Reaper was a terrible mistake

[Axcarth]

I would say the buck stops here. Remove reaper mode. Remove extra hit points from reaper trees. Replace it with hard core mode. If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid...

I could agree to this, with a unique (very high) reaper dif with partial hardcore rules as stated above... yes.

[superevbully]

Oh-o. Where/when did I hear that before? EE being too easy and reaper mode was created out of necessity.

Now R1-R4 is too easy. Some people even finding R10 easy. Now what?

I would say the buck stops here. Remove reaper mode. Remove extra hit points from reaper trees. Replace it with hard core mode. If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid. Existing players with reaper points is rewarded with 1 astral shard per reaper point obtained in the past per character. Reaper crafting we can keep, but reaper items are dropped from hard core mode, also, no 50 RP requirement to craft a reaper item.

Remove reaper trees. Adjust monsters to accommodate. Cosmetic reaper wings we can keep. But its unobtainable in the future.

Reaper monster can still exist, but it is rare. By the D&D rules, reaper is invisible to the naked eye, and only appears when the character is close to death.

Caveat: this hard core mode favors tanks and self healing tanks and players with a lot of alts to play.

Double Caveat: Jibber's Blade, Resurrection, True Resurrection and Beckon Divinity is now less useful, and healing mid-battle is getting more important.

While interesting and well thought out i could get on board with this except 1 very important exception under no circumstances should a toon ever be locked out of playing on any given day ,,,,,,,,,,the pug scene would be utterly destroyed i have my 150 +rp u think id ever rely on a pugger to allow me to keep playing my main on any given day lololol no f way ....id prob just hang em up if a mechanic like this was installed

[kpak01]

You can't just say 'bad' and give no solutions.

Sure you can.

The really obvious case where it makes perfect sense is when, even if you agree a certain situation is bad, the proposed solution is worse. The default solution is just to leave it as-is, and that may well be a better idea that some proposed bad solution.

And even when that's not the exact situation, one isn't obligated to solve the world's problems before they can feel that some particular idea is bad. Why would you even think that?

[Drunkendex]

IMHO biggest mistake with reaper was xp bonus difference between reaper and elite.
If you're on a TR train, doing elite instead of reaper inflicts noticeable drop in xp gain.
I hate doing reaper but if i wanna do one life as fast as possible I'm forced in r1, love it or not.

Just hit 10 on my main yesterday and decided to run couple of elites as breather and those 2 quests were more fun that entire 10 levels worth of quests for simple reason that I didn't have to watch every mob group closely in case reaper spawned in middle of it.

And I'm considering to actually drop reaper altogether, xp bonus be sent to khyber., I play to have fun.

[Tyrande]

While interesting and well thought out i could get on board with this except 1 very important exception under no circumstances should a toon ever be locked out of playing on any given day ,,,,,,,,,,the pug scene would be utterly destroyed i have my 150 +rp u think id ever rely on a pugger to allow me to keep playing my main on any given day lololol no f way ....id prob just hang em up if a mechanic like this was installed

I think you misunderstood about the deaths part.

It is 3 deaths not of any character in the party. It is 3 deaths of your character.

I think we can call the death caused a `fatal wound` on that character, and 3 fatal wounds would deem a rest.

[Tyrande]

Sure you can.

The really obvious case where it makes perfect sense is when, even if you agree a certain situation is bad, the proposed solution is worse. The default solution is just to leave it as-is, and that may well be a better idea that some proposed bad solution.

And even when that's not the exact situation, one isn't obligated to solve the world's problems before they can feel that some particular idea is bad. Why would you even think that?

You didn't even mention why. Default situation is not a solution LOL. Basically its the end of the line, end of the game. By the end of 2023, DDO might as well shutdown if we keep on like this.

Also I think you misunderstood about the deaths part.

It is 3 deaths not of any character in the party. It is 3 deaths of your character. So as a player, you are responsible for your character(s)' deaths.

[Mamalian]

You can't just say 'bad' and give no solutions.

