The 6th member of the group

[Tangoro]

I am back to the game after a 5 year break to play with a group of friends that have little or no experience with it, starting at level 1. The others are playing cleric, rogue, barbarian, paladin and wizard, so I think we have a balanced group even without me. I will be the 6th member of the group and I am thinking to play a jack of all trades that can do some buffing and crowd control, but also contribute trapping and healing if our regular trapper or healer is not around. Basically I hope to balance the group as best I can whether all 6 are playing or someone is missing, to the extent possible. Being able to do some damage and also survive is of course a plus, but I understand there will be many compromises. I don't mind the character being weak the first few levels, but it should be performing from level 5 or so.

It would be a 32 point build, I also have some skill and supreme stat tomes around from what was the standard 5+ years ago, and I got VIP and some shop money to buy any enhancement trees or races that are required. I am mostly thinking of heroic content on elite for now, reaper is a new thing for me that we will explore if we can do it.

Looking over all the changes to enhancement trees, races and classes, I am thinking of going for either cha or int based bard with a splash of rogue at least. I played a lot of dex based builds before and want to try something else now with all the new options available. If cha based probably splash one of the divine casters to get cha based battle trance. I am also thinking of swashbuckler and single weapon fighting style as I always played twf or thf before and would like to try something else.

So, something like
Bard: 12+ levels
Rogue: 2 levels
(cha based) Cleric or Favored Soul: 1+ levels
(int based) maybe fighter or some other class: 1+ levels

Open for any advice anyone may have, I love tinkering with builds and all the details, but particularly curious about:

1. If I go cha based, and int is my "second priority", will my trapping be "good enough"? Or the other way, if I go int based, will my "second priority" cha based DCs be "good enough" to reliably daze/stun/fascinate mobs? Or any other advice for making the cha vs int based decision?

2. Choice of race. Of course this depends on whether I go cha or int based. I looked at some cha based bard builds, but none seem to be playing Dragonborn, was wondering why. The breath weapon looks cool, but no idea if it is any good. Obvious good race choices for either int or cha based bard?

3. Choice of weapon. The list of swashbuckling weapons is an obvious limitation, but I will take improved critical probably and maybe other feats or enhancements that further limit what weapon(s) to use. What are the most relevant options here? I was thinking of maybe daggers and Vistani knife fighter synergies. But perhaps there are other good weapon choices that fits well with other things? Maybe I will not have APs for the Vistani tree and should just go for a more general approach?

4. Level splits for cha based or int based alternative. I liked 12 levels of bard for the warchanter core ability with temp HP. It will probably be max 17 levels of bard if I do 2 rogue and at least 1 cleric/favored soul. What are good or natural cut off points for bard between 12 and 17 vs the divine caster between 1 and 6? Alternatively for an int based variant, 16 bard and 2 fighter?

5. For cha or int based variants, besides the + stat to hit and damage and the battle trance, what other (mostly bard) enhancements are really good/key? From the descriptions alone I have difficulty calculating what is actually effective, and some also seem to maybe be bugged. Especially interested in what buffs and crowd control options are the most effective for group play.

6. Cleric or Favored Soul? If I go cha based, do I go for Cleric or Favored Soul splash? Is there any difference in their ability to complement the bards buffing/cc? I am leaning towards Favored Soul for more SP if nothing else.

Appreciate any input, and apologies for the somewhat open questions.

[Tangoro]

Oh, and one more thing.

7. When swashbuckling, buckler or nothing in the off hand?

[dredre9987]

You can always go alchemist with 1 rog. int based so traps shouldn't be an issue. That's if you don't mind a caster.

[mikarddo]

I believe the best answer would be Bard Spellsinger. Amazing buffs (heal song alone rocks so much in heroics), some healing, good CC, fine nuking makings for a force multiplier.

If you plan to go into epics going pure bard for the capstone is compelling but means no trapping backup.
Otherwise fit in 1 or 2 rogue levels for trapping or 1 artificer level for trapping + dog. The dog is excellent for pulling certain levers in the game and none of the others in the group have a pet and with a full group you cant just sacrifice a hireling either.

The posted group has plenty of melee so go caster bard imho. It is a very strong build atm. and greatly buffs the rest of the group.

