U53 Ranged Showdown: Damage Calculations for 17 Builds

[Tilomere]

I'm not sure I added all the sources properly, but should be close. Debuff multipliers from value of a single well-built bard.

Nerfed magma damage 75%, and also removed all the vs. FE calculations for simplicity.

[Ulfo]

Essence of Constellation, Broken and Reforged instead Deconstructor?

Perfected Jidz-Tet'ka for any shuri build? +5 Insight bonus to SA dice and damage hard to ignore, no (of course, if bug not provide +5 dice is fixed)?

And as we discussed here, use double +2 DEX raids filigree suboptimal because it just reduce damage output.

[Carpone]

Essence of Constellation, Broken and Reforged instead Deconstructor?

It's an option if you want to drop a DR bypass from the build.

Perfected Jidz-Tet'ka for any shuri build? +5 Insight bonus to SA dice and damage hard to ignore, no (of course, if bug not provide +5 dice is fixed)?

It's not +5 dice. It's just +5 sneak attack. And trying to crowbar that in triggers gear tetris. So, sure, you can create a gearset with it, but it's going to lack something else because of other gear choices. It's much easier to compare a complete gearset vs. another gearset, than to just talk about one item.

And as we discussed here, use double +2 DEX raids filigree suboptimal because it just reduce damage output.

DEX is the best stat for shuriken until you have 100 DEX, as each 1 DEX equates to 2 doubleshot thanks to Advanced Ninja Training and Shuriken Expertise. I don't know how you conclude 4% dshot from a single filigree is suboptimal.

[Ulfo]

It's not +5 dice. It's just +5 sneak attack. And trying to crowbar that in triggers gear tetris. So, sure, you can create a gearset with it, but it's going to lack something else because of other gear choices. It's much easier to compare a complete gearset vs. another gearset, than to just talk about one item.

I not have this artifact myself so i just read wiki description, and in description it's +5 DICE. Of course if here no +5 dice it's not so appealing. Other hand, if it's not provide +5 dice because bug and not because wrong description, after bugfix it can be just BiS.

DEX is the best stat for shuriken until you have 100 DEX, as each 1 DEX equates to 2 doubleshot thanks to Advanced Ninja Training and Shuriken Expertise. I don't know how you conclude 4% dshot from a single filigree is suboptimal.

Ugh... sorry, you re-read link i provide above? I think we have consensus that after U49 and DS=RP for DM (damage multiplicator) use other filigree set provide better DM. 4% DS is 1.04 DM, while any rare filigree from listed under link set provide 5 RP - 1.05 DM. 1.04<1.05, no? Please, reread this link. Your +8 DEX provide 16% DS from 4 filigree, it's 1.16 DM, and it's more than twice worse if you change it to double raid Manti + 2 rare Manti RP - 1.4 DM from same 4 filigree slot.

[Carpone]

I not have this artifact myself so i just read wiki description, and in description it's +5 DICE.

The wiki is wrong, and has been wrong about this item since it was revealed.

Ugh... sorry, you re-read link i provide above? I think we have consensus that after U49 and DS=RP for DM (damage multiplicator)

1 doubleshot is not equal to 1 ranged power. Doubleshot affects procs, RP does not. Also, DEX affects your base damage as well as insightful deadly from the trance.

[Ulfo]

The wiki is wrong, and has been wrong about this item since it was revealed.

Well, mistakes happen, and wiki mistakes can be easily fixed. If you (or anyone other) can provide screenshot with correct bonuses, i do it personally... of course, after devs proved that live bonus is correct and not bugged and wiki really wrong. We all remember, how long some bugs persist, like Magewright provide +5 DC instead +3 according description, or, vv, how long Diversion not provide correct +5 to SA dice.

1 doubleshot is not equal to 1 ranged power.

It depends. 8)

For base damage and SA damage proc it's clearly egual, much better for non-scalable proc and equal or much worse for scalable proc.

Doubleshot affects procs, RP does not.

Clearly wrong. RP not affected only non-scalable proc, in your builds it's proc from double Reverberation filigree, 14d6 sonic, or 42 average per proc. 16% DS from 4 filigree slot provide 2.24 dpp bust to full damage. Any single 5% RP filigree provide much, much more boost to full damage, it's obviously.

Now, go to scalable proc, in your builds it proc from Harbinger of Chaos and from Shiradi destiny. Harbinger of Chaos scale with 100%RP, so change + 8 DEX in 4 slot to any combination from 4 random +5% RP filigree even without set bonuses provide 1.2 DM instead 1.16, 1.04 net gain. For Shiradi procs scaling with 200% RP, so difference twice better than for Harbinger of Chaos proc. If you change all your raids filigree to 4 Crackshot Negotiator, you lose 11% DS and +4 to base damage, but gain +25%RP boost to base damage and+50% boost to Shiradi proc! As i see, difference clearly better, no?

