Devs: Consider postponing the Shiradi Nerf

[Stormraiser]

Hi Devs,

Here is your chance to gain some goodwill very cheaply. Your Shiradi tweak suggestions and math support are getting blasted all over the thread, with nearly everyone explaining the nerf is way too much.

Why not postpone this one change and do some more research on it? Or perhaps only tweak the SP boost from 100% to 50%?

All the best,
Storm

Sign if you agree!

[Retsam]

The louder people complain about it, the more likely they'll ram it through.

If players REALLY don't want it adjusted, its likely broken?.. right?.. right?.. ....


-_______-

[Lamassut]

The louder people complain about it, the more likely they'll ram it through.

If players REALLY don't want it adjusted, its likely broken?.. right?.. right?.. ....


-_______-

It's not that Shiradi is op, it's more that people are tired of continuous overnerfs and devs forcing them to respec their builds. It becomes really tired and annoying. And when you can't plan and be sure that your builds aren't going to be annihilated in a short time, you don't really want to play or invest in the game either.

Personally I think draconic is better than shiradi for 90% of builds anyway, so most people will gain from the change. A small number of builds will be totally killed, but SSG has a glorious history of killing builds and diminishing the diversity of the game, so nothing new here either. Some players will leave and others will respec.

How long the company can withstand a small but continuous drain of players is another story. This game heavily penalizes new players, so I don't see an influx of new blood coming in either.

[LT218]

Poorly tested, heavy-handed nerfs like this have one net result - less options for the affected classes/builds.

The irony is, that result is 100% directly counter to SSG's stated main reason for the whole destiny rework in the first place - more build diversity and options. At this rate, give it 6 more months and we'll be back to all evo casters running in Draconic, all melee DPS running in Dreadnaught or FotW, etc. just like it was before their grand diversity changes.

If this continues, the devs could have saved themselves many hours by just deleting all the destiny trees and making 4 generic ones. They could have really phoned it in and named them "Tank Tree, DPS Tree, Heal Tree, DC Tree". Easy peasy, fast and squeezy.

Maybe one day we'll get some devs that learn how to actually play their game at a high level of proficiency and can understand the impact changes have instead of just guessing or making assumptions based on flawed, non-realistic lab scenarios that do not even remotely reflect how things work in-game.

[gravisrs]

The irony is, that result is 100% directly counter to SSG's stated main reason for the whole destiny rework in the first place - more build diversity and options. At this rate, give it 6 more months and we'll be back to all evo casters running in Draconic, all melee DPS running in Dreadnaught or FotW, etc. just like it was before their grand diversity changes.

Exactly this! Railroading builds is something that is killing this game slowly.

[WaxLyrical]

Exactly this! Railroading builds is something that is killing this game slowly.

You say slowly, I say quickly

[Sarandra]

[...]with nearly everyone explaining the nerf is way too much[...]

You mean, those that post on here and are affected, yeah.

Not signed. If SSG found a nerf needed, it must have been overpowered. From what I read, it was an Easy-button to DPS. Spam some MMs and get crazy damage for hardly any SP?

I hear people talking about "builds" regarding this Shiradi thing... a build that abuses measly spells to gain massive DOTs? Is that even a build!? Get real folks, and quit the whining.

[WaxLyrical]

You mean, those that post on here and are affected, yeah.

Not signed. If SSG found a nerf needed, it must have been overpowered. From what I read, it was an Easy-button to DPS. Spam some MMs and get crazy damage for hardly any SP?

I hear people talking about "builds" regarding this Shiradi thing... a build that abuses measly spells to gain massive DOTs? Is that even a build!? Get real folks, and quit the whining.

Do you live under a bridge and take damage from fire and acid?

[jskinner937]

You mean, those that post on here and are affected, yeah.

Not signed. If SSG found a nerf needed, it must have been overpowered. From what I read, it was an Easy-button to DPS. Spam some MMs and get crazy damage for hardly any SP?

I hear people talking about "builds" regarding this Shiradi thing... a build that abuses measly spells to gain massive DOTs? Is that even a build!? Get real folks, and quit the whining.

Nobody spammed MM and thought it was OP. The MM spammers were the intro caster builds. The builds that exploited Shirardi were the DC casters that took the low hanging fruit in the tree for the damage procs. Ice storms, Druid AOEs were the exploit. The .1 sec cooldown was specifically to stop MM spammers. Hence, an exploit needed nerfed, but killed every other build. It was not the right nerf.

So if you have a point to post, please understand the issue, otherwise your opinion is kind of out of perspective.

[elvesunited]

You mean, those that post on here and are affected, yeah.

Not signed. If SSG found a nerf needed, it must have been overpowered. From what I read, it was an Easy-button to DPS. Spam some MMs and get crazy damage for hardly any SP?

I hear people talking about "builds" regarding this Shiradi thing... a build that abuses measly spells to gain massive DOTs? Is that even a build!? Get real folks, and quit the whining.