[PedXing20]

I believe the best answer would be Bard Spellsinger. Amazing buffs (heal song alone rocks so much in heroics), some healing, good CC, fine nuking makings for a force multiplier.

If you plan to go into epics going pure bard for the capstone is compelling but means no trapping backup.
Otherwise fit in 1 or 2 rogue levels for trapping or 1 artificer level for trapping + dog. The dog is excellent for pulling certain levers in the game and none of the others in the group have a pet and with a full group you cant just sacrifice a hireling either.

The posted group has plenty of melee so go caster bard imho. It is a very strong build atm. and greatly buffs the rest of the group.

Well said

+1

[Enoach]

I would recommend the Bard Spellsinger 18/2 Bard/Rogue

or

an 14/4/2 Bard/Artificer/Rogue - Spell Singer
The Artificer is to add in a cheap lever puller, some low-level weapon buffs, low level mass cure, UMD boost and the Rune Arm. I have fun with this type of build even in epics as it is a jack-of-all trades. I do us a Great X-Bow.

[Tangoro]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Spellsinger seems an interesting alternative and I started reading up on that, I had not considered I could go pure caster without running out of SPs, but perhaps if the bard is mainly buffing with songs, the SP left for healing and doing CC and damage is enough? I also see the bard songs are completely reworked from when I played before, looks like a much simpler system to deal with, and maybe more powerful too.

Would I be ok without any melee or ranged weapon alternatives for damage, just spells? What would be my go to spell attack? Do I take metamagic feats then? I searched a bit but could not find any good example of a trapper/spellsinger build that is doing damage as caster and not using swashbuckler/melee.

I guess if going Spellsinger with 2 levels of rogue (trapping and evasion), I should be cha based? And my trapping will still be ok if I make int my second priority?

[mikarddo]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Spellsinger seems an interesting alternative and I started reading up on that, I had not considered I could go pure caster without running out of SPs, but perhaps if the bard is mainly buffing with songs, the SP left for healing and doing CC and damage is enough? I also see the bard songs are completely reworked from when I played before, looks like a much simpler system to deal with, and maybe more powerful too.

Would I be ok without any melee or ranged weapon alternatives for damage, just spells? What would be my go to spell attack? Do I take metamagic feats then? I searched a bit but could not find any good example of a trapper/spellsinger build that is doing damage as caster and not using swashbuckler/melee.

I guess if going Spellsinger with 2 levels of rogue (trapping and evasion), I should be cha based? And my trapping will still be ok if I make int my second priority?

No need for melee or ranged martial damage. Bard spells will do just fine for damage and early on you will likely even dominate dps in the group.

Sonic Blast SLA (get max, empower and quicken early), Shout SLA and later Horn of Thunder SLA. With SLAs using max, emp and quick you have cheap but great damage in particular during the lower heroic levels. Mix in a few spells.

[Tangoro]

I see, thanks!

I am still wondering whether to max int for trapping or max cha for DCs on spells and CC effects. I assume the best CC depends on cha based DCs. I realized that even if I go int based, I can use the int based trance to get better DCs. But maybe not good use of APs to go that deep into the Harper tree to get the int trance just for DCs (when playing a caster that does not need int to hit/dam).

[mikarddo]

I see, thanks!

I am still wondering whether to max int for trapping or max cha for DCs on spells and CC effects. I assume the best CC depends on cha based DCs. I realized that even if I go int based, I can use the int based trance to get better DCs. But maybe not good use of APs to go that deep into the Harper tree to get the int trance just for DCs (when playing a caster that does not need int to hit/dam).

I would go max cha with some con and int. Bards get a good deal of skill points per level so that should be fine and (swap in) gear does well to cover not having max int.

Make sure to get devotion gear etc to boost healing - having the heal song tick for more is worth ALOT.

[Melkinor]

Thank you so much for the feedback! Spellsinger seems an interesting alternative and I started reading up on that, I had not considered I could go pure caster without running out of SPs, but perhaps if the bard is mainly buffing with songs, the SP left for healing and doing CC and damage is enough? I also see the bard songs are completely reworked from when I played before, looks like a much simpler system to deal with, and maybe more powerful too.

Would I be ok without any melee or ranged weapon alternatives for damage, just spells? What would be my go to spell attack? Do I take metamagic feats then? I searched a bit but could not find any good example of a trapper/spellsinger build that is doing damage as caster and not using swashbuckler/melee.

