Shadow Dancer Epic Destiny

[VinoeWhines]

After a few months of this Destiny being out, what would people change or suggest to bring back to this Identity Crisis Tree.
Certain things aren't stacking as was proposed. Incorporeal with Ghostly and Wand and Scroll Mastery.

1. They could hard code it to have Minimum Rogue levels to bring back stealth instakills, like they hard code Weird to have certain levels of casting abilities in Tree(such as ability to Assassinate in order to pick certain abilities. Executioner Strike/Shot, Improve Meld, Consume, Shadow Manipulation and Dark Imbuement.)
2. Bring back Anti-Tremor Sense.
3. Ability to Confuse Reapers and also Distract them(Ventriloquism D&D).
4. Epic Moment should have Dark Discorporation tied to it, 95% Dodge, 25% Stacking Incorporeal to insure you don't get hit and get killed in End Game content.
5. Summon a Shadow Spider that can PK a target and Pull levers.
6. It was suppose to be a high avoidance Tree and so far it doesn't seem so strong in avoidance "Themed".
7. Debuffs should be(unique and) a bit stronger/last longer for Red Named/Doom Reapers.
8. Should have tie-ins to Measure the Foe, Execute, Deadly Strikes, Assassinate and Mechanic/Thief Acrobat Trees/Feats.
9. Meld should not be tied into Epic Strikes but a separate Stronger higher Defensive Tree unless it keeps increasing your Dodge as long as you keep staying stealthed while using attacks in stealth, like Shiv, Sap, Poison Strikes, Lay Traps, Tumble, still in Measure The Foe buff, etc.
10. Be able to Shadow Charm mobs, like Shadow Manipulation(Dominate).

[DYWYPI]

I'd propose the removal of "From the Shadows" or a do a complete rewrite of it. If it was a short-timed Sneaking speed boost effect or allowed you to pass through enemies (or was used outside of Sneak) it might have been nearly viable. It's basically a complete waste of space as it stands. We already know none of the Developers involved with the ED redesign actually enjoy stealth-play style Assassins anyway.

[Saekee]

those are great suggestions

I find stuff is too brief. It seems some concealment stuff is stacking somewhere.

Part of the problem is that DC Cower is just sooooo good.

I really like the idea of sneaking past reapers.

The saving grace of assassins right now for CC for me is the Legendary Goldcurse dagger, insanely good and will probably get nerfed to rubbish soon.

[VinoeWhines]

I'd propose the removal of "From the Shadows" or a do a complete rewrite of it. If it was a short-timed Sneaking speed boost effect or allowed you to pass through enemies (or was used outside of Sneak) it might have been nearly viable. It's basically a complete waste of space as it stands. We already know none of the Developers involved with the ED redesign actually enjoy stealth-play style Assassins anyway.

I believe it does allow you to pass through enemies and get a somewhat Abundant Step/Wings effect which both come in handy. I would say that was the most creative new ability (functionality wise) and everything else has Identiy crisis of a mixed tree that never should of had it's former abilities removed but added to it or adjusted.

It can be used as a get out of danger ability if your being cornered or pursued.
You can hit it and then ddoor on other side of leap or reach a further ledge, especially if you time it with Propulsion boots.


From the Shadows: From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic Strike if you have them trained. Note: This ability requires the character to have the Stealth feat active ("in stealth") to use it.

Ya I would definitely want a rework on it, in that all the enemies you pass through are autmatically "Sapped*" and suffer 1d10 Con and Dex damage from Sneak Attack Shivving them and causing slowdown maybe 10%(tendon slice/Salt effect and on Vorpal "Limb Chopper**") per attack.
*Sap: When this feat is activated, a melee special attack is made. If it hits, the victim is dazed for 18 seconds normally or 30 seconds from a successful sneak attack.

**Limb Chopper: This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the limbs of those it strikes. On an attack roll of 20 which is confirmed as a critical hit, the weapon severs an opponent's limb from its body. Some creatures, including many aberrations and all oozes, have no limbs. Others, such as golems and undead creatures, are not affected by the loss of their limbs. Most other creatures, however, have their movement slowed 75% and attacks slowed by 50% when a limb is cut off.

