Downtime Notice: Wednesday, April 6th, 9:00 AM - 1:00 PM Eastern (-4 GMT)

[gravisrs]

If there is a proc-problem with MM-spammers why not just increase internal cooldown from 0.1s to sth like 0.25s but only for spells? (Is it possible to have different cooldowns for spells and ranged/melee?)

This will make sure no single AOE spell will proc Prism more than once, while non-MM-spammers can still have a piece of cake.

[WaxLyrical]

I see this as a test for the new producer. Will Tolero get a grip or be pushed around by the other devs? Will they ever learn that if they are putting us through a heavy nerf, it ought to be sweetened with some more fixes on the other side of the balance sheet?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, as The Who would say.

[Epicsoul]

Change the cool down from .1 sec to 1 second. This evens out better for the type of caster. Namely spellsinger. The ice storm procs were ridiculous. Balance is about the proc rate cooldown, not the %.

Do not increase the cool down unless it is spell casting specific. Ranged do not need to be effected by this nerf in any way.

[Loromir]

....

Ultimately, if we did end up moving the needle too low here, it'll be easy to resolve. We'll have eyes on it.

Might be easy to resolve....but track record indicates once nerfed....always nerfed. Even if it's underperforming on live....it will never get resolved.

[SiliconScout]

Why make this a big eff you to ranged builds too? Far too often they have been caught in the crossfire of dealing with Shiradi Missile Spamming casters.

Unless I am reading it wrong, and please let me know if I am, while the change doesn't impact the scaling on Ranged power (which is pathetic in comparison to spell power already anyway) reducing the proc rate is going to hurt as it's not like it happened a heck of a lot to begin with. A 5% proc rate is just adding insult to injury here.

[WetWip]

Post-Patch Shiradi:
3d100+100 and another 3d100+100 dice, 50% Spell Power scaling, 5% proc rate, 0.1 second cooldown.

Working from this and the rest of your post, it seems you are targeting an overall proc rate of about once every 2 seconds.

A cool down of 1 second with a 50% proc rate would give the target proc rate of about once every 2 seconds.

This still meets your goal of retaining Shiradi's signature or proccing more frequency than other mantels but also allows many casters that are not multi proc spammers (or whatever the OP build you are trying to address is) to use and have fun with the mantel.


As anecdotal feedback, I have been doing ERs about one a week since the new destinies were released on DPS Cleric and Favored Soul builds. I purposely did multiple lives with each caster mantel to get a feel for them. The only two that I enjoyed at all were Draconic and Shiradi. For my builds and play style, I found Draconic and Shiradi to be pretty balanced.

The past several lives I have taken both mantels and switch back and forth based on encounters. I can barely get one proc a second so the changes to Shiradi make it unusable for me. This is not the end of the world as I can just stay in Draconic and invest the Shiradi points elsewhere. My concern is really that now Draconic will be the only mantel for DPS casters and will be significantly outperforming the other mantels. This will lead to Draconic getting the same treatment in a month or two and as a non spamming DPS caster I will not have a mantel that brings any fun to the game.

Another piece of anecdotal feedback, I hardly notice Double Rainbow at all while playing and gave up on it. My assumption is that an even lower proc rate for Stay Good/Frosty will make them equally unimpressive.

Wasn't the idea behind Shiradi casting having a higher proc rate than ranged based on spells being much slower than ranged attacks? With the exception of some min/maxed expliot build you are trying to address, is this still not the case?

[Phatlewts]

Don't worry, they nerfed monks into the ground, but then they brought them back up when they saw how bad it was.... oh wait.

[Kalapurka]

Mantle of sound and fury doesnt make sense in a caster (the proc being in the center of your character), plus they really screw sonic caster nerfing shiradi and Draconic incarnation not having a SONIC damage option.

Im really bummed becaus bards is my favorite spellcaster on the game.

[Cordovan]

The game worlds have reopened.

[jskinner937]

Don't worry, they nerfed monks into the ground, but then they brought them back up when they saw how bad it was.... oh wait.

Haha, exactly. Shiradi casters are again a thing of the past. Too bad new alts or new players that want to play casters at end game are going to hate life. Too bad casters will be limited in raids again. Bad, bad decision to nerf shirardi casters to this amount. I was looking forward to playing a bard SS next life and staying epic. But *** is a Spell Singer suppose to consider for an ED now? Fatesinger is horrible, draconic and primal do not reward sonic SP. Hope I can get my DC high enough for a wierd caster?

SMH.