I just did.

Status quo is better than what you proposed. Doing nothing is better.

[Raithe]

There was a time, a very long time ago, when running Normal was normal, running Hard was hard, and the elite ran Elite...

This is simply not true. The "de facto" difficulty from day one for pick-up groups was elite, and the developers commented on this not being the intention. One of the reasons they decided to make the ridiculous changes to trap DCs on elite was precisely to try and change that phenomenon - they failed miserably, and initiated the first very big drop in playerbase size within the first year or so.

The devs need to come up with something more challenging.

No, they don't. You are complaining about easy game challenge because of character power, but fail to acknowledge that you are in complete control of that power. You can start on a new server, you can delete characters till you have no one left, you can come up with your own set of rules to make the game challenging. I personally find it very easy to come up with game rules that make my playstyle strategically interesting if not always frustratingly challenging.

You don't win at roleplaying games. You simulate and test and strategize, never win.

If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid.

These are not bad ideas. I have played commercial online role-playing games that did something very similar - you simply had to wait several hours to ever be fully resurrected, and of course you could play other characters you had created while one was in time-out. Often there were similar time-outs required for traveling long distances in the game, crafting items, and other activities that should take a long time to complete.

****

Overall the primary issue with Reaper mode is that it's simply ridiculous. Stupid. Uninteresting. Poorly designed. And you fix it by ignoring it - I guarantee there is nothing forcing you to run anything in Reaper mode, because I haven't been doing it for ages.

[Artos_Fabril]

These are not bad ideas. I have played commercial online role-playing games that did something very similar - you simply had to wait several hours to ever be fully resurrected, and of course you could play other characters you had created while one was in time-out. Often there were similar time-outs required for traveling long distances in the game, crafting items, and other activities that should take a long time to complete.

It might be good for the longevity of the game, and certainly better fits my tastes to implement a system like this that incentivizes alts. On the other hand, creating systems in a game (especially an "f2p" game) that restricts people from playing the game is almost always bad, and leads to a monetization scheme that would be even more damaging to the game.

Overall the primary issue with Reaper mode is that it's simply ridiculous. Stupid. Uninteresting. Poorly designed. And you fix it by ignoring it - I guarantee there is nothing forcing you to run anything in Reaper mode, because I haven't been doing it for ages.

It's another hamster wheel in a game of hamster wheels. I agree that it's neither fun nor interesting, but there's a reasonable argument that it's the closest thing DDO has to a catch-up mechanic. It's an increase to character power on-par with past lives that takes somewhat less time and can be run concurrently or allow someone to park at cap and still advance along at least one axis of character power.

[ismikes]

What's the alternative then? You can't just say 'bad' and give no solutions.

<snort> Tell that to Congress...

[kpak01]

You didn't even mention why. Default situation is not a solution LOL. Basically its the end of the line, end of the game. By the end of 2023, DDO might as well shutdown if we keep on like this.

Also I think you misunderstood about the deaths part.

It is 3 deaths not of any character in the party. It is 3 deaths of your character. So as a player, you are responsible for your character(s)' deaths.

I think you misunderstood that pointing out your criticism makes no sense does not imply I either agree or disagree with the person you were illogically criticizing. I have no opinion about your death thing, but the other guy can say your idea is bad all he wants without providing a perfect solution to whatever problem you care about.

[Malveaux]

No, they don't. You are complaining about easy game challenge because of character power, but fail to acknowledge that you are in complete control of that power. You can start on a new server, you can delete characters till you have no one left, you can come up with your own set of rules to make the game challenging. I personally find it very easy to come up with game rules that make my playstyle strategically interesting if not always frustratingly challenging.

You don't win at roleplaying games. You simulate and test and strategize, never win.

You are right. You can't win a game that isn't designed to win. You can beat a raid or a quest but you will never win the game. Another thing I do know. You and I can play 2 completely different games and never cross paths because we play a different game in the same sandbox.

