Can I make my Ranger tougher by adding 5 fighter levels?

[Grinkle_65]

I have a first life Ranger, 20 Ranger 1 Epic level that I had shelved for about 3 years now. I have been TR'ing a different toon in the meantime, now on its 6th life, Bladeforged, currently, also 20 Pal 1 Epic.

I dusted off the Ranger with the intent to get her to L30 and park her at a short quest to do some daily seed farming. I am now struck by how much squishier she is than my Paladin.

My first quests with her are KotB, and these quests are definitely not kiting friendly, so not really amenable to an effective bow Ranger play style. She does fine if there is room to roam and kite.

I can basically sleep-walk through KotB on Epic with my L21 Bladeforged Pal, and if I don't mind dying a few times and re-entering if I get too many Reapers, I can even do some of them on R1.

I can only complete them on Hard with the Ranger and then only if I am careful. I haven't finished any on Epic, I just get killed when the mobs come into melee range. The Ranger has no crowd control or multi-target clearing attacks and can't survive much melee.

So, my Ranger has her Lesser Reincarnate +5 stone in her bag still. I am thinking about multi-classing, but only if it will make her better able to stand toe-to-toe in quests that are too cramped for effective kiting.

Pal - 5 levels of Pal doesn't do much, LoH is gimped, and as soon as I get the Ranger to 23 she can take LoH that is not gimped anyway. Taking the Pal levels would let me get more LoH charges, though. That is the only advantage I could think of. The Pal heals at L5 are not as good as the Ranger heals at L15. So its sort of like taking 5 fighter levels but without the weapon feats.
Cleric - sort of same story as Pal, L15 Ranger still out-heals and I can't get the big Cleric feat without 6 levels of Cleric
Fighter - I think this would be the way to go, and I can get some more +'s for the bow to make up for what I lose with the 5 Ranger levels. I don't get the Ranger capstone. I lose some cool-down bow attacks, but I have so **** many of them right now that I can't use them all. I think + to dmg and hit serve me better than another 3 or 4 nuke buttons. I can use Heavy Armor.

My question is - should I bother? I can level her to 30 doing quests on Hard / Normal and just dealing with no toe-to-toe ability. I wonder if taking 5 fighter levels would really make her more survivable. If I still can only complete KotB at Hard, then I haven't really made a dent and will end up feeling like I should have kept a full Ranger with capstone.

[Stergan]

A thing you CAN do with fighter levels is take Defender enhancements and wear medium/heavy armor for +6 con and 20% Competence bonus to maximum hit points.

while this would make you more defensive, you would also loose evasion, the capstone, and level 18 core enhancements from ranger which are generally considered very desirable. If that choice sounds good to you then go for it, but id'e wager most would suggest you stay pure class, and invest in paralyzing arrows or falconry attacks for more crowd control to mitigate incoming damage.

[C-Dog]

I have a first life Ranger, 20 Ranger 1 Epic level ...
...
...
...bow Ranger play style...

Ah, ranged as opposed to Tempest - that's an important detail.

I am now struck by how much squishier she is than my Paladin.

That's a widely recognized general weakness with the class. One should not expect all classes to be the same by every metric, and Rangers are indeed "squishy" compared to other "fighter" (small "f") types.

...She does fine if there is room to roam and kite... The Ranger has no crowd control or multi-target clearing attacks and can't survive much melee.

Not using Improved Precise Shot? Lots of long halls in that one - no? It's a small loss in single-target DPS, so should be used situationally, but it's clearly the call for hallways.

If using IPS, change your key-binding so your "next target" goes to the farthest target, not the nearest one - that's the trick.

So, my Ranger has her Lesser Reincarnate +5 stone in her bag still. I am thinking about multi-classing, but only if it will make her better able to stand toe-to-toe in quests that are too cramped for effective kiting.

Again, ranged Rangers are not really the "toe to toe" type, at least not when compared to other classes. So "better able" is going to be a relative thing - don't hold your Pali as the benchmark, a Ranger will be hardpressed to ever reach that.

Fighter - I think this would be the way to go, and I can get some more +'s for the bow to make up for what I lose with the 5 Ranger levels...

If you've got decent gear for your combat stat, and have put your level-ups and a few AP into it, you shouldn't need those +'s.

Have you checked the combat log after a fight? Are you missing on a lot of "2's"?

I lose some cool-down bow attacks, but I have so **** many of them right now that I can't use them all.

Ikr? Another downside w/ Ranger - and just wait until Epics, even more buttons coming!

I think + to dmg and hit serve me better than another 3 or 4 nuke buttons. I can use Heavy Armor.

If that's all you want, 1-2 levels of Barb is the way to go. +10% run speed, med armor, and (w/ 2 levels) Blood Tribute - massive.

But once you put on that armor, you're losing Evasion on a Dex build - that's a big part of your survivability, no?

...I don't get the Ranger capstone...

This is where we get to it.

With any "X or Y" decision for a build, you have to balance what you're gaining by what you're giving up.

You didn't say which capstone you're losing, AA or DWS (nor if you have any of the Premium trees - any Falconry or Horizon Walker??). Anyway, both Ranger capstones are nice, but I'd say DWS is more critical if you've invested heavily into Sneak Attack.

