiz1 Extend
11 R5
12 Wiz2 IC:B
13 Wiz3
14 R6
15 Wiz 4 Mobility
16 R7
17 Wiz5 Quicken
18 Wiz6 THF3
19 Wiz7
20 Rogue 8 (Imp. Uncanny Dodge)
21 Spring Attack
22 THF4
24 OC
25 Doublestrike
27 Epic Reflex
28 Law
30 Epic Fort Arborea

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The iconic can do something like 1 monk 7 Wizard 12 Druid, and have dust + ooze on call lightning storm AND death auras, and run in LD for vacuum, using T5 EK for full BaB. Could go raged/screamed, enraged, animal growth, ram's might, strength based then, with Imp Trip + Great Maul double AoE helpless since cat gives free spring attack and monk and wiz also give free feats.

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As long as your character has dust + ooze + vacuum + SoS + adrenaline-boulder's might, it should do fine.

[Tilomere]

[*]Great Weapon Aptitude: +5/10/20% Strikethrough (req: Two Handed Fighting)[/COLOR][/LIST]

Can you drop the prerequisite for this enhancement across all the different trees to support TWF rangers, SWF sword and a half artis, and NF bear druids, none of which are "top builds."

[SWCarter]

Thanks for the feedback. Are you sure the Defensive Roll feat granted by Tabaxi is applicable as a prerequisite for TA Improved Defensive Roll? Based on the feedback in this thread on Evasion not counting toward prerequisites, it would be good to validate Defensive Roll before taking a multi-class split like this. And I suppose that benefit could always be removed by SSG later, if it's not expected to count as a prerequisite.

The debuffing benefits of Death Aura would be applicable to any race/class setup, and quarterstaff still requires the use of a lesser weapon (damage-wise) in comparison to other 2H weapons due to its crit profile. Since there is no support for casters in this race tree, it really needs to shine for melee - and yet there is far more to gain from Half-Orc, Aasimar, Shadar-kai, or even Shifter by comparison. Half-Orc damage bonuses alone are huge in comparison to this tree and apply to all weapons; Tabaxi really needed significant damage bonuses to at least some weapon types to make it competitive for melee. The 15% action boost speed available in GMoF or from a bard ballad (if you typically have one in your party) reduces the one primary benefit of Tabaxi, too.

Ideally, each race should have a niche that helps it shine for a competitive build. Quarterstaff was a good option to explore, but there just isn't nearly enough support here. If they would have added dex to hit/damage for more than just finessable weapons, that would have also been a welcome twist.

[Tilomere]

Thanks for the feedback. Are you sure the Defensive Roll feat granted by Tabaxi is applicable as a prerequisite for TA Improved Defensive Roll? Based on the feedback in this thread on Evasion not counting toward prerequisites, it would be good to validate Defensive Roll before taking a multi-class split like this. And I suppose that benefit could always be removed by SSG later, if it's not expected to count as a prerequisite.

The debuffing benefits of Death Aura would be applicable to any race/class setup.

Quarterstaff was a good option to explore, but there just isn't nearly enough support here.

Think of Tabaxi as an upgraded human, where instead of just one bonus feat you get a few (sprint boost = saves ap in falconry, spring attack = 3, deflect = 1 or 6 AP, defensive roll = 1, claw = great cleave = 1, trip = cleave = 1, evasion = 1). You use the AP and feats saved to get damage elsewhere that a HOrc build couldn't afford. For example, a HOrc gets spring attack chain, but Tabaxi gets it with racial AP, so you can get Improved Trip for LD helpless damage. A HOrc has to spend AP in falconry to sprint around, but a tabaxi gets it for racial AP, so it can pick up more EK and TA dps.

I have never seen a GMoF 20 henshin monk apply dust + ooze + vacuum. It can be somewhat done for a short time with a combination of cauldron and darksteel helms, but it's not smooth.

QStaff has poorest animation speed, and also poorest animation arcs, true, but SoS at cap has a solid crit profile, and the AP and feat savings allows making complex builds that will crank out damage, debuffs, and AoE helpless, which is a triple threat. Just level with SoS/ESoS to 30, with 18-19 with a sentient bonecrusher, and overwrite staff animations with bear ones.

[majster67]

Since Tabaxi and Tabaxi Trailblazer are focused(especially iconic)on Quarterstaff swiping and on dex and trips, why isn't there an enhancement in the race tree to use Dex to Trip instead of Str if it's higher? This would be an interesting option for many players advancing a character in dex

[Psiandron]

I'm having trouble with the heroic tabaxi and the monk attack animations. The speed seems pretty far off what it should be on a wraps monk. I 'm hoping that a developer might look into this. It's not uncommon for there to be an issue like this on first release, but it'd be nice if it got taken care of quickly.

I posted about it more extensively here: https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/531653-Improved-Nimble-Cat-is-not-giving-Dex-to-Damage


Thanks