Your control of power is with in a box you are comfortable with. You set the boundaries. You know the rules. You are in a battle with yourself control. I on the other hand am content with my self control. I enjoy controlling chaos. I don't freak out about the unknown or things I can't control. I forge through them. I left the crib a long time ago. I know who I am.

And I know who you are a toxic control freak.

[Malveaux]

Oh-o. Where/when did I hear that before? EE being too easy and reaper mode was created out of necessity.

Now R1-R4 is too easy. Some people even finding R10 easy. Now what?

I would say the buck stops here. Remove reaper mode. Remove extra hit points from reaper trees. Replace it with hard core mode. If your character dies, it is removed from the quest. If your character dies more than 3 times on that same game day, it is removed from playing (need resting in an inn for recuperating) on that game day on any quest or raid. Existing players with reaper points is rewarded with 1 astral shard per reaper point obtained in the past per character. Reaper crafting we can keep, but reaper items are dropped from hard core mode, also, no 50 RP requirement to craft a reaper item.

Remove reaper trees. Adjust monsters to accommodate. Cosmetic reaper wings we can keep. But its unobtainable in the future.

Reaper monster can still exist, but it is rare. By the D&D rules, reaper is invisible to the naked eye, and only appears when the character is close to death.

Caveat: this hard core mode favors tanks and self healing tanks and players with a lot of alts to play.

Double Caveat: Jibber's Blade, Resurrection, True Resurrection and Beckon Divinity is now less useful, and healing mid-battle is getting more important.

Not really into taking away a cosmetic for people in the future. Kind of a bad will move. There's another way to say that but I don't think Cordo would like it if I typed it out.

Really though they could give out the cosmetic for your 100th reaper or whatever hardcore dungeon completion. What ever you want to call it.

I do agree the power in the tree's is ridiculous. I also find it funny that some people that have over 156 points want anything more than some cosmetics.

As for the rules. Nobody likes a rules lawyer. Gygax ordained the words of his rule books to be guidelines not absolutes.

You should step off your toxic high horse. And not be so angry about what I am doing in this game. It's my game I play not yours. Btw I was looking for why don't you just bump up to R5 or 6 while you level. Instead of long winded diatribe.

[Tyrande]

Not really into taking away a cosmetic for people in the future. Kind of a bad will move. There's another way to say that but I don't think Cordo would like it if I typed it out.

Really though they could give out the cosmetic for your 100th reaper or whatever hardcore dungeon completion. What ever you want to call it.

I do agree the power in the tree's is ridiculous. I also find it funny that some people that have over 156 points want anything more than some cosmetics.

As for the rules. Nobody likes a rules lawyer. Gygax ordained the words of his rule books to be guidelines not absolutes.

You should step off your toxic high horse. And not be so angry about what I am doing in this game. It's my game I play not yours. Btw I was looking for why don't you just bump up to R5 or 6 while you level. Instead of long winded diatribe.

Common, we're on the same side, same team. Notice I was saying that reaper trees are bad for the game. I am not asking for more rewards.
In fact, I am asking to remove all reaper rewards and keep only cosmetics.
I was saying that where Epic Elite and now reaper is going. I was not angry nor disdained as how you want only R1->R4 face-rolling, I could care less.
I was saying 5 years ago for the people that previously found Epic Elite too easy, and now R10 easy, can play hard core mode in their quests.

As for you personally, you can play whatever mode you found face-rolling.

[shmagmhar]

I like reaper mode. I run stuff on more than R1 in herioc not for RXP . just because i like to for fun

[Edyil]

Hello folks,

Servers are down so I'm reading the forums and stumbled on this. A buddy of mine and I just returned after years and years of neglecting DDO. We are enjoying the game now way more than at release. So if the goal is to get folks to come play DDO, mission accomplished (for us). Considering new, returning and non-expert players should also be a consideration in these discussions. I understand that most posts like these are regarding sustainability. Mine is a different perspective.