Also, DEX affects your base damage as well as insightful deadly from the trance.

Yea, exactly +6 for both. Your average base damage from builds i checked have 175-185, so +6 it's 1.6-3.4%%, or 2.5% average from base. Again, any single 5% RP filigree provide better damage boost, 4 - four time better even without possible set bonuses.

This is pure mathematics, what is there to argue about? As i say before, you just still in pre-U49 building paradigm, when double Raid DEX filigree really was no-brain choice for any thrower build. 8)

Notes:

1. In your builds, you have 3pc Slavers items with Might set bonus. Firstly, for base damage you put this +2 damage twice, as 3ps Artifact Slavers bonus and as Might bonus, so it's not +4 but +2 only; secondary, here no Slavers bonus at all, because this bonus overwrite with 3pc augments bonus, so all base damage for set with 3pc Slavers item need be corrected to -4.

2. Shattered Device 3pc meaningless because not provide debuff, simple change to Crackshot Negotiator provide +15% RP, or +1.12 DM net gain.

3. In this build seems you forget put one Manticore/Wreath [+4 RP] filigree into sentient jewel (present in RP calculation), and use Wreath of Flame: Ranged Power [+2 RP] instead secondary Manticore [+2RP] pure mistake because you lose +10 RP from 4pc set. Also you forget add secondary Crackshot Negotiator: Ranged Power [+2 RP] to RP calculation (present both in minor artifact and jewel).

Question:

You use Fire stance to gain additional 19-20 crit multiplicator. Air stance provide 4 DEX, it mean +8%DS, +3 to base damage and +15% stacking Throwing Alacrity. Are you sure Fire stance better anyway (i don't know)?

[SimCat]

Level Cap changes per Lammania add another feat: "Legendary Point Blank Shot: Toggle: With ranged weapons, you attack 10% slower but deal 15% more damage."

I'm not a math person, does this net an increase or decrease in overall DPS?

EDIT: Seems that I may need to try to make it a part of my rotation. Turn it on. Hunts End > Sniper Shot > Turn it on

[Maxxcore]

Hey! I've been leveling up the 6/13/1 ranger/rogue/monk build, and I noticed that the build never takes IPS. I was wondering if anyone could speak to the rational behind it? Is this build built only for endgame raids with the assumption there will be CC/aoe for trash?

Thanks!

[Ulfo]

I'm not a math person, does this net an increase or decrease in overall DPS?

+3.5% base damage net gain, if you have perfect timing and here no delay between toggle on/off. -10% damage from proc because lower proc rate.

[Caarb]

Hey! I've been leveling up the 6/13/1 ranger/rogue/monk build, and I noticed that the build never takes IPS. I was wondering if anyone could speak to the rational behind it? Is this build built only for endgame raids with the assumption there will be CC/aoe for trash?

Thanks!

IPS is a massive dps loss - only take it if you are mostly soloing

[Carpone]

Level Cap changes per Lammania add another feat: "Legendary Point Blank Shot: Toggle: With ranged weapons, you attack 10% slower but deal 15% more damage."

I'm not a math person, does this net an increase or decrease in overall DPS?

EDIT: Seems that I may need to try to make it a part of my rotation. Turn it on. Hunts End > Sniper Shot > Turn it on

You aren't going to be toggling this every time you do Hunt's End. It's an overall DPS increase. I have concerns that the reduced attack rate will make No Step Missed more difficult to recharge.

Hey! I've been leveling up the 6/13/1 ranger/rogue/monk build, and I noticed that the build never takes IPS. I was wondering if anyone could speak to the rational behind it? Is this build built only for endgame raids with the assumption there will be CC/aoe for trash?

I build for max DPS, not trash clearing. If you want IPS, then you'll have to play Sophie's Choice and drop a feat for it.

[Bjond]

Question:

You use Fire stance to gain additional 19-20 crit multiplicator. Air stance provide 4 DEX, it mean +8%DS, +3 to base damage and +15% stacking Throwing Alacrity. Are you sure Fire stance better anyway (i don't know)?

There are a couple misconceptions there. The alacrity from Wind (Air) Stance does not stack. It has the same stacking as a haste spell or haste items. So, that part of the stance is pretty much universally pointless to every character. It's typically only used by melee (v.rarely) for more doublestrike. It doesn't provide doubleshot.

If you have a unique gearing opportunity that can't get it's haste from spell or gear, wind stance would be a potential alternative. I don't know of one, since haste is so ubiquitous, but it could be possible.