It's really getting old when justifications are being made around specific builds with regards to EDs. Please focus on the problem and fix this instead of a generalized nerf that has unintended consequences for other builds. Steelstars math is fundamentally flawed and likely killed more than just over performing MM/ice storm spammers as a result.

[LT218]

Steelstars math is fundamentally flawed and likely killed more than just over performing MM/ice storm spammers as a result.

The numbers were *technically* correct. They just have absolutely zero basis to the in-game reality.

That's been their problem for years. They don't know how to play their own game at a high level, so they just make decisions based on pure numbers and sterile lab scenarios that don't even remotely resemble the impact the changes have in-game.

Their secondary problem is that they apparently have no idea how to start small and work their way up to an appropriate balance level. They see a single ant and burn the entire yard down to the dirt.

[Cordovan]

The personal attacks against employees in this thread and elsewhere need to stop, regardless of how passionate you feel about this release note. Cool off for a minute before posting if you have to.

[Steelstar]

We appreciate the work you've done to provide us with detailed feedback on our Shiradi adjustments in today's patch. We said yesterday that we were open to making further change, and we want to follow up today with some of our plans. There are a few things we need to clear up, though, first, so we are on the same page before going into the details:

1. The procs from caster to ranged shiradi mantle are isolated from one another - changes to one do not affect the other (unless we'd like them to) so your ranged shiradi characters shouldn't see any changes at all. This is specifically all about casters!
2. The scaling on caster procs is 100%, not 200% - this one is definitely on us for keeping a bad tooltip around.

With that out of the way, we've been taking a close look at the feedback so far and have planned a follow-up adjustment to Shiradi that you'll be able to preview shortly. They involve the following changes:

• Changing the proc rate to 7% up from 5% (since 7 is a lucky number, and the old-ED version had 7%, so 7s it is)
• Adjusting the damage scaling back to 100% from 50%
• Changing the dice of the procs to a slightly more 7-focused dice layout (Hint: there are 7s in it. The goal here is higher highs and a lower floor, emphasizing the random thematic element of the tree while still achieving what our original change was meant to do)
• And finally... changing the options of what's available, element-wise, to cater to a broader but slightly different group of casters (Hint: this means including Sonic, Poison, and Force. OK, that one wasn't really a hint at all. )

As always, we appreciate your passionate feedback!

[jskinner937]

We appreciate the work you've done to provide us with detailed feedback on our Shiradi adjustments in today's patch. We said yesterday that we were open to making further change, and we want to follow up today with some of our plans. There are a few things we need to clear up, though, first, so we are on the same page before going into the details:

1. The procs from caster to ranged shiradi mantle are isolated from one another - changes to one do not affect the other (unless we'd like them to) so your ranged shiradi characters shouldn't see any changes at all. This is specifically all about casters!
2. The scaling on caster procs is 100%, not 200% - this one is definitely on us for keeping a bad tooltip around.

With that out of the way, we've been taking a close look at the feedback so far and have planned a follow-up adjustment to Shiradi that you'll be able to preview shortly. They involve the following changes:

• Changing the proc rate to 7% up from 5% (since 7 is a lucky number, and the old-ED version had 7%, so 7s it is)
• Adjusting the damage scaling back to 100% from 50%
• Changing the dice of the procs to a slightly more 7-focused dice layout (Hint: there are 7s in it. The goal here is higher highs and a lower floor, emphasizing the random thematic element of the tree while still achieving what our original change was meant to do)
• And finally... changing the options of what's available, element-wise, to cater to a broader but slightly different group of casters (Hint: this means including Sonic, Poison, and Force. OK, that one wasn't really a hint at all. )

As always, we appreciate your passionate feedback!

I personally would look forward to EA/Primal/Draconic with some more flavor to sonic/force casters. And thematically Primal/Draconic for posion SP. I appreciate the reply. As I mentioned in previous posts, I never cared for shirardi, but sonic and warlock casters, unfortunately have no alternative optimal destiny.

[NightHiker]

The personal attacks against employees in this thread and elsewhere need to stop, regardless of how passionate you feel about this release note. Cool off for a minute before posting if you have to.

I have edited out one rant, as I recognize it was not productive. Again I apologize for losing my cool for a moment there.