History -
We played for several months at release and then moved on. Mostly due to time constraints and not wanting to pay to play. Back then there were many leveling gaps unless you paid for content. I believe we each had several lvl 15ish toons but that was about it. We came back with no expectations or experience. Looking at the DDObuilder was (is) mind boggling. Learning the lingo and acronyms are as well. And once we learn the lingo for one class, we basically have to start over for the next.

We struggled along with new toons until about level 15ish. During that run we tried many R1s and mostly got smoked every time. It didn't matter if they were 2 levels below or two above, they wasted us.

Around that level someone invited us to a guild. We accepted, learned how to get to the airship and got buffs! Those buffs allowed us to do R1 and rarely R2 more frequently, but still with many deaths. Occasionally we would get around 1k or so Rexp and cheered! It's awesome! But for the most part we gave up on reapers for a couple reasons. 1) They take us way too long and the deaths are brutal as far as our limited time to group and play. 2) We were out-leveling too many areas in our mission to actually resurrect for the first time. This made it more difficult to want to go back and redo content for reaper exp.

Now -
Eventually, after two months of our return and starting over again, we hit 30! We ended up with 4 or 5 reaper levels and reincarnated to 20 then to 1. We are now level 7 again. But this time we are more careful about which dungeons / Sagas to do and when. Now we are able to do reaper 1-4 fairly regularly on old content (deaths are still common but not regular). Newer content (to us) with larger mob packs are quite a bit tougher, even at the lower levels and we avoid them for reaper exp.

Anyway, the point I'm making is just for perspective. This is hard. Quite hard really. We work at it. And it's slow and painful many times. Almost all maps must be pulled up when on reaper. And when someone says it takes 5 minutes to farm quick reaper exp, that means 20 to 30 for us.

Reaper trees might be powerful. Or OP. I wouldn't know. But I do know this about OP (from our small experience):
1) Guild buffs - Way OP. Those propelled us to 30
2) DDOWiki - This is key to OP (rather than OP, its key to blowing through content)
2.5) Revel / Ravenloft weapons (I know those are junk compared to yours)
3) DDO Forums - Major tool for min/max (same as 2 above - used to blow through content)
4) Builder tools
5) Everything else

* one major note is P2P. That might be at 1 here depending on play style vs money spent

Solution for "Reaper is too easy" -
My opinion here shouldn't be considered a solution at all. I don't know anything compared to anyone else. But since this is about reaper mode I thought I would chime in so folks can do some good eye rolling and get a chuckle. 1) Remove guild buffs for reaper. If not remove, then lose 10% benefit per reaper level. 2) Remove non-combat healing (other than self healing, wands, pots etc) in reaper. 3) Randomize trap locations and add 1 trap/puzzle per R level 4) 10% increase to mob power per hireling. 5) 1% mob power per R point spent (apply half to epics)

Solution for Reaper trees OP - I have no understanding of this... We have 6 RP. Maybe don't spend them next reincarnation? Start / join a guild that doesn't allow RP? How about adding a toggle for group/dungeon setup that prevent RP for dungeons and/or raids? 0.1% mob power per R point spent per player in group.

For new and probably many returning players this is such a non issue. Worrying about easy game play is years out of our reach. Just hope we last that long If you want a tough game experience, then just start a new toon and don't use any of the 6 items I listed above. Trust me. That is tough and its how we restarted.

[Raithe]

Solution for "Reaper is too easy" ...

No one should be listening to the malarky. These people are not soloing level 32 raids on R10, and they aren't even really looking for challenge (which they could find if by no other way than soloing level 32 raids on R10). What they are actually complaining about is the lack of challenge while grinding and lack of availabllity of more character power. They want more, and more, and more, and the problem with their endless quest for bigger numbers is that it spills over, out of their arena and into the arena of people just looking for adventure.