Six months ago, the biggest complaint about the new epic destinies was that they were wildly out of balance with each other. That's when this should have been addressed. Shiradi was on top by a wide margin. Draconic second given the right build. Primal and Exalted both sucked in comparison. Shadowdancer mantle remains a big zero for spellcasters. Players adjusted to the new destinies. Shiradi based casters became viable again. If devs didn't want casters casting weak spells for large shiradi proc damage then they shouldn't have allowed it to be viable 6 months ago. Can't blame the players for that.

Then BOOM. With no warning. Shiradi mantle damage is reduced by a factor of 12. Like Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football. Lucy presents the football then pulls it away in the last second leaving Charlie spawled in the dirt. Sure you can say that Charlie Brown should have known better, but the fault lies with Lucy. Weeks warning should have been given. It should have been tested on Lamania. It should have been part of a package of epic destiny balancing. Shiradi did need balancing. It needed balancing 6 months ago. I won't sugarcoat this one. This was handled poorly.

[GODDEATH]

i have always considered shiradi tree for rangers mostly, if casters can dip there thats great.
If my sorc has to use it to be the best sorc and crit/proc fisherman then well somethings wrong as i am sure they also saw occurring everyone wants to use it clerics, wizards, druids, sorcs, ect. Not really a nerf in my opinion, its balance across the board.

[thwart]

I guess my casters should have been using Shiradi Champion.

[Lanttanno]

i have always considered shiradi tree for rangers mostly, if casters can dip there thats great.
If my sorc has to use it to be the best sorc and crit/proc fisherman then well somethings wrong as i am sure they also saw occurring everyone wants to use it clerics, wizards, druids, sorcs, ect. Not really a nerf in my opinion, its balance across the board.

That's where it went so wrong I think, assuming people are using it = OP. I think more the point, why arent clerics using EA, why arent druids using PA, why aren't wizards using shadowdancer, why aren't bards using fateslinger? It should have been about how shiradi measures up to other builds, not about how prominent it is, that way you highlight how bad the other mantles are..... It also shouldn't be about opinions at all, it's not like this stuff is subjective, you can calculate it down to min max ranges pretty accurately and compare. Before the change, that range was either side of draconic incarnation meaning that it was better on some builds by about 30% dps, and worse than draconic on some builds by about 50%, which is fine... With the announced 'fix' of 7% proc rate and 100% scaling, the top end goes down to 48% of the draconic dps, and the bottom end goes down to like 11% which is useless.

If you apply your logic globally, they will 100% nerf draconic next which would put casters so far behind melee or ranged dps.

[Aelonwy]

This level of nerfage is called Cow-from-Orbit. But at least here they show a willingness to listen : Steelstar's post right here

It's not that Shiradi is op, it's more that people are tired of continuous overnerfs and devs forcing them to respec their builds. It becomes really tired and annoying. And when you can't plan and be sure that your builds aren't going to be annihilated in a short time, you don't really want to play or invest in the game either.

Personally I think draconic is better than shiradi for 90% of builds anyway, so most people will gain from the change. A small number of builds will be totally killed, but SSG has a glorious history of killing builds and diminishing the diversity of the game, so nothing new here either. Some players will leave and others will respec.

This^. 8 of my 14 alts are casters, only 1 used Shiradi as her main tree, my Feydark Illusionist/Illusion Archmage. I'll play around with her after the above change makes it in and see if I feel she's still worthwhile or I'll respec her to Draconic where most of my casters are already. (*YAWN*)

On another note, I have the patience and willingness to respec... but... my husband got me involved in this game, D&D kept me interested... but... my hubby is loosing his interest and his patience and his willingness to respec. He loathes TRing and sometimes that's the only way to fix a character after massive game changes like the epic destiny revamp or cow-from-orbit nerfage like this... he really doesn't like enjoying a character one day only to be forced to remake them after an update because everything he enjoyed about them the day before got kicked in the nads. Luckily, he doesn't play casters really. Only has one. But its getting more and more difficult to continue playing because my hubby is loosing interest and patience and joy. He's lost his joy for the game, and its taking the fun away from it for all of us.

Poorly tested, heavy-handed nerfs like this have one net result - less options for the affected classes/builds.

The irony is, that result is 100% directly counter to SSG's stated main reason for the whole destiny rework in the first place - more build diversity and options. At this rate, give it 6 more months and we'll be back to all evo casters running in Draconic, all melee DPS running in Dreadnaught or FotW, etc. just like it was before their grand diversity changes.

If this continues, the devs could have saved themselves many hours by just deleting all the destiny trees and making 4 generic ones. They could have really phoned it in and named them "Tank Tree, DPS Tree, Heal Tree, DC Tree". Easy peasy, fast and squeezy.

Yeah. I agree. I already feel like there wasn't much worthwhile to choose from depending on playstyle and this nerf just encourages more uniformity not diversity.

