The Problems with Eldritch Knight w/ U57

[Duhboy]

Eldritch Knight as of this writing on live are currently on life support as is because of a variety of different issues. The biggest thing is EDF and how it reduced all spell casting to touch range with little compensation to their melee damage. Their elemental imbues offset this deficiency somewhat given the fact that their regular damage hits are below average at best and also IF the monsters weren't resistant, absorbing or down right immune to one or more imbues.

Then we have the Eldritch Knight stance itself. When you activate the stance you gain the following:
-While this is turned on, all your spells and SLAs that can be affected by Metamagics have their range reduced to touch range.
-You gain +30 Universal Spell Power and +3% Spell Critical Damage.
-Your Base Attack Bonus equals your Character Level. You gain +5 to hit with weapons and 3% Doublestrike.
-You gain +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Multiplier with Melee weapons, +3 Damage, and the Mobile Spellcasting feat, allowing you to cast while moving at faster speed.

-Knight's Controller: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain: +2 Enchantment DCs, +2 Illusion DCs, +4 Spell Penetration and +20 Melee Power.
OR
Knight's Striker: If you have Knight's Transformation active, you also gain: +2 Evocation and Conjuration DCs and +20 Melee power.

Then we have the HP bonuses. One good thing with EDF is that EK's could get the +25% HP bonus from it by taking the weapon combat styles.

Fast forward to U57 and Eldritch Knights are seemly worse off overall then they are currently on live. I didn't think this tree could get any worse. However I was wrong. I was .....so very wrong.

The problems are as follows:
With the removal of EDF the spell casting restrictions went away with it which is a welcomed change. HOWEVER in typical DDO's one step forward, 3 steps back fashion, they made a good move like this but then turn around and made terrible changes with it such as:
-Making the Eldritch Knight Imbues die no longer able to be upgraded to d10 and d12 as you go deeper into the cores.
-Tying the following now former passives to a 30 sec buff when you hit with the tier one core Eldritch Strike.
+30 universal spell power and +3% Critical Spell Damage.
+3 to Hit, Damage and 3% double strike.

And also depending on what you choose:
Knight's Striker: Knight's Strike gains +2 Evocation and Conjuration DCs and +20 melee power.
or
Knight's Controller: Knight's Strike gains +2 Enchantment DCs, +2 Illusion DCS, +4 Spell Penetration and +20 Melee Power.

My question to this is...WHY? Why tie these bonuses that were part of the transformation to begin with into a bad core 1 cleave? It's bad enough that EK's have to use this cleave multiple times in order to make use of the capstone but now we have to use the cleave even more in order to maintain what EK's had as a passive before for 30 secs. That's just terrible mechanic design. It's doesn't make the cleave any better, it just brings the tree down as a whole by having to rely on a weak core 1 ability in order to suck less.... for 30 seconds. >.>

Also with the impending update, they will get +15% HP bonus. Again I ask why? I understand that the devs are TRYING to help melees especially pure melees however with EK whether it's a wizard or sorcerer variant, they are still at the lowest of hit point die of a d6 (d4 originally) so they would need as much of a bonus to HP as they can get to compensate for having the lowest HP die and +15% is not it.


My suggestions to the devs for this tree is as follows:
-Do away with the mechanic tied between the capstone and the level 1 core because there is no need for it.
-Keep the bonuses tied to Eldritch Transformation no need or point in tying it into a core 1 cleave.
-Make the EK imbue die able to be upgraded per cores and/or add more bonuses to the transformation and cores to better help the melee aspect of this tree. Such as for example adding a +1[w] to your weapons aswell as adding +1 critical threat range while under EK transformation and add some melee power into the cores.
-Raise the HP bonus from +15% to atleast +20% (prefer +25%) to compensate for having a d6 hit die with or without some kind of restriction tied to it.
(Yes I am aware that non-EKs would probably take this as their tier 5 for the HP boost)

As for the future wizard and sorc archetypes, I think EK would make the most sense. That way the devs can tweak EK in terms of HP die, feats etc and replace the tree with something different for wizard and sorc.

[Lotoc]

Tying the former passives to landing eldritch strike makes sense honestly, I say this as someone who's favorite build is EK

The truth is if you remove the range restriction from Knight's Transformation, leave the bonuses as passives and also give EK the competence HP that isn't as much a buff to playing EK as it buffing Savant nukers.
T5 ek and 41 points (savant) would simply become the sorc meta because t5 EK is just outright stronger than t5 of any savant as most of the savant tree power is in the cores.

Now it would be just as effective to deter nuker EKs to make those buffs apply when you land a melee weapon hit which will help a lot with situations where eldritch strike misses.


Also a lot of your current assessment of the state of EK on live is simply wrong, sure they don't excel in r10s because they are melee but they are a top tier dps for raids. EK on live is fine.