[Monkey_Archer]

Since there seems to be confusion around the damage of mantles, and my own napkin math was insufficient, I thought I'd do the math properly... (make with it what you will)

Assumptions for endgame builds:
900 spell power, 75% crit, 100 multiplier for primary spell type (simplified to 25x multiplier per proc, or 13.75x with 50% spell power scaling)
600 spell power, 50% crit, 50% multiplier for other spell types (simplified to 12.25x multiplier per proc, or 7x with 50% spell power scaling)
Throwing dagger, 300x2 ranged power, 200% doubleshot, 1.35 attacks per second (simplified to 28.35x multiplier per proc)
TWF khopesh+1range/multi/19-20+2 (1.95), 300 melee power, 100% doublestrike, 100% offhand, 65%offhand doublestrike, 2 attacks per second = 1.95*4*3.65 (simplified to 56.94 multiplier on damage)

Rank ordered in terms of dps potential:

Caster Shiradi (old)
Prism 251.5* 12.25 multiplier * 30% proc rate = 924 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 25 multiplier * 30% proc rate = 1886.25 dps
Total: 2810 dps, 5620.5 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 14051 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Ranged Shiradi
Prism 251.5 * 28.35 multiplier * 15% proc rate = 1070 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 28.35 multiplier * 15% proc rate = 1070 dps
Total: 2140 dps single target, 6420 dps vs 3 targets

Draconic mantle
285 * 25 /2 seconds = 3562.5 dps single target only

Caster Shiradi (with 7% 100% scaling)
Prism 251.5 * 12.25 multiplier * 7% proc rate = 216 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 25 * 7% proc rate = 440 dps dps
Total: 656 dps, 1312 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 3280 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Caster Shiradi (with 5% 50% scaling)
Prism 251.5 * 7 multiplier * 5% proc rate = 88 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 13.75 * 5% proc rate = 173 dps
Total: 261 dps, 522 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 1305 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Exalted Angel
150 * 25 multiplier * 15% proc = 562 dps
150 * 12.25 * 15% proc = 276 dps
Total: 838 dps single target only

Holy mantle
(3 Enhancement + 7.5[w]) * 56.94 multiplier = 597.87 dps

GMOF/LD
7.5[w] * 56.94 multiplier = 427 dps

[NightHiker]

We appreciate the work you've done to provide us with detailed feedback on our Shiradi adjustments in today's patch. We said yesterday that we were open to making further change, and we want to follow up today with some of our plans. There are a few things we need to clear up, though, first, so we are on the same page before going into the details:

1. The procs from caster to ranged shiradi mantle are isolated from one another - changes to one do not affect the other (unless we'd like them to) so your ranged shiradi characters shouldn't see any changes at all. This is specifically all about casters!
2. The scaling on caster procs is 100%, not 200% - this one is definitely on us for keeping a bad tooltip around.

With that out of the way, we've been taking a close look at the feedback so far and have planned a follow-up adjustment to Shiradi that you'll be able to preview shortly. They involve the following changes:

• Changing the proc rate to 7% up from 5% (since 7 is a lucky number, and the old-ED version had 7%, so 7s it is)
• Adjusting the damage scaling back to 100% from 50%
• Changing the dice of the procs to a slightly more 7-focused dice layout (Hint: there are 7s in it. The goal here is higher highs and a lower floor, emphasizing the random thematic element of the tree while still achieving what our original change was meant to do)
• And finally... changing the options of what's available, element-wise, to cater to a broader but slightly different group of casters (Hint: this means including Sonic, Poison, and Force. OK, that one wasn't really a hint at all. )

As always, we appreciate your passionate feedback!

That's certainly a move in the right direction, although I hope that does not take looking at some of the builds that used Shiradi as a stop gap in the near future out of the wish list, resources allowing.

Again, I apologize personally to you for losing my cool. Even though I did disagree with your reasoning, and still am not sure the numbers are in the right spot, I was out of line for a moment there.

Cheers,
NH

[EinarMal]

Since there seems to be confusion around the damage of mantles, and my own napkin math was insufficient, I thought I'd do the math properly... (make with it what you will)

Assumptions for endgame builds:
900 spell power, 75% crit, 100 multiplier for primary spell type (simplified to 25x multiplier per proc, or 13.75x with 50% spell power scaling)
600 spell power, 50% crit, 50% multiplier for other spell types (simplified to 12.25x multiplier per proc, or 7x with 50% spell power scaling)
Throwing dagger, 300x2 ranged power, 200% doubleshot, 1.35 attacks per second (simplified to 28.35x multiplier per proc)
TWF khopesh+1range/multi/19-20+2 (1.95), 300 melee power, 100% doublestrike, 100% offhand, 65%offhand doublestrike, 2 attacks per second = 1.95*4*3.65 (simplified to 56.94 multiplier on damage)

Rank ordered in terms of dps potential:

