devs hate melee

[TedSandyman]

Sorry to contradict you but the game was built with stealth very much in mind and initially stealth was frequently the better option for quest completion. The problem arose over time though that certain stealth mechanics were abused and eventually "invisi zerging" became the norm. As has become the norm in recent years rather than fix the actual issue they instead just nerfed the playstyle into obsolescence.

So although I agree in the modern game your surmise is correct this was not always the case. Stealth was originally a very viable option and a major part of the game. That is why a lot of old time players still lament it's loss.

Some quests even have bonuses for NOT killing things.

[KoobTheProud]

R6 is a solo difficulty, there is no need for a hire.

Past that use the dryad because it can't run into combat.

I don't think R6 is a solo difficulty for most people. The Vengeance reapers and increased horrid wilting damage significantly increases the chance of dying compared to R4 which doesn't have any super punishing mechanics. In particular I've seen so many people die to vengeance reaper circles when they were far outside it - there has to be some bug with it.

As far as soloing with a barbarian, a dual box bard with sustaining song parked at the quest entrance is much better than a hireling cleric in my opinion. This doesn't prevent also bringing a hireling, but it's a much more reliable source of healing over time that isn't debuffed by the reaper self-healing penalties.

These answers both point towards the primary melee vs caster problem.

For most players neither r4 nor r6 is a solo difficulty. For those for whom it is a solo difficulty the answer is often it is a solo difficulty if they play a caster not a melee. For a small number of players with all the appropriate past lives, skill levels, gear and lots of reaper points playing a melee solo is not difficult at these levels.

From the viewpoint of a normal player the conversation is just completely out of bounds. They can't solo these difficulties on any character because they don't have enough of an in-game boost from past lives, gear and reaper points and they also don't have the experience/skill levels to prosper in high difficulty content.

This turns into "my melee doesn't do well at endgame/r+ difficulty" however it likely equally applies to caster play for them in those situations. For the most part people who are likely to complain about melee play in difficult environs don't like to play casters because if they did they'd be playing casters in those difficulties and realizing that for most people difficult is difficult and has less to do with melee vs caster.

I believe the "melee is weaker" discussion is actually a proxy for "why can't I roll over r1+ the way I roll over Elite?" We don't see it this way because players who play casters and can't do r1+ are more likely to accept that their character power level/skills are the reason they can't do this. For melee players the argument twists a different direction.

[Bjond]

For most players neither r4 nor r6 is a solo difficulty. For those for whom it is a solo difficulty the answer is often it is a solo difficulty if they play a caster not a melee.

Hmm. It's difficult to argue "most" (or any percentage of "who does what"), but I can say that I regard a first life melee that can't easily solo R4 in epics (20->cap) as a total build failure. In heroics, it's more R1/HE and only R1 after that char has enough RAP to make it faster than HE.

BTW, there's a big difference between a vet playing a first life char versus a newbie. I seriously don't expect a 1st time player to be solo'ing R1 epics -- might even have issue with EE. Gotta experience it before you can build for it. Heroic is different. I'd expect a 1st time 0PL melee to have no issues solo'ing anything on HE.

The "melee is weaker" issue comes up because melee see casters one-rounding entire packs when they're in a group. Nothing takes out the trash like a Sorc. I suspect those melee haven't played a blaster and don't know how happy they are to have someone along who can take out the boss without chowing down SP pots.

[Wizard1406]

Hmm. It's difficult to argue "most" (or any percentage of "who does what"), but I can say that I regard a first life melee that can't easily solo R4 in epics (20->cap) as a total build failure. In heroics, it's more R1/HE and only R1 after that char has enough RAP to make it faster than HE.

Hmm whenever I do R3/4 at cap, the instance takes too long, esp. bosses take forever to down, to the point it is not worth soloing at all. Maybe more of a gear issue than build issue. I followed a "meta" chains build on my last life , but still the single target damage was lacking, since I did not have a raid weapon and fully upgraded senti xp etc.

And yeah people soloing mid/high reaper are the top players, mabye like 0,1% top even. For most players R6 is really not a "solo difficulty".

[Zites]

These answers both point towards the primary melee vs caster problem.

Koob and currant design defenders please read below,

This is an important point.
A group of all casters and/or ranged have no need for a balanced party. Its basically only when you have too many melees in the group that balancing the party becomes important.

r10 groups are dominated by AOE builds and instakillers, which are usually casters but can also include sdk/assassins and to a lesser extent monks. Actual melee builds though, you know, the ones that predominantly rely on swinging weapons for damage are quite pointless. If you have a group with a healer, tank and cc that don't just want to kill the mobs themselves, then sure melee still works, but that's 2-3 wasted party slots that could just be nukers zerging the quest.
The reason for this is due to the hp stat squish of endgame monsters. Anything easy gets dominated by AOE builds (like r10s have become). Anything hard gets dominated by ranged (or casters willing to drink pots), because dead melee deal 0 dps. Actual melee requires that mythical "balanced party" approach, but is suboptimal.

I coulldnt have said it any better than this.

This turns into "my melee doesn't do well at endgame/r+ difficulty" however it likely equally applies to caster play for them in those situations. For the most part people who are likely to complain about melee play in difficult environs don't like to play casters because if they did they'd be playing casters in those difficulties and realizing that for most people difficult is difficult and has less to do with melee vs caster.

Koob and currant design defenders please read below,

Casters dominate endgame r10s for completely different reasons. They aren't doing much more damage than many melee or ranged builds, its just that monsters have so little hp they die too fast. Which is a power creep problem. When monsters die so fast, the actual limiting factor of casters (their cooldowns, not spell points) don't matter because you can just recharge between groups of mobs. (and effectively do double or triple your "real" damage output by bypassing the cooldown part)

Or this.

I believe the "melee is weaker" discussion is actually a proxy for "why can't I roll over r1+ the way I roll over Elite?" We don't see it this way because players who play casters and can't do r1+ are more likely to accept that their character power level/skills are the reason they can't do this. For melee players the argument twists a different direction.

Koob and currant design defenders please read below,

The main issue with AOE burst is that it kills everything before the monsters can retaliate. Double or triple monster hp would solve this much more effectively.

If monsters actually survive the first round of burst, casters would have to start worrying about cooldowns/kiting/etc... not to mention having a melee in the party to clean up the still 50% hp mobs suddenly seems a lot more useful.

As for defense, I'd like to see the AC system get a revamp. Right now most endgame builds have around 100 ac without trying, which is useless. If you invest in AC you can get 200, which is also useless. Tanks typically get 300+ AC which is just barely better than useless, and full investment gets 400+ which barely competes with a generic 25% dodge build.

Suggestion:
Defensive fighting adds BAB to AC
EDF adds twice BAB to AC
Armor types add their BAB bonus to PRR to AC as well. (ie 2x for Heavy, 1.5x medium, 1x for light)
Monks get BAB to AC while centered.

This would allow melee dps builds to hit 300-400 AC with some investment, which translates to about the equivalent of 10-30% dodge depending on content.
Yes, this might make melee durability quite overpowered for leveling. Just like caster AOE damage already is

Well said.