Why are Heroic Reincarnations so punitive?

[Dazednconfused]

I have a few past lives, and so it is 3X the XP to gain a level. Not only that, but tokens of the twelve are not as easy to attain as heart seeds. The end effect is that heroic reincarnations are not really worth the time. I can get an epic reincarnation in half the time, it is not difficult to get two epic levels in a day. In contrast, running quests at higher levels, and in elite and even reaper, it takes almost 20 quests to gain a heroic level. I would like to spend more time in heroic levels, it's just so grindy. There is a very easy fix, just take away the 3X experience penalty, and make it normal XP, and allow us to use our seeds to buy heroic reincarnations. This would especially benefit new players, trying to catch up on past lives.

Ultimately, as things stand, the system has boxed off half of the game. With a few easy fixes, as recommended, there is an incentive to run lower level content.

(Just sayin: If I run 22 Zawabi's revenge in Epic at normal under level 25, I get get about a full bar of XP, if I run the 12 version at level 10 on standard with a first time xp bonus, i get about 1/4 of a bar of xp. They should be the same equivalent reward.)

At any rate, I feel like I am arguing with Al Bundy, because you all want to walk a mile to school uphill in the snow. So I have a counter-proposal. How about we just remove the seeds and commendations, and henceforth all reincarnations will require Tokens of the twelve, and furthermore, after 2 epic or iconic reincarnations, all epic levels will require 3X the xp. Fair is Fair

[SoulDustar]

I have a few past lives, and so it is 3X the XP to gain a level. Not only that, but tokens of the twelve are not as easy to attain as heart seeds. The end effect is that heroic reincarnations are not really worth the time. I can get an epic reincarnation in half the time, it is not difficult to get two epic levels in a day. In contrast, running quests at higher levels, and in elite and even reaper, it takes almost 20 quests to gain a heroic level. I would like to spend more time in heroic levels, it's just so grindy. There is a very easy fix, just take away the 3X experience penalty, and make it normal XP, and allow us to use our seeds to buy heroic reincarnations. This would especially benefit new players, trying to catch up on past lives.

Ultimately, as things stand, the system has boxed off half of the game. With a few easy fixes, as recommended, there is an incentive to run lower level content.

(Just sayin: If I run 22 Zawabi's revenge in Epic at normal under level 25, I get get about a full bar of XP, if I run the 12 version at level 10 on standard with a first time xp bonus, i get about 1/4 of a bar of xp. They should be the same equivalent reward.)

Sorry heroic first life is 1.9 mil exp second is 2.85 mil third is 3.8 mil exp that is double not triple exp needed per life

Tokens of the twelve are easily farmed mixing in some iconic lives to bank up some tokens is never a bad thing as well

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-of-the-Twelve

If you want to earn more exp in heroics run the quests that pay the best and or can be completed with less effort

The shortest distance to your goal is a straight line not a zig zag pattern

Seeds are way to easy to obtain to be used as heroic heart currency

An epic past life is 8.25 mil I wonder why epics pay more exp per quest perhaps raising heroic exp requirements would get a heroic exp boost to each quest exp award

[Dazednconfused]

Sorry heroic first life is 1.9 mil exp second is 2.85 mil third is 3.8 mil exp that is double not triple exp needed per life

Tokens of the twelve are easily farmed mixing in some iconic lives to bank up some tokens is never a bad thing as well

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-of-the-Twelve

If you want to earn more exp in heroics run the quests that pay the best and or can be completed with less effort

The shortest distance to your goal is a straight line not a zig zag pattern

Seeds are way to easy to obtain to be used as heroic heart currency

An epic past life is 8.25 mil I wonder why epics pay more exp per quest perhaps raising heroic exp requirements would get a heroic exp boost to each quest exp award