Also, for throwers, rate-of-fire is hard-capped at 86/m. It's pretty easy to reach that cap: Whirling+Haste is enough to reach about 84~85/m, iirc. BAB=21+ on top of that does 86/m (from memory .. last tested it a while ago when U51 hit). I don't know if other ranged styles also cap @ 86/m or even if they cap. IIRC, INQ xbow NHB has no cap and will go beyond 86/m, but it can't reach 86/m without NHB.

The downside to Sun Stance is Ki regeneration. Last time I did a Shuriken Thrower, I had to spend 100% of my time in Ocean Stance for the extra passive Ki regeneration. Back then Sun's on-hit Ki did not work for Shuriken. If that's changed or if there is more passive Ki elsewhere via gear or trees, Sun becomes quite attractive (I'd likely still miss all that Dodge, though .. it's like a safety blanket ).

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BTW, thanks for sharing your work, Carpone. Very nice read!

[Carpone]

The 13/6/1 shuri build has 98 DEX, so air stance is only an effective 4% doubleshot with self-buffs. With a reaper hat enchant (plausible now that it's a crafting option), Primal Scream or bard buffs from a party member, you're at 100 DEX so air stance nets nothing.

If you're at 96 DEX or less fully buffed because you're missing gear/past lives/etc, then you should use air stance over fire stance. U55 makes it even easier to hit 100 DEX self-buffed with the +1 DEX @ level 32, +1 DEX from Tabaxi past lives, and +1 exceptional DEX (delta) available from weapon crafting. There may be more options to increase DEX, since we haven't seen augments, filigree, minor artifacts or raid loot yet.

The downside to Sun Stance is Ki regeneration. Last time I did a Shuriken Thrower, I had to spend 100% of my time in Ocean Stance for the extra passive Ki regeneration.

Once you have GMOF Inner Focus on a 2 min cooldown, your ki becomes much more manageable.

[Ulfo]

There are a couple misconceptions there. The alacrity from Wind (Air) Stance does not stack. It has the same stacking as a haste spell or haste items. So, that part of the stance is pretty much universally pointless to every character. It's typically only used by melee (v.rarely) for more doublestrike. It doesn't provide doubleshot.

Misconception, lol...

Pal, instead very interesting theorycrafting just go to live server and check your Throwing speed in charsheet =>+ => Ranged section while Ocean and after in Wind stance. Melee/Ranged Alacrity not changed if you have 30% Speed item, yea... but Throwing - surely, by exactly +15%. In my case - from 51% to 66%. I don't know WAI or not, but it's how it works in live.

Misconception... yea... of course... 8)

Also, for throwers, rate-of-fire is hard-capped at 86/m. It's pretty easy to reach that cap: Whirling+Haste is enough to reach about 84~85/m, iirc. BAB=21+ on top of that does 86/m (from memory .. last tested it a while ago when U51 hit). I don't know if other ranged styles also cap @ 86/m or even if they cap. IIRC, INQ xbow NHB has no cap and will go beyond 86/m, but it can't reach 86/m without NHB.

And it's exactly reason why i ask Carpone about stances choices.

The 13/6/1 shuri build has 98 DEX, so air stance is only an effective 4% doubleshot with self-buffs. With a reaper hat enchant (plausible now that it's a crafting option), Primal Scream or bard buffs from a party member, you're at 100 DEX so air stance nets nothing.

If you're at 96 DEX or less fully buffed because you're missing gear/past lives/etc, then you should use air stance over fire stance. U55 makes it even easier to hit 100 DEX self-buffed with the +1 DEX @ level 32, +1 DEX from Tabaxi past lives, and +1 exceptional DEX (delta) available from weapon crafting. There may be more options to increase DEX, since we haven't seen augments, filigree, minor artifacts or raid loot yet.

Tnx for clarification. 8)

[Oliphant]

Played the 14/6 Shuriken build for several months. Had a decent gear set, close to the advised but had to use Leroix Implant and was missing the quickblade augment set. Seemed pretty powerful, was in the top tier kill count most quests, was doing good boss damage. Switched back to 12/6/2 Bow. Tried out the Fatesinger build using Shadowstrike and it worked really well. I worked in Hunts End as well because pre-loading HE is so effective at dealing with trash mobs. 12/6/2 Fatesinger was pretty much outclassing most player other players while my slightly less tuned 16/4 Shuriken build had been merely in the top class with others doing focused dps. I'm trying out 12/6/2 Shiradi again but have not really tested out endgame content being a bit busy with real life lately.