Also Poison Strikes should be implemented in Tree causing creatures to eventually fall Helpless and knocked down from Poison effects cowering over their bodies in pain also having it possibly Blind them at first.

[jskinner937]

Currently, investing to T5 in this tree is lucrative only for a Fey sorc or maybe a deep gnome/gnome wizzy that is pushing arcane alacrity to max. And it is silly that the best DPS rogue builds are in Divine Crusader. I would propose creating a new martial ED altogether at this point. The niche weird casters do well with this tree. Make a tree like the old SD and maybe add some melee DPS flavor to compete with DC even if not a rogue type.

While on the subject, there seems to be a void of a natural fighting tree as well. With Tabaxi coming out, and with shifter and wolf/bear already here, there could be use for a new divine tree as well. One that promotes using natural fighting or use of claws.

[VinoeWhines]

While on the subject, there seems to be a void of a natural fighting tree as well. With Tabaxi coming out, and with shifter and wolf/bear already here, there could be use for a new divine tree as well. One that promotes using natural fighting or use of claws.

You would think that they would of gone all in, in the Primal Avatar Tree as a thematic style to Natural/Primal tree fighting and would of made a nice landing spot there, but seeing how they Taxonomized Shadow Dancer to an unknown creature of what it use to be, maybe it was best they didn't.

Cut the Strings/Time Stop, is a nice example of creativity and implementation, too bad they didn't focus that as much in Shadow Dancer...

[VinoeWhines]

those are great suggestions

Part of the problem is that DC Cower is just sooooo good.

I'm curious if you could expand on this thought as I thought the proc (C.C.) only lasts for 4 seconds compared to Leg Dread's Dire Charge lasting longer?

[Saekee]

I'm curious if you could expand on this thought as I thought the proc (C.C.) only lasts for 4 seconds compared to Leg Dread's Dire Charge lasting longer?

It is in conjunction with SDK chain attack that makes it crazy good as the chain will sweep all the helpless chumps around you. It also does not break stealth to activate so you can really help a party even without chains—assassinate, Cower, let others THF cleave a bit and pad their kill count.


There is great potential in the matching of 1d6 scaling bane damage to sneak damage in this tree for brief moments that if it was extended to a more sustainable uptick, would make this tree really lethal. Divine Crusader has Law damage 1d6 per epic level which is much poorer than the 40d6 or so sneak dice rogues are getting at cap with gear and destinies. That is 40d6 bane damage (unresistable) plus scaling. It is just that is is good for only a few seconds after the epic strike. I want it to overlap into every epic strike or do something more with the First Blood feat they try to use.

[DYWYPI]

The "From the Shadows" ability does NOT allow you to pass through enemies. For example: get yourself completely surrounded in the quest Haverdasher, enter sneak; trigger 'From the Shadows', and you'll stay stuck in place...

It's advertised as a surprise attack opener and not an emergency "escape death button" when you are only a few HP away from the afterlife. If you are hemmed in (or get hit out of sneak) you won't even be able to use it anyway.

If you ever need Dimension Door to save your life, you've already failed in a sense (completely over your head and using it as a final resort). If 'From the Shadows' were an escape mechanism it should basically just teleport you immediately to the quest entrance.

It's near useless for an Assassin; it's like being randomly fired around by 'Spies in the House' air jets. The assassin doesn't do sweeping strikes to multiple targets... The only attack they perform from Sneak is Assassinate (and they may want to remain in stealth after the 1-hit assassination: to sneak off). They certainly don't randomly long-range fire themselves; at set-distance, straight line only, at ridiculous speed to perform assassinate.

Neither is it of much use as a 'speed boost' because it fires you set-distance in a dead-straight-line (you cannot easily alter trajectory). I couldn't even get any real benefit from using it within 'Fire on Thunder Peak' trying to close the gap with my target, while pursuing fleeing enemies... It's just so poorly designed. Whereas if it were amended, to incorporate what I mentioned in my prior post it'd be dramatically more useful.