Thats about the response I expected on the forums. Your argument is that seeds are way to easy to obtain to be used for heroic currency? Why? Is the intent of the game to make more difficult to obtain heroic xp than to play endgame content? Mission accomplished. If people can get free epic reincarnations, then obviously we should make them pay for heroic reincarnations. Whatever, I just won't do any more heroic content. It's like being paid low wages to do the same job. I believe in capitalism. I like greater rewards for less work. I just don't see how the current heroic system is a viable product

[Halciet]

Seeing your date I presume you remember a time when it was 4,378,500 to cap, when bravery bonus did not exist, when xp tomes did not exist, when 50% potions did not exist, when you needed to get an item to unlock the next set of levels, when quest xp ransack did not go away, when sagas did not exist, when buddy boosts did not exist, when daily dice rolls were not a thing, when there were far fewer quests in the game.

Somehow we managed. The "struggle" to 20 that once was is so miniscule now.

The Tokens / Seeds, however; it is strange for a player to be able to level to 30 without ever having received a single token for TR unless they run quests from the correct list that actually drop any. I am not certain how to correct this issue as it is very easy to get tokens, but for a new player the struggle is knowing where to even get them.

[Dazednconfused]

Seeing your date I presume you remember a time when it was 4,378,500 to cap, when bravery bonus did not exist, when xp tomes did not exist, when 50% potions did not exist, when you needed to get an item to unlock the next set of levels, when quest xp ransack did not go away, when sagas did not exist, when buddy boosts did not exist, when daily dice rolls were not a thing, when there were far fewer quests in the game.

Somehow we managed. The "struggle" to 20 that once was is so miniscule now.

The Tokens / Seeds, however; it is strange for a player to be able to level to 30 without ever having received a single token for TR unless they run quests from the correct list that actually drop any. I am not certain how to correct this issue as it is very easy to get tokens, but for a new player the struggle is knowing where to even get them.

Now you are seeing the point. They made the heroic reincarnation system a long time ago, before they put in the epic system. It was made in an era where everything took longer so they wouldn't have to make more content. Now they have more content. So it is time to update the system, to make it the same reward level as epic content. By doing this, they would actually expand the overall content. The only reason to do heroic content is to obtain a racial reincarnation, you are better off to get a class reincarnation through iconic content, because you can use seeds, and you get two reincarnations for the effort.

[rabidfox]

Heroic leveling can be very fast with all of the quests available these days; way faster with more options than in the past. As for tokens, all of the quests that drop them got their mobs nerf'd as part of the ED rework (they don't have the old HP bloat anymore); so running EE/R1+ on them for full tokens is fairly easy now. One doesn't really have to go out of one's way to get 20 tokens while doing early epic leveling.

[SkyJ89]

tokens of the twelve are not as easy to attain as heart seeds.

Probably because Heroic reincarnation reset your favor and thus let u further get more DDO point.

[Dazednconfused]

Heroic leveling can be very fast with all of the quests available these days; way faster with more options than in the past. As for tokens, all of the quests that drop them got their mobs nerf'd as part of the ED rework (they don't have the old HP bloat anymore); so running EE/R1+ on them for full tokens is fairly easy now. One doesn't really have to go out of one's way to get 20 tokens while doing early epic leveling.

So you have to run epic levels to get heroic tokens. How does that make any sense at all? I can afford to buy a reincarnation if I want to, but I won't. It takes two reincarnations to go from epic to a racial reincarnation, I guess you could bypass the free epic, but why would you? Thats not the point, it's not worth my time. I have done a few full reincarnations, and it takes too long. In another month, I'll be on the road for a year and a half. I'm not going to waste anymore time on heroic content.

I play the game the way it has been incentivized. The current system rewards playing epic levels, and it literally punishes people for playing heroic levels. So please, instead of telling me that its faster to get heroic levels than it used to be, instead tell me why I should have to get 3X the XP on heroic?
Then tell me why I can't use my seeds on heroic reincarnations?