Also, I've been doing Tabaxi and got 3x done and back to racial completionist. Been enjoying Tabaxi so my latest life is Tabaxi again, not Wood Elf. Tabaxi has been performing extremely well, seeming to have tons of damage options while providing some nice movement speed. It's not obvious to me that W. Elf with some edge over Tabaxi with attack bonus actually beats Tabaxi at dps at this point. Tabaxi has some attack and damage boosts, 2 sneak attack dice, the High Places buff, deflect arrows; it seems really good with ranged. Curious if anyone has calculated Tabaxi yet.

[Carpone]

Great feedback, thank you for sharing that!

Tabaxi vs Wood Elf: I haven't done the calcs because the delta is ephemeral. Dread mobs definitely have a higher AC. Is it high enough for the 6% to-hit from Wood Elf to make a difference? Too soon to tell. Tabaxi bow does have 3% less doubleshot compared to Wood Elf, since Tabaxi's 3% doubleshot only applies to throwers. For shuriken, Tabaxi is definitely the go-to race now. And it's so damned zippy.

Dodge Bypass is a part of the new meta. Whether or not the 3% from Wood Elf or 3% from Tabaxi is required for optimal damage is TBD. Likewise, Holy Strike is likely a must have destiny feat paired with Shiradi core 2. Max Dodge Bypass for ranged is currently 18% (5 Shiradi core 2 + 5 Holy Strike + 5 Legendary Aim + 3 racial).

13/6/1 repeater is also looking really good from Lam testing. Using the Primal Avatar mantle and dino crafted gear it achieved sub 10sec kobold kills.

With the 9 new destiny AP available, going Shiradi Core 4, Shadowdancer Core 4 (with T4 Bring Darkness), and T3 Dreadnought (for bows) or GMOF T3 (for shuri) is the optimal split. I haven't had time to test Fatesinger T5 builds on Lam.

[Spellcrafts]

Is there a link to them all ?

[Carpone]

Is there a link to them all ?

In the spreadsheet.

[Magdragons]

Im doing the 13/6/1 build with one monk, and was wondering what stance I should be using most of the time.

[Oliphant]

I've been playing the 12/6/2 Warlock Shiradi + FE variant for while.
I'm trying out a modified 13/6/1 Barb variation now.

Noticed a few things:

• Carpone stated dodge bypass is a new meta and holy strike is a must have with Shiradi Core 2.
• Been maintaining Consume for like a year on and off, getting a little tired of it and it seems to suck up quite a bit of the cycle due to it being slow. Consume works really well but I was up for trying something different and could see some opportunity to do some new things freeing up the 7 AP from Soul Eater.
• Tabax Tier 4 not needed, can get by with 16 points and still get all the SA dice and dodge bypass.
• Tabaxi + barb level is enough zip, no extra AP needed for more speed.
• Hard to fit in Holy Strike, Harbinger of Chaos, Watcher's Eye, Legendary Aim, not give up any dps feats.

So:

• Started as a 12/6/2lock.
• Had similar gear as the Carpone setup but using Celestial Insignia with Black Dragon Tasset, getting me the defense, armor piercing, and relentless fury, basically fine without having to use Slavers mats.
• Decided to incrementally adjust by adding in dodge bypass and cold iron from Rune Lodestone, losing the 8 quality MRR. Was able to swap Cold Iron feat to Holy Strike.
• Was working good but still had Silver feat going and no Harbinger of Chaos.
• Figured out if I switch to barb and give up the 7 AP for consume, switch to Tabaxi and only use 16 AP versus 19, skip using 3 points for extra rogue speed, shave off a few defense AP from Visitani, I free up 16 AP which is enough to put 3 into Assassin for more SA dice, and 13 into Arcane Archer for 6 Acid Arrow dice and Metalline.
• The Metalline lets me off the hook for Silver feat freeing me up to get Harbinger of Chaos.
• The AA investment seems worth it, 6 points for 6 acid dice, 3 points for 3 to hit, 4 points basically burnt to get Metalline, and gets me Harbinger of Chaos fit in.
• Arcane Empowerment augment for extra AA dice.
• Opens up neck slot for something else although for now I like getting 5% dodge bypass and staying with Rune Lodestone.
• Opens up weapon augment to swap out Deconstructor. I might put the Constellation named augment in there but I need a few more runes for it.
• For now missing tendon slice on the gear.
• Was getting 30% threat reduction from Soul Eat so now at 65% down from 95%, a noticeable difference if I get too feisty.
• Basically the play style is just pumping out as much raw dps as possible at the slight loss of crowd and aggro control. A question mark about to-hit but not seeing misses; glancing blow mechanic goes over my head.
• Seems good, though probably still weaker against bosses for lack of consume (but still nice to get a break from it).
• Was already doing really well against R10 quest trash but expect this configuration to be a vacuum cleaner, but not really tested yet.
• For bosses, I lost consume but gained 2 SA dice, 7 AA Acid dice and fit in the last of the endgame dps feats.