[Duhboy]

Tying the former passives to landing eldritch strike makes sense honestly, I say this as someone who's favorite build is EK

The truth is if you remove the range restriction from Knight's Transformation, leave the bonuses as passives and also give EK the competence HP that isn't as much a buff to playing EK as it buffing Savant nukers.
T5 ek and 41 points (savant) would simply become the sorc meta because t5 EK is just outright stronger than t5 of any savant as most of the savant tree power is in the cores.

Now it would be just as effective to deter nuker EKs to make those buffs apply when you land a melee weapon hit which will help a lot with situations where eldritch strike misses.


Also a lot of your current assessment of the state of EK on live is simply wrong, sure they don't excel in r10s because they are melee but they are a top tier dps for raids. EK on live is fine.

I disagree. Mechanics that require you to use one ability in order to gain buffs to be relevant have always been a terrible concept from a mechanic point of view because if you miss with your strike equals to no buff. Turning something that was a tie in to a active EK stance into this type of mechanic isn't helping EK's either.

Perhaps coming to some sort of compromise such as keeping the melee portion of EK tied to the stance while having the caster side tied with Eldritch Cleave would be better if the devs are that deadset on using this mechanic. As for the HP%, I can see alot of casters deciding to take the tier 5 just for the HP boost regardless, however in doing so would lock you out of the sla in tier which I understand wouldn't be much of a lose for savants. But I'm sure once they get their passes that would probably change.

As for the current state of EK on live, I am not wrong whatsoever. They don't excel in r10 because they are simply "melee". The don't excel because their melee damage is too low compared to every other melee build out there. As for you saying they are top tier in raids whether outside of reaper or inside of reaper is laughable given how you have virtually every other class/ playstyle blowing EK out of the water in terms of DPS. Don't believe me? Go ask a alchemist how much damage they are doing. Or a barbarian. Or a ranger. Hell even ask a cleric. EK on live is a joke.

[Lotoc]

I disagree. Mechanics that require you to use one ability in order to gain buffs to be relevant have always been a terrible concept from a mechanic point of view because if you miss with your strike equals to no buff. Turning something that was a tie in to a active EK stance into this type of mechanic isn't helping EK's either.

Perhaps coming to some sort of compromise such as keeping the melee portion of EK tied to the stance while having the caster side tied with Eldritch Cleave would be better if the devs are that deadset on using this mechanic. As for the HP%, I can see alot of casters deciding to take the tier 5 just for the HP boost regardless, however in doing so would lock you out of the sla in tier which I understand wouldn't be much of a lose for savants. But I'm sure once they get their passes that would probably change.

As for the current state of EK on live, I am not wrong whatsoever. They don't excel in r10 because they are simply "melee". The don't excel because their melee damage is too low compared to every other melee build out there. As for you saying they are top tier in raids whether outside of reaper or inside of reaper is laughable given how you have virtually every other class/ playstyle blowing EK out of the water in terms of DPS. Don't believe me? Go ask a alchemist how much damage they are doing. Or a barbarian. Or a ranger. Hell even ask a cleric. EK on live is a joke.

That you think Alchemist and Cleric as nukers are even DPS is a joke.
Nuking isn't damage per second, damage per second is your consistent damage over time and the strength of EK is doing so much on hit damage that your dps isn't even reliant on crits.

[Duhboy]

That you think Alchemist and Cleric as nukers are even DPS is a joke.

Apparently you have never played an Alchemist or a caster-Cleric.

Nuking isn't damage per second, damage per second is your consistent damage over time

So nuking IS damage per second then lol.

and the strength of EK is doing so much on hit damage that your dps isn't even reliant on crits.

Eldritch Knights brute damage figures without doublestrike is abysmal at best, with it less so that's why the imbues are there to help compensate that.
However when you fight against something like a lich for example, most of your imbues are going to be either doing very reduced damage or none at all. Because liches are normally immune to lighting and cold, and resistance toward fire because of the cold shield that they cast.

But even in a perfect scenario where you face a creature that isn't resistant or immune or whatever EK's will still VERY low on the melee DPS totem pole that literally every other melee surpasses it imbues and all.

[xTethx]

Apparently you have never played an Alchemist or a caster-Cleric.


So nuking IS damage per second then lol.


Eldritch Knights brute damage figures without doublestrike is abysmal at best, with it less so that's why the imbues are there to help compensate that.
However when you fight against something like a lich for example, most of your imbues are going to be either doing very reduced damage or none at all. Because liches are normally immune to lighting and cold, and resistance toward fire because of the cold shield that they cast.

But even in a perfect scenario where you face a creature that isn't resistant or immune or whatever EK's will still VERY low on the melee DPS totem pole that literally every other melee surpasses it imbues and all.

Wow, just wow.

[Lotoc]

Duhboy, what exactly do you think is the highest single target dps build in the game?

[KoobTheProud]

Tying the passives to Eldritch Strike means that I'll actually use Eldritch Strike in my rotation. This is a downgrade in DPS potential however the passives are worth too much not to do it.