I'm not asking for anything. They went out of their way to design a system that discourages a particular playstyle. Thats not a good business model. I am just suggesting an easy way to fix it.

[Wizard1406]

If you have alts, tokens of the twelve are just as easy as heart seeds.... 3x ransacking a quick quest = 24 tokens.

Heart seeds need 21 quest runs. The advantage is that you don't have to run for seeds specifically, you get them as a byproduct of playing at cap.

You only get 20 tokens without farming specifically if you do most of the eberron quests during lvl up. Some don't give a full token and/or are bad xp so you'll probably skip them.

But you can get a good supply of them if you do Iconic lives as you'll only need heart seeds. I stay at cap for a few days, so I never came close to running out of seeds, even when doing multiple ETRs in a row.

[SoulDustar]

Thats about the response I expected on the forums. Your argument is that seeds are way to easy to obtain to be used for heroic currency? Why? Is the intent of the game to make more difficult to obtain heroic xp than to play endgame content? Mission accomplished. If people can get free epic reincarnations, then obviously we should make them pay for heroic reincarnations. Whatever, I just won't do any more heroic content. It's like being paid low wages to do the same job. I believe in capitalism. I like greater rewards for less work. I just don't see how the current heroic system is a viable product

Lol, I corrected your incorrect postings about heroic past lives costing triple the exp on a third life vs a first life. It's clearly double. That is a fact. The fact is you can do every type of reincarnation for free, that's right free, free, free,( just like the commerical ) the only thing required to do so is to put forth some effort and in most cases today that is little to none really with the last couple of updates.

Seeds are way to easy to obtain I have over 5k seeds not commendations that equals 500k in comms and yeah they are not easy to obtain I know I know ( having returned about 3 years now I guess ) of them that would allow me to obtain what 250 hearts I guess they could raise the cost to 42 seeds per heart but alas now I only have enough for 120 hearts. More than enough to complete every racial, and 6*3 class past life, since doing heroic class past lives is nothing but a waste of time and effort when you can double dip and iconic 9*3 for two past lives in one.

So in order to complete a well thought out triple past life character you need a token farming character ( just makes sense ) at level 30 less investment than ever since the ED changes no longer require you to open and fill each destiny up - first life does just fine for this nothing difficult in farming tokens in level 20-22 quests most of which can be easily soloed ( Devil Assault is a waste of time and effort overall ) even some of the raids with little to no effort on a level 30 character and as cap goes up it just gets easier and easier.

14 racial - 840 tokens

9 icoinic 9 class - 1134 heart seeds or 113400 commendations

6 classes - 360 tokens

At this point doing any more than 87 racial iconic class past lives combined is a waste of your resources I don't bother to count epic past lives since your going to 30 why would anyone not take one of 51 epic past life is beyond reason.

Iconics allow you to gain a class and iconic past live and you need to run about 3 heroic levels of quests to cap a 3rd life character I wonder why people do that to avoid so much of that zig zag pattern. It's the straight line theory.

Unfortunately it's not a job and your not being compensated for your enjoyment of disappointment of playing DDO.

Every past life banked you should find it easier and easier to run through heroic content since it is a joke as it is, nothing in heroic is challenging save a few raids that most never run since they can be run at 30 and obtain the same items with less effort.

I'm not asking for anything. They went out of their way to design a system that discourages a particular playstyle. Thats not a good business model. I am just suggesting an easy way to fix it.

There is a very easy fix, just take away the 3X experience penalty, and make it normal XP, and allow us to use our seeds to buy heroic reincarnations. This would especially benefit new players, trying to catch up on past lives.

Your right your not asking for anything. Your asking for something to be changed that you have clearly misrepresented in your opening post. I guess asking for something is purely subjective from one's point of view.

You have been on the forums since 2006 I can't being to image how many tokens of the twelve, heart seeds and gobs and gobs of stuff I would be sitting on having the same kind of start date. I play 2 hours a day 3 days a week so don't bother telling me I am playing eight, ten, or twelve, hours a day six days a week in my parents basement, chugging red bull and flying on my wings.