I guess if going Spellsinger with 2 levels of rogue (trapping and evasion), I should be cha based? And my trapping will still be ok if I make int my second priority?

Also great about Spellsinger is the Tier 5 Spellsinger enhancement Spell Song Vigor restores spell points over time, You can get it at levle 12.

[wedge712]

I am back to the game after a 5 year break to play with a group of friends that have little or no experience with it, starting at level 1. The others are playing cleric, rogue, barbarian, paladin and wizard, so I think we have a balanced group even without me. I will be the 6th member of the group and I am thinking to play a jack of all trades that can do some buffing and crowd control, but also contribute trapping and healing if our regular trapper or healer is not around. Basically I hope to balance the group as best I can whether all 6 are playing or someone is missing, to the extent possible. Being able to do some damage and also survive is of course a plus, but I understand there will be many compromises. I don't mind the character being weak the first few levels, but it should be performing from level 5 or so.

It would be a 32 point build, I also have some skill and supreme stat tomes around from what was the standard 5+ years ago, and I got VIP and some shop money to buy any enhancement trees or races that are required. I am mostly thinking of heroic content on elite for now, reaper is a new thing for me that we will explore if we can do it.

Looking over all the changes to enhancement trees, races and classes, I am thinking of going for either cha or int based bard with a splash of rogue at least. I played a lot of dex based builds before and want to try something else now with all the new options available. If cha based probably splash one of the divine casters to get cha based battle trance. I am also thinking of swashbuckler and single weapon fighting style as I always played twf or thf before and would like to try something else.

So, something like
Bard: 12+ levels
Rogue: 2 levels
(cha based) Cleric or Favored Soul: 1+ levels
(int based) maybe fighter or some other class: 1+ levels

Open for any advice anyone may have, I love tinkering with builds and all the details, but particularly curious about:

1. If I go cha based, and int is my "second priority", will my trapping be "good enough"? Or the other way, if I go int based, will my "second priority" cha based DCs be "good enough" to reliably daze/stun/fascinate mobs? Or any other advice for making the cha vs int based decision?

2. Choice of race. Of course this depends on whether I go cha or int based. I looked at some cha based bard builds, but none seem to be playing Dragonborn, was wondering why. The breath weapon looks cool, but no idea if it is any good. Obvious good race choices for either int or cha based bard?

3. Choice of weapon. The list of swashbuckling weapons is an obvious limitation, but I will take improved critical probably and maybe other feats or enhancements that further limit what weapon(s) to use. What are the most relevant options here? I was thinking of maybe daggers and Vistani knife fighter synergies. But perhaps there are other good weapon choices that fits well with other things? Maybe I will not have APs for the Vistani tree and should just go for a more general approach?

4. Level splits for cha based or int based alternative. I liked 12 levels of bard for the warchanter core ability with temp HP. It will probably be max 17 levels of bard if I do 2 rogue and at least 1 cleric/favored soul. What are good or natural cut off points for bard between 12 and 17 vs the divine caster between 1 and 6? Alternatively for an int based variant, 16 bard and 2 fighter?

5. For cha or int based variants, besides the + stat to hit and damage and the battle trance, what other (mostly bard) enhancements are really good/key? From the descriptions alone I have difficulty calculating what is actually effective, and some also seem to maybe be bugged. Especially interested in what buffs and crowd control options are the most effective for group play.

6. Cleric or Favored Soul? If I go cha based, do I go for Cleric or Favored Soul splash? Is there any difference in their ability to complement the bards buffing/cc? I am leaning towards Favored Soul for more SP if nothing else.

Appreciate any input, and apologies for the somewhat open questions.

You can have a maximum of three classes when you multi-class.
I recommend 18 bard/2 rogue or artificer. You get pretty good sonic dps, nice aoe crowd control, heals and can trap too.
You want to be chr based so the crowd control sticks. 14 base int for the back up trapper is fine.
Full bard is stronger, but you lose trapping. The level 20 ultimates in the enhancement trees are very strong, your definitely giving up power to get trapping unless you go vistani.
I've been having a lot of fun with my multi-class vistani builds. All the versatility of multi-classing with the ultimate from vistani gives it good dps too.