[M0rfeo]

This is my EK before update


This is my EK after update


13 HP is not a lot, but if the intent of the devs was to help the melee classes then with the EK it failed

[capsela]

Tying the passives to Eldritch Strike means that I'll actually use Eldritch Strike in my rotation. This is a downgrade in DPS potential however the passives are worth too much not to do it.

Makes EK more annoying to play and less fun to me. Problem is Eldritch Strike doesn't scale well, so nobody uses it endgame. Make it scale properly and we will use it and you wouldn't have to force us too.

It does like 300 damage on my endgame EK. Just annoys mobs.
Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack: Sheathe your weapon in eldritch energies, striking foes in front of you for +1[W] damage. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes. This additional Force damage is affected by your Force Spell Power. Cooldown: 12 Seconds

EK was already annoying because of all the clicking, now it's even more annoying. 9X5=45 spells I have to hotbar and click. Now you add this too. No, thank you. I told the Devs this when they were drafting EK. Wizards need passives or SLAs. Nothing else. And I was completely ignored.

[Lotoc]

Makes EK more annoying to play and less fun to me. Problem is Eldritch Strike doesn't scale well, so nobody uses it endgame. Make it scale properly and we will use it and you wouldn't have to force us too.

It does like 300 damage on my endgame EK. Just annoys mobs.
Eldritch Strike: Melee Cleave Attack: Sheathe your weapon in eldritch energies, striking foes in front of you for +1[W] damage. If this attack hits, your weapon also releases a blast of magical energy, dealing an additional 1 to 2 Force Damage per character level to all nearby foes. This additional Force damage is affected by your Force Spell Power. Cooldown: 12 Seconds

EK was already annoying because of all the clicking, now it's even more annoying. 9X5=45 spells I have to hotbar and click. Now you add this too. No, thank you. I told the Devs this when they were drafting EK. Wizards need passives or SLAs. Nothing else. And I was completely ignored.

Except you were using eldritch strike to get your capstone core going and it was too much of a dps gain not to use?
Do people just make stuff up or are they wrong on purpose just so they can complain?

[droid327]

Yeah ek is a melee class. At some point it has to require you to actually be in melee. If that isn't by reducing you to touch range, then it's gotta be by making you actually hit something in melee first.

It sounds like your complaint is more that cleave itself is kinda under powered, not that you have to use a clicky attack at all. Several other melee builds feature major buffs with short duration on melee hit, eg double strike in vkf or thief acro, or tempest DoD, etc.

But keep in mind it's also a core 1 so it can't be too powerful on its own either or everyone will splash /1 wiz for that and 10% AC. Maybe when you pick up the T5 cleave it could change the C1 cleave to use the new WWA animation and hit twice in a 360, that'd make it more of a rotation skill

As for die steps vs extra die, I think they tuned it so most builds come out even or ahead in terms of average damage per hit, except with scion damage

[Duhboy]

Except you were using eldritch strike to get your capstone core going and it was too much of a dps gain not to use?
Do people just make stuff up or are they wrong on purpose just so they can complain?

Capsela's point about EK's Eldritch Strike not scaling well is valid especially in endgame/ high reaper content. One of my points was the mechanic in general behind it. Using an attack ability ie Eldritch Strike to gain a small brief buff in order to be a little more relevant in that time frame especially when it was a passive before upon activating transformation let alone using the ability in order to use the capstone was a stupid and needless mechanic entirely. EK doesn't need this mechanic tied to their abilities especially the capstone since every other class that use a activation type of capstone was simply a clickie activation without the need of a mechanic that EK has to theirs.

I do agree with droid327 that you can't make Eldritch Strike too powerful because it's a core one ability. Perhaps moving it up to maybe tier two would give it the opportunity to be stronger or have it to when you pick up the tier five cleave it empowers the core one version somehow.

Duhboy, what exactly do you think is the highest single target dps build in the game?

It's definitely not an Eldritch Knight.

[Monkey_Archer]

Sorry, no.

Virtually all EK builds were buffed by this change, just not as much as some other melee builds.

Being able to cast from range is huge, and the small drawback of a few hp and having to cleave every 12 seconds is well worth that alone.

Even if you play as melee only EK is still a top tier dps build, it just might require a slight gear change to fit in extra dice.

[Duhboy]

Sorry, no.

Virtually all EK builds were buffed by this change, just not as much as some other melee builds.

Being able to cast from range is huge, and the small drawback of a few hp and having to cleave every 12 seconds is well worth that alone.

This is laughable. The only buff that EK got was the removal to casting range limitation. Having a buff that's a passive while having the stance active turned into a brief buff from using a terrible cleave in order to suck less all the while losing -10% of your HP is not a buff it's a nerf.

Even if you play as melee only EK is still a top tier dps build, it just might require a slight gear change to fit in extra dice.

This is also laughable. EK was never a top tier DPS build whatsoever especially if you played it as strictly melee compared to literally every other melee class and it's even more evident now with these changes.

[Cordovan]

Closing at the request of the OP.