As it stands; it's probably not even great for leaping over chasms (-20 penalty to Jump and Tumble skills due to being in stealth). Unfortunately what it closely resembles is a 'last resort' brief: headless chicken propulsion effect...

[MacDubh]

Hopeful Zombie Shadowdancer said "Why was I made into a freakish split personality Monster Meld? It was fun before .... Sob."

[Saekee]

For me the big question is, what will be needed to make me give up Divine Crusader for the tier 5 and other goodies? Cower is uber powerful and you also heal yourself (ok in reaper only a little) but also your fellow party members. Getting a constant 1d6 scaling damage from embidment of law is sweet and easy compared to Shadowdancer’s First Blood thingamajig. Here is what would flip me:

1. have the bonus bane damage more constant somehow, either by having the effects from the epic strike last longer or some hybrid
2. What if First Blood procs an assassinate? That would be crazy, maybe OP, perhaps with a 1s internal cooldown
3. The epic moment seems organized for trash whereas what we need is red named beater epic moment. I want something that procs temp hp based on sneak die for example like Unyielding Sentinel has for its basic epic strike
4. I want something that lets me sneak past reapers in the tree too. DEVS THIS WILL NOT BREAK YOUR GAME, YOU ARE SAFE

[Synthetic]

Currently, investing to T5 in this tree is lucrative only for a Fey sorc or maybe a deep gnome/gnome wizzy that is pushing arcane alacrity to max. And it is silly that the best DPS rogue builds are in Divine Crusader. I would propose creating a new martial ED altogether at this point. The niche weird casters do well with this tree. Make a tree like the old SD and maybe add some melee DPS flavor to compete with DC even if not a rogue type.

Do you have DPS numbers for the build?

The 41d6 damage from SD epic strike would seem to still be better than the 10% increase from DC. I thought the Carpone build was more a utility build - debuff, buff, CC - than a pure DPS, and probably why he didn't include a DPS comparison.

[Saekee]

Do you have DPS numbers for the build?

The 41d6 damage from SD epic strike would seem to still be better than the 10% increase from DC. I thought the Carpone build was more a utility build - debuff, buff, CC - than a pure DPS, and probably why he didn't include a DPS comparison.

Law of the Divine does 10d6 damage always (scaling 200% with melee power) and adds one stack of vulnerable and armor destruction per hit with a small cooldown. So I would factor that in along with the 10% boost from Crusade

The update tomorrow will ‘de-couple’ some of the upper tier epic strike features of SD but I feel that doesn’t address any of our concerns.

[DYWYPI]

I'd still like to have the ability to tumble through enemies with 'Shadowform' as used to be the case with 'Shadow Form'. It's ridiculous it doesn't still allow that. You can; float over bear traps, you are meant be incorporeal, but still cannot pass through enemies. Some logic error with Shadowform design seems to have occurred in that respect. :-/

The Dimension Door casting change made sense albeit it wasn't a major issue, it's a niche time saver. I wasn't particularly interested regarding decoupling.

[Ulfo]

I'd still like to have the ability to tumble through enemies with 'Shadowform' as used to be the case with 'Shadow Form'. It's ridiculous it doesn't still allow that. You can; float over bear traps, you are meant be incorporeal, but still cannot pass through enemies. Some logic error with Shadowform design seems to have occurred in that respect. :-/

Here no errors at all: you only partially incorporeal, not fully, 25% (50% when Epic Moment active). It's enough to hit incorporeal mobs, but clearly not enough to pass through corporeal body/wall/whatever. Pure logic, you know...

[DYWYPI]

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. So there'd be no problem whatsoever slipping around a mob (temporarily passing through) while being shadowlike. The percentage is to ignore damage from a corporeal source; not really as to whether you are incorporeal or not.

An incorporeal creature can occupy the same space as a corporeal creature, unless the corporeal creature is entirely surrounded by a force effect. An incorporeal creature entering a corporeal creature's space (or vice versa) provokes attacks of opportunity as normal for moving into another creature's space. My request was both logical and reasonable.