Years ago it would have been quite a chore soloing quests like "Invaders" or "Chamber of Coalescence" on elite with top notch gear and maybe even 1 or 2 levels above the quest level. They have destroyed that content balance utterly and people are soloing raids now all the time. It's why I stopped allowing anyone with Warlock levels to join my group, and eventually why I stopped allowing anyone at all from joining. Quests are barely difficult anymore with first life characters that have no Reaper points and very little raid gear. Note that most of this is actually scaling changes to quests that make things easier for smaller groups, with the rampant power creep just being a cherry on top to satisfy the pay-to-win fanatics.

Still, I can find enough challenge for my tastes. I just don't like the hypocrisy that is making it more and more difficult as the years go by.

[Raithe]

It's an increase to character power on-par with past lives that takes somewhat less time and can be run concurrently...

I've been playing first-life characters in groups for several years while the TR process has been available and I have both first life and TR characters. The difference between classes is larger than the difference between TRs and first lifers. My TR characters are not my most powerful.

Once again, don't pay attention to the malarky.

[Ereshkigal]

I've been hunting around for people to play the game with in recent months and I've also been trying to get friends from other games to play with me in DDO.

The enormous barrier to play for new players and for returning players is reaper mode - specifically the health and other benefits in the reaper trees. Specifically the environment that a lot of the player base prefers to play in at this point.

The problem is that enough of the player base has converted to reaper only mode at this point that it deprives players not ready to play in reaper mode of the companionship they need to play in an MMO. The people I have brought in were favorably impressed with the game initially but very harsh in the assessments they made of the time commitment required to get up to speed and play normally in groups. Typical comment was "why should I keep getting punked in reaper mode for months when I can go play WoW and get groups instantly and also contribute in those groups?" The person in question was playing a TWF Ranger, which obviously is not an optimal choice at this point, and he was dying a half dozen times a run in r1 because anytime he got close to a mob on his first lifer he got punked with a one shot death. This experience was by no means unusual. Basically anybody I have brought in over the last couple of years has had the same experience.

I do make Elite/Epic Elite groups all the time and I do run those for the people I have tried to introduce to DDO. However I'm not around all the time and I'm not interested in dodging reaper mode all the time because I appreciate the experience bump it provides.

I have also had the experience of joining higher reaper groups at times and feeling fairly useless. I do this when I want to play challenging content, or endgame if you'd prefer, however it takes a major commitment on one character to get to the point I am not a drag in groups and that commitment is extreme compared to any other MMO I've played. This effectively cuts me, a 14 year veteran of DDO, off from the normal raiding scene at this point. It's not that I couldn't get my main to the point that she's good in those groups it's just that I can't do anything else from an entertainment perspective and also do that.

I guess the overall point I am trying to make is that if you create a social game and then put a multi-year requirement or a 60 hour a week requirement on that game, well you've turned it from a social game into something entirely different.

I'm pretty sure if SSG did an honest evaluation of what reaper mode actually did to the player base they'd realize it was a terrible mistake.

Eh, I don't think R1 is much different from Elite. in fact once you've gathered some reaper points, R1 is far easier than Elite imo. I feel like it's not that dramatic if new players have to feel like new players while they pike their way through some adventures when they're new. At least if they're doing reaper levels, they're building reaper XP that'll help them in the long run.

[Xgya]

Eh, I don't think R1 is much different from Elite. in fact once you've gathered some reaper points, R1 is far easier than Elite imo. I feel like it's not that dramatic if new players have to feel like new players while they pike their way through some adventures when they're new. At least if they're doing reaper levels, they're building reaper XP that'll help them in the long run.

Even with a lot of Reaper points and rather good gear, you can still easily see the difference.
The healing penalty you can almost ignore eventually, but the damage reduction really slows down the speed at which you finish quests, unless you were flat-out overkilling mobs on Elite, and even then.

The difference isn't THAT dramatic, but it IS noticeable.
With enough Reaper points, the incoming damage difference becomes moot - to the point it's safer on Reaper, really. But, especially when using weapons, what slows you down is the difference in damage output.

For new players, this can turn an easy quest into an easy slog. It's not that it's that much harder, it's that you're stuck inside the same quest longer.