New and Veteran players alike don't need any past lives Hardcore proves that check my sig hardcore season 5 max favor was 6971 that means all but at most 3 cap raids were not run and all challenges possible were completed with 6 stars. 460 quests out of 463 that give favor over 99% of all was content done on first life characters and no deaths. Tell me how a past life is going to make a new or bad player good. A past life will never make up for poor tactics, bad gear, bad build, and bad choices. The strange thing is give a bad player and a good player the same poorly geared, poorly built, bad choice build and the good player will make it through by game knowledge alone a bad player will just make excuses for their poor play.

[Dazednconfused]

If you have alts, tokens of the twelve are just as easy as heart seeds.... 3x ransacking a quick quest = 24 tokens.

Heart seeds need 21 quest runs. The advantage is that you don't have to run for seeds specifically, you get them as a byproduct of playing at cap.

You only get 20 tokens without farming specifically if you do most of the eberron quests during lvl up. Some don't give a full token and/or are bad xp so you'll probably skip them.

But you can get a good supply of them if you do Iconic lives as you'll only need heart seeds. I stay at cap for a few days, so I never came close to running out of seeds, even when doing multiple ETRs in a row.

You convinced me. For now on, we should get rid of commendation and heart seeds, and require tokens of the twelve for all reincarnations. I am certain this will be a popular change. While we are at it, lets require 3X the xp to obtain epic levels. That will give you more time to collect those tokens. We need game balance, so we need to punish everyone. Isn't that the usual gamer argument?

[mikarddo]

OP - please explain how you arrive at the "3x the xp". I am not seeing it and I dont find heroics punitive but I am very curious where you get the "3 times" from.

[rabidfox]

A new player (or returning player) isn't expected to be running elites/reapers where the big bonus XP per quest is, so having 1st/2nd lives require less XP goes along with the expectation of what level difficulty they'd be doing. The game isn't being punitive towards mutli-lifers, it's set to aid leveling for new players so they can ease into game with no gear or knowledge.

[Wizard1406]

You convinced me. For now on, we should get rid of commendation and heart seeds, and require tokens of the twelve for all reincarnations. I am certain this will be a popular change. While we are at it, lets require 3X the xp to obtain epic levels. That will give you more time to collect those tokens. We need game balance, so we need to punish everyone. Isn't that the usual gamer argument?

Maybe you misunderstood me, tokens of the twelve aren't that hard to get after the epic changes which make epic elite quests easier and faster.

BUT you do need to farm them, it's "easy" but still time consuming. Or you need to do your lvl 20+ leveling on quests that drop them. (and not all of them are fun or good xp)

I don't want to get rid of heart seeds at all, because you get them completely free, just by doing your regular lvl 30 stuff, rxp farming, saga, gear farming, even raiding.

[Dazednconfused]

Maybe you misunderstood me, tokens of the twelve aren't that hard to get after the epic changes which make epic elite quests easier and faster.

BUT you do need to farm them, it's "easy" but still time consuming. Or you need to do your lvl 20+ leveling on quests that drop them. (and not all of them are fun or good xp)

I don't want to get rid of heart seeds at all, because you get them completely free, just by doing your regular lvl 30 stuff, rxp farming, saga, gear farming, even raiding.

I understood you completely. As soon as I proposed making your life more difficult, you suddenly thought it was a bad idea

[Wizard1406]

I looked at it too much from my perspective only,

If you always TR right at 30, seeds are time consuming to get.

If you don't play a lot of eberron epics and don't have alts, tokens of the twelve are time consuming and even worse if you want to TR at 20 right away.


So, more choices would be cool !