If you had invested in Depths of Darkness, its incorporeal aspect could have easily carried through to Greater Shadowform. I don't think it'd be absolutely necessary to be incorporeal either - to tumble through - as water flows. Nothing is softer or more flexible than water, yet nothing can resist it. If anything the; no longer triggering pressure plate or bear traps, should not have been added in the first place.

[VinoeWhines]

Here no errors at all: you only partially incorporeal, not fully, 25% (50% when Epic Moment active). It's enough to hit incorporeal mobs, but clearly not enough to pass through corporeal body/wall/whatever. Pure logic, you know...

Pure logic would of been to leave Shadow Dancer pass through enemies on Tumble unchanged, they kept it in Grand Master of Flowers, they also kept Everything Is Nothing.
The Game Logic was already in place, so it logically makes sense to keep something that wasn't Over Powerful(OP), the way it was before. Pass through enemies on Tumble. To take it out, for no reason absolutely at all, that makes any sense, happened to this Tree. Had I known having a room mate move into our Tree would of caused so much problems and blatant removal of valuable abilities*: We would of been more vocal in flat out no, don't do it.

*Consume.
*Shadow Manipulation.
*Executioner's Strike/Shot.
*Meld Into Darkness (as separate ability from attack).
*Removing the AOE explosion in Dark Imbuement proc.
*Removing Pass through enemies on Tumble.

Putting Stealthy and Assassinate bonus' separate when they where part of the same bonus.
Putting in a useless Wand and Scroll Mastery that doesn't stack.
Removing Stat bonus' but putting them in other Trees only.

Other Trees got:
Cut the Strings(1 minute cooldown).
Mass Frog(1 minute cooldown).
Beguile Charm(Shadow Dancer's Shadow Manipulation).
Weird(AOE Phantasmal Killer....oh wait that's our Tree but oh wait, we can't pick it and are locked out of it as a Tier V in our own Tree! Seems like a Consume alternate.. oh but wait, that was removed...)

We get an Epic Moment that puts you in line of danger of being killed for it to proc, with a non stacking 50% Incorporeal(it should stack with our 25% that we already invested in plus outside sources. Weird is a safer more efficient PK and you don't have to wait to get swung at for it to go off, it just does....wow! And it's in our Tree! and we can't pick it! Or Consume, Shadow Manipulation, Executioner Strike/Shot)
Viva unstacking Wand and Scroll Mastery.

Again no pass through enemies on Tumble.....

[DYWYPI]

Reworking "From the Shadows" would make sense as it's basically neither use nor ornament (at least for an assassin) it seems only half-completed. It should have allowed controlled movement or you to pass through enemies. You don't have to a genius to realise the current iteration (movement aspect) of that ability isn't great.

I'm not asking for any type of damage or speed boost; it's for diversity and tactical movement purposes, e.g. stealth related functions. For example when things "go south" with monsters hemming you in (or lag) and your screen is choked full of mobs and you cannot see anything other; it allows an escape or re-positioning route. She primarily uses dual daggers, not a sweeping quarterstaff.

We enjoy diversity and tactics and aren't just blindly focused on power and damaging mobs or one button bashing. The U51 Shadowdancer is still mostly ignorant to these other alternative methods such as positioning fluid micro movements and fine control. That's what several people are still trying to explain, i.e. they are also interested in using the; environment itself, alternative approaches, and not mindless slaughter.

Whereas in contrast Team SSG seem to be on a completely different page; they come across as at best indifferent towards the importance of such stealth-play movement. We're talking sneaky tactical positioning for combat, and movement aspects: not damage numbers. I don't believe the DDO Developers involved were incapable of understanding such simple movement concepts, nonetheless those shortcomings still occurred. It's clear that their negotiation skills are still lacking and could be improved. :-)

[VinoeWhines]

Reworking "From the Shadows" would make sense as it's basically neither use nor ornament (at least for an assassin) it seems only half-completed. It should have allowed controlled movement or you to pass through enemies. You don't have to a genius to realise the current iteration (movement aspect) of that ability isn't great.