Despite having a Shiradi caster a small part of me almost wishes they would just rip the band-aid clean off. They've almost seemed to see-saw on their stance of whether or not Shiradi should benefit just ranged or ranged & casters from the very beginning. Plus the Shiradi tree as it stands now suffers from the split focus of casting and ranged. It just doesn't feel like there is enough to choose from to get to or even take t5 if you are only one or the other - ranged or caster. Part of me would be relieved if they just straight up made Shiradi ranged focused and created another tree for Illusions and charms, sonic and force that absolutely focused on those topics. They've made the trees so schizophrenic, at least for caster trees, that they aren't realizing the versatility they promised.

Six months ago, the biggest complaint about the new epic destinies was that they were wildly out of balance with each other. That's when this should have been addressed. *snip*

Then BOOM. With no warning. Shiradi mantle damage is reduced by a factor of 12. Like Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football. Lucy presents the football then pulls it away in the last second leaving Charlie spawled in the dirt. Sure you can say that Charlie Brown should have known better, but the fault lies with Lucy. Weeks warning should have been given. It should have been tested on Lamania. It should have been part of a package of epic destiny balancing. Shiradi did need balancing. It needed balancing 6 months ago. I won't sugarcoat this one. This was handled poorly.

I'll stand up for the devs on this one. They told us that they wouldn't make a bunch of knee-jerk reaction balance changes right away and that we probably wouldn't see such until they got a feel for how we were using the trees, I seem to remember someone suggesting late spring for the first such balance changes.

On the other hand, I do agree we should have seen this on Lammania or at least seen a proposal long before the cow plummeted out of the sky.

And unfortunately, I expect the next COW to land on Draconic because I think most casters (that weren't already there) will flee to that tree unless they make improvements to the other caster trees. Of course some people have this theory that if everyone is using it, it MUST BE OP... they just don't realize that the other half of the equation is that sometimes most everyone uses it because its the only decent choice.

[Aelonwy]

Regarding the above linked comment by Steelstar, has anyone seen a mention of when that change might happen? He said be able to preview it shortly so? Assuming it might be on next Lammania build?

[droid327]

And unfortunately, I expect the next COW to land on Draconic because I think most casters (that weren't already there) will flee to that tree unless they make improvements to the other caster trees.

I'm worried about this too - before the patch, Shiradi and Draconic stood far above FS and EA in terms of Mantle proc damage...like order of magnitude above, where FS and EA arent even viable DPS options

They nerfed Shiradi all the way down to FS/EA territory, which leaves Draconic as the only viable option now. I'm worried they'll nerf Draconic next, thinking it'll send casters scattering more evenly between all the 'caster' destinies

It wont. It'll just send everyone scattering to a Martial build, or at least a DC caster, because if ALL the nuker options suck equally, then people wont simply play them equally - they just wont play any of them at all...

This is definitely a situation where they need to bring the other options UP to create more diversity, not nerf everything DOWN to pointlessness

[EinarMal]

Regarding the above linked comment by Steelstar, has anyone seen a mention of when that change might happen? He said be able to preview it shortly so? Assuming it might be on next Lammania build?

Should be a hot fix lol. They can nerf it out of orbit in a day with no notice, seems like they could change a couple of values in a day as well.

[Aelonwy]

I'm worried about this too - before the patch, Shiradi and Draconic stood far above FS and EA in terms of Mantle proc damage...like order of magnitude above, where FS and EA arent even viable DPS options

They nerfed Shiradi all the way down to FS/EA territory, which leaves Draconic as the only viable option now. I'm worried they'll nerf Draconic next, thinking it'll send casters scattering more evenly between all the 'caster' destinies

It wont. It'll just send everyone scattering to a Martial build, or at least a DC caster, because if ALL the nuker options suck equally, then people wont simply play them equally - they just wont play any of them at all...

This is definitely a situation where they need to bring the other options UP to create more diversity, not nerf everything DOWN to pointlessness

I am concerned about this... the Shiradi nerf came with zero warning or communication beforehand and I do not feel confident that Draconic is safe from such heavy handed treatment...especially now that it is the obvious best choice for most casters. Not because it is perfect but because most other caster destinies are subpar and mostly because all/most all? other caster destinies are split focus between casting and some other aspect such as ranged/melee/rogue.

[Seph1roth5]

I never found a use for shiradi on any of my casters either. Well, I TRIED to use it on my weirdo shadar-kai warlock who had tons of rando aoe ****, but realized none of my aura/blasts were triggering the mantle.

I think shiradi was strong but only a very tiny handful of people actually exploited it. Instead of considering the other 99% of players they just throw a giant nerf hammer at it. Same thing they did with amber temple, inquis, etc.

It's like you're in charge of delivering pizzas, shoveling snow, getting the mail, flattening soda cans, and putting up christmas lights, and you have a tank. You COULD get out and NOT use the tank for some of these, but you're already in it so...might as well use it for everything.

[adamkatt]

The Stay Good proc was awesome. i saw hits just from it from 2k - 6k on my warlock.