But balancing AP's is a first check, so I'd first compare your AP's vs. something along the lines of one of these, and see if there's a big diff...
o A classic https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5793839 (without the Rogue part)
o DPS https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5745317
o Paralyzing https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6131982

But if you're not getting a Core 6 from another class, you don't want to lose both capstone and your Core 18 - in AA that's critical damage, in DWS that's losing too much SA damage. If you're going to take a deep dive into multi's, rather than just a 1-2 level "dip", you'd want something along these lines:

o deep multi-"Rangers"

My question is - should I bother?... If I still can only complete KotB at Hard, then I haven't really made a dent and will end up feeling like I should have kept a full Ranger with capstone.

Most(?) players agree that, if you're going to 30, pure is the way to go. Dipping is best if you're only going to 20, since (by definition) you don't enjoy Capstone until 20, nor Core 18 until end-game, and then you TR. So dipping is def worth it for "faster leveling" until TR'ing, even if you lose a little for those last few quests.

Barb 1 is best early, but still helps with run speed at end game. (And once you don't have capstone, any 2nd class is fine to grab for the 18/X/Y split - some builds use Pali, Rogue, Fighter, even Cleric or Wiz - or double up on Fighter or Barb. Premium options are there too.)

If you're not making your Dex Evasion ST's, then it may seem like heavy armor is the way to go - but I'd say "better gear" is the solution there.


And that's our next stop - how good is the gear on this toon? Weapon, armor, Dex/damage boost? You don't have to go out and farm a full set of ML 15 Masterminds of Sharn gear (which many use to 30!), but you should at least have 1) the Ravenloft bow (or equiv), 2) some named armor from either RL or Sharn, or something roughly equiv, and 3) one or two nice named trinkets to go along with that. What's your Dex? What damage/damage mitigation items do you have?

If it's all droploot and/or ML 8 named... there's your problem.

[Grinkle_65]

Thanks for the replies - I'll keep the Ranger and work on improved tactics.

"If using IPS, change your key-binding so your "next target" goes to the farthest target, not the nearest one - that's the trick."

Thanks! I'll give that a try.

Regarding build, right now I am using DWS capstone. I do have access to all of the enhancement trees. I have 33 AA, 45 DWS and 2 in Falconry for the extra favored enemy since that plays well with the DWS T5 favored enemy enhancement. I enjoy re-specing and really don't know what else I might spend plat on so any suggestions on trying out a different tree would be welcome! I will compare my specifics with the links you offered.


"And that's our next stop - how good is the gear on this toon? Weapon, armor, Dex/damage boost? You don't have to go out and farm a full set of ML 15 Masterminds of Sharn gear (which many use to 30!), but you should at least have 1) the Ravenloft bow (or equiv), 2) some named armor from either RL or Sharn, or something roughly equiv, and 3) one or two nice named trinkets to go along with that. What's your Dex? What damage/damage mitigation items do you have?

If it's all droploot and/or ML 8 named... there's your problem. "



I guess my gear is not awful, but not terrific. I have the Barovian bow, I swapped it out for the KotB bow. I also have a Silver Longbow, but it no longer seems to offer any crit range advantage according to my tooltip, and as I recall that was its claim to fame. I have some blue ML 15-20 items and some green ML 15-20 items. I have Cursebane Focus in the trinket slot. Not really sure why, maybe because its blue. Farming Sharn gear is a good idea - thanks for that suggestion.

My tooltip isn't very helpful, saying I have a ranged power bonus of zero, I don't think that is right. Also says doubleshot bounus of zero, which really can't be right as I have items and enhancements and feats giving some DS bonuses. I have 100% Fort from my helmet. AC 49, DR 10 slash/pierce, so not a lot of help in melee, but don't swing a stick at me!

Thanks again for taking the time to write that very helpful response.

My Dex is 43.

Oh, reviewing my feats I never took shot-on-the-run. I don't know why not. I went to Fred and I need to re-incarnate in order to swap. So maybe I'll use the stone to tune that up.

[Mindos]

My tooltip isn't very helpful, saying I have a ranged power bonus of zero, I don't think that is right. Also says doubleshot bounus of zero, which really can't be right as I have items and enhancements and feats giving some DS bonuses

https://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Defensive_Fighting

[Grinkle_65]

OMG. Thanks, Mindos. I totally gimped myself.

[unbongwah]

Oh, reviewing my feats I never took shot-on-the-run. I don't know why not.

Probably because for most of DDO's existence, SotR has been largely useless. +6 Ranged Power (and negating the -4 to-hit penalty from movement) for 3 feats is a pretty bad ROI IMO. For about a year, SotR provided "10% Alacrity bonus to Shortbows and Longbows" but that went away in the U49 revamp of archery.

Anyway you should check out Carpone's archery threads. Even if you don't follow one of his builds, still a lot you can learn about archer builds these days.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ide-to-Bow-DPS
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...age-comparison
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Life-Bow-Build

[C-Dog]

Oh, reviewing my feats I never took shot-on-the-run. I don't know why not. I went to Fred and I need to re-incarnate in order to swap. So maybe I'll use the stone to tune that up.

Yeah, what Un' said. SotR is like Toughness, in the sense that it's a "well, I've got the core feats, might as well" sort of feat. It helps ~some~, but there are pro'ly better things out there. (SotR chain is typically grabbed by ranged Ranger, Arti or Fighter builds that have extra feats and are trying to find anything that helps.)

[Alled78]

I wont. TR the ranger now

U should get 1 core 6 as u did.
Consider ranged build are strong at 30... So wait before any evaluation

Another important thing are epic destinies
Equipment
Feats..

As others said check Carpone thread about archery to improve yor build.