I'm not asking for any type of damage or speed boost; it's for diversity and tactical movement purposes, e.g. stealth related functions. For example when things "go south" with monsters hemming you in (or lag) and your screen is choked full of mobs and you cannot see anything other; it allows an escape or re-positioning route. She primarily uses dual daggers, not a sweeping quarterstaff.

We enjoy diversity and tactics and aren't just blindly focused on power and damaging mobs or one button bashing. The U51 Shadowdancer is still mostly ignorant to these other alternative methods such as positioning fluid micro movements and fine control. That's what several people are still trying to explain, i.e. they are also interested in using the; environment itself, alternative approaches, and not mindless slaughter.

Whereas in contrast Team SSG seem to be on a completely different page; they come across as at best indifferent towards the importance of such stealth-play movement. We're talking sneaky tactical positioning for combat, and movement aspects: not damage numbers. I don't believe the DDO Developers involved were incapable of understanding such simple movement concepts, nonetheless those shortcomings still occurred. It's clear that their negotiation skills are still lacking and could be improved. :-)

You were right in that you cannot pass through mobs, for some reason I would jump up and at the same time use From the Shadows, so it would seem that the smoke passing through mobs was myself as well, but I did test it and you just hit them like a wall.

The way to overcome the -20 Jump though is to use a Jump buff clicky(Morah's Belt) or Jump scroll buff and that takes care of the negative penalty to Jump on sneak score, to get it to 40+.

I think From the Shadows should have it pass through mobs and cause a AOE Sap or Assassinate Cleave attack, since they took away our Double Strike and Offhand Double strike attempt to get a 3 or 4 mob kill Assassinate from the past.

It should be a Consumed by Shadows alternative to Weird on the same cool down 1 minute and cause the ability to do a Cleave Assassinate and on Red names/Bosses cause the Shadow Loss debuff( but Armor Class = 0 should be for it to be for at least 20 seconds and cause the Darkness debuff). Darkness: The target is no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -5 Spell Resistance, -5 Physical Resistance Rating and -5 Magical Resistance Rating per stack. Lasts 15 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 10 stacks. )

(Bring Darkness) enhancement should be the. Pass through targets on Tumble, blinding them for 5 seconds causing an Improve Feint/Bluff effect, no save as well as the Meld and Dark Imbuement buffs (you should be able to have both, like how it was before, not hard code, brick wall it to one or the other, that's not even close to making any sense.)

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Just move the caster things from Shadow Dancer to Magus Tree and have them multi-select their caster choices.

Believe me, I was looking forward to having a Rogue be able to use Force damage and Illusion CC abilities, that caused Sneak Attack and Shadowy Casting abilities, but the Bill of Goods we were promised and the End Results were a major Bait and Switch of what we had before that was allot better in it's presentation and abilities.

Float over traps is interesting if the Traps would do the proper damage to mobs to take them out or heavily soften them up, but it's just gimmicky for now.

Instead of Wand and Scroll Mastery it should be Traps and Vile Mastery.

Sleight of Hand should be:

Sleight of Hand: Traps and Vial Mastery: You can make Noisemaker Traps or Noisemaker Vials(on exploding they stick to door/wall and make ticking sound), with the ability to place or throw in stealth.

(Tier 1): If you have the Trapmaking Feat, you can now add your Sneak Attack Dice and Damage to Traps and Vials.
(Tier 2): You can use the higher of Melee or Range Power to Traps and Vials you Throw.
(Tier 3):You can inscribe scrolls as Traps and Alchemical Recipes as Vials.

Maybe have specific Alchemical Vials like Mass Suggestion/Confusion, Turn to Frog/Bat, a real Tanglefoot a la "Sharn exploding goo"(with DC: Reflex (DC 20 + Rogue Level + Stat Modifier + Assassinate Bonus)
and Shadow-Thunderstone: Alchemical Vial Trap Attack: 1d6+2 Force damage per character level and dazes in an area. Fort DC (12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Stat Modifier + Assassinate Bonus).

[VinoeWhines]

For those Rogues who care to chime in on this topic. I brought it up to the forum in Suggestions and Ideas section.
A dying playstyle with a few left in it.



https://forums.ddo.com/forums/showth...r-Epic-Destiny