Caster Shiradi (old)
Prism 251.5* 12.25 multiplier * 30% proc rate = 924 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 25 multiplier * 30% proc rate = 1886.25 dps
Total: 2810 dps, 5620.5 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 14051 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Ranged Shiradi
Prism 251.5 * 28.35 multiplier * 15% proc rate = 1070 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 28.35 multiplier * 15% proc rate = 1070 dps
Total: 2140 dps single target, 6420 dps vs 3 targets

Draconic mantle
285 * 25 /2 seconds = 3562.5 dps single target only

Caster Shiradi (with 7% 100% scaling)
Prism 251.5 * 12.25 multiplier * 7% proc rate = 216 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 25 * 7% proc rate = 440 dps dps
Total: 656 dps, 1312 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 3280 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Caster Shiradi (with 5% 50% scaling)
Prism 251.5 * 7 multiplier * 5% proc rate = 88 dps
Frosty 251.5 * 13.75 * 5% proc rate = 173 dps
Total: 261 dps, 522 dps with 2 procs per second single target, 1305 dps vs 5 targets with AOE spells

Exalted Angel
150 * 25 multiplier * 15% proc = 562 dps
150 * 12.25 * 15% proc = 276 dps
Total: 838 dps single target only

Holy mantle
(3 Enhancement + 7.5[w]) * 56.94 multiplier = 597.87 dps

GMOF/LD
7.5[w] * 56.94 multiplier = 427 dps

This is not realistic, 600 spell power, 50% crit, 50% multiplier for other spell types (simplified to 12.25x multiplier per proc, or 7x with 50% spell power scaling). The spell power is, but no way you have 50% critical/mult. in every element at least for most builds/classes.

Shiradi also does not proc more than 2x on AOE for a single cast because of the .1 cooldown. To me you also cannot compare melee/ranged/caster just on the basis of mantle alone. There are many other DPS factors.

[jskinner937]

The personal attacks against employees in this thread and elsewhere need to stop, regardless of how passionate you feel about this release note. Cool off for a minute before posting if you have to.

We play games to have fun. And yeah many are passionate about them. I merely pointed out the flaw in the logic behind the nerf. In my opinion, to avoid this type of outrage, the dev team should put more thought into how nerfs have unintended consequences. Or at least bring up a discussion.

When certain builds are far overperforming, I think I speak for most that we understand nerfs may be necessary. But when nerfs go extreme and affect more than the intended outliers, literally killing other builds completey, that is another thing. ergo the passion, our builds no longer are fun. And its not like you guys are throwing free +20 hearts around these days. It is simply not fair in my opinion that a player should spend resources/money to fix something broken by an unintended change.

My advice, be more transparent. Open dialogue. Adjustments can be fine tuned much better with open communication.

[Arctigis]

We appreciate the work you've done to provide us with detailed feedback on our Shiradi adjustments in today's patch. We said yesterday that we were open to making further change, and we want to follow up today with some of our plans. There are a few things we need to clear up, though, first, so we are on the same page before going into the details:

1. The procs from caster to ranged shiradi mantle are isolated from one another - changes to one do not affect the other (unless we'd like them to) so your ranged shiradi characters shouldn't see any changes at all. This is specifically all about casters!
2. The scaling on caster procs is 100%, not 200% - this one is definitely on us for keeping a bad tooltip around.

With that out of the way, we've been taking a close look at the feedback so far and have planned a follow-up adjustment to Shiradi that you'll be able to preview shortly. They involve the following changes:

• Changing the proc rate to 7% up from 5% (since 7 is a lucky number, and the old-ED version had 7%, so 7s it is)
• Adjusting the damage scaling back to 100% from 50%
• Changing the dice of the procs to a slightly more 7-focused dice layout (Hint: there are 7s in it. The goal here is higher highs and a lower floor, emphasizing the random thematic element of the tree while still achieving what our original change was meant to do)
• And finally... changing the options of what's available, element-wise, to cater to a broader but slightly different group of casters (Hint: this means including Sonic, Poison, and Force. OK, that one wasn't really a hint at all. )

As always, we appreciate your passionate feedback!

I'm still not convinced this is the right solution - unless you want Shiradi Caster to be synonmous with MM spammer?. What you're proposing
still nukes single target DPS for many builds - e.g. ES bursting Warlock (if there are any still around). I know you've said elsewhere that if a
class required prism+sg/sf to be competitive then there was an issue with the base class that needs work. It's been, what, 5 years since
ES Warlock was gutted? players aren't holding their breath for positive balance adjustments in the base classes. This should've been tweaked
with the cooldown IMO to trim back the outliers.