If you could buy ANY heart for tokens, for people who play a lot of eberrons epics

Seeds for ANY heart, for people who play a lot at cap (any 20+ quests)

Some heroic currency for people who are not interested in epics and only want to do class pastlifes/ racial pastlifes

[Dazednconfused]

A new player (or returning player) isn't expected to be running elites/reapers where the big bonus XP per quest is, so having 1st/2nd lives require less XP goes along with the expectation of what level difficulty they'd be doing. The game isn't being punitive towards mutli-lifers, it's set to aid leveling for new players so they can ease into game with no gear or knowledge.

Yes, that is the official explanation, prior to introducing 36 racial past lives. Thats a lot of meaningless grinding. At 14th level, it takes me about 100k xp per bar. thats the same as it is on 20th level, except at 14 I just played elite Tomb on sands of mecth. On a first time play through, that was about 21k xp, on epic, I get 100k when I do the same quest, w/o the 1st time bonus, on regular, at 2 levels above the quest. why am I playing at a much higher difficulty, and getting 1/5 the xp?

[SlowDM]

This is my post again. 2mo. I’ll start my own post. Fact . New. Fantastic content. However not value for money.

Completely wrong. What is needed is the new packs to give higher XP. I like Saltmarsh but low heroic XP for such long quests , double the xp. Optionals really need an XP boost, seriously all that dev work for nobody to do them. Naza’s farm Jumps to mind let the dogs free ha ha. If you had an XP pot running, why for 300? XP!!! Also put some named items in optional chests, please. Easy and simple way to make the game more fun and less drudgery, high optional XP and named item in chest.
There are often far too many named items in end chests which makes players annoyed trying to get the 1 item they want. Such a missed opportunity esp with the new expansions. Expand the expansions again esp due to the cost of them.
I’m pretty sure PnP DMs put magic items in encounter chests ( or more likely used by monsters ) . Certainly not just in the big baddies chest.
That is something I’ve always thought of as strange “ why isn’t the boss using that magic item in the treasure chest”
My last 3 TRs , I’ve tried to change to the new heroic quests Borderlands and Saltmarsh , Feywild , but gave up . I’ll do the old and trusted harbour, waterworks and 3BC , level 7 in half the time. Now this is the real problem. New paid for content needs to up the ante. Simply inconceivable that XP is just an after thought. New paid for quests need to simply give higher XP than old quests. Goodness me why hasn’t anyone thought of that. A benefit of that would be far less complaints of how low value the new expansions are. Because for certain they are low value for money. Sharn, Feywild , Borderlands and Saltmarsh are all fantastic BUT not value for money because of such low heroic and somewhat epic XP.

[Halciet]

http://www.gamergeoff.com/spend-your...he-twelve-now/
https://www.engadget.com/2013-10-20-...t-changes.html

There was a time when everything WAS going to be Commendations of Valor for reincarnations. The playerbase said NO, very loudly.

Heart seeds did not exist until u20 patch 1 (December 2013) and they were essentially just a means to crunch down Commendations of Valor.
It was not until u22 patch 2 (Wednesday, July 16th, 2014.) that they started dropping 2 Heart Seeds per quest at cap.

[rabidfox]

At 14th level, it takes me about 100k xp per bar. thats the same as it is on 20th level, except at 14 I just played elite Tomb on sands of mecth. On a first time play through, that was about 21k xp, on epic, I get 100k when I do the same quest, w/o the 1st time bonus, on regular, at 2 levels above the quest. why am I playing at a much higher difficulty, and getting 1/5 the xp?

Epic reincarnations only take 10 levels to get; while heroic/racials take 20 levels to get.
It takes 800,000xp to earn 10 levels in heroics (after 3rd+ life), 3,800,000 to get 20 levels.
It takes 8,250,000xp to earn 10 levels in epics; we'll have to wait until the cap is fully advanced to 40 to see how much XP it takes to get 20 levels in epics/legendary.
Comparing the XP given between heroic and epic is going to come out wonky as a result, but they both level fast if one hits the high XP quests.