New update - Smooth transition from heroic to epic is epic lie by DDO developers

[Oxarhamar]

Show notes for an unofficial podcast are not the official patch notes for the game. If you'd like to read the official patch notes, you can find them on ddo.com where they've always been

Yeah at the onset of the video you speak of that's what I want to see

I stand by my long standing opinion that any Dev video content (even unofficial) should be accompanied by a transcript posted on the forums. Using other channels is fine but not cross-posting the information causes these situations where players have to dig up the information and bring it here like from discord.

[Oxarhamar]

Not overlevel. I should say equal level.

Yeah if you are running elite 16 at 18 but it's possible to run 4 levels over on R until level 17 then in epics you start underlevel

[Enderoc]

In the book of Goblinus
Chapter 9
Verse 7
It plainly states
"Thou shalt not Newb, neither shall ye suffer a piker to live, but thou must bringeth upon him all aggro from several rooms, and laggeth him unto death once the mass holds runneth out... Amen"

The Great DM told us specifically...that we must not be newbs and search our packs dilligently for things that may help us

[Wizard1406]

Because that is not a smooth progression from running heroic where it's overlevel to switch to running underlevel

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

[Oxarhamar]

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

Thanks for adding that

[Chacka_DDO]

Ah ok now I understand, for example, if someone wants to maximize their favor and first time xp. Sure, making lvl 18/19 quests doable on reaper at 20+ still, would be a good change.

For me personally the quest base level doesn't matter much, if it gives good xp and is easy enough to do, I do it and go in underlevel. In heroics very often, doing chain quests in one go (and I think that the most difficult quest in a chain is often not the highest level quest, see Mad Tea Party, Just Business etc.)

For me, it is not only important to maximize my favor and reaper experience, for me it is also important to PLAY if possible all quests in DDO and I want to do that at least on reaper 1 if any possible.
Currently, you are forced to do that at level 19 and this means not only that you are not allowed to use your heroic level 20 capstone enhancement, you also have ZERO experience gain for your first epic level.
I was even ok with that problem by the way until we got the first hardcore season and there it was even forbidden to do such quests on elite with a level 20 character and then it started to get absurd (not going into details at this point).

Some other thoughts...

Notice that most of the level 17-19 quests (there are only one natural level 20 quests and two raids in DDO) were originally intended to be played by level 20 characters.
It was the design decision of the DDO developers to give level 20 characters EDs with the introduction of the first epic character levels in DDO (21-25) most likely with the reason that level 20 characters are allowed to play epic quests but the result cannot be to suddenly not allow level 20 characters to play level 16-19 quests in ANY difficulty.

The design goal should be to make it possible to play these quests with a level 20 character and NOT to make it easier to play them with a level 19 character (Lynnabel sounds like that).

And yet again, YES it is easier to play such quests than before the times we had EDs, even on reaper but it is NOT that easy that it should be forbidden to play them with a level 20+ character, even less because a level 20 character is per logic HEROIC!
I'm perfectly fine if the developers increase the difficulty for such quests if they think it is necessary or if they nerf the characters (for example suspend EDs if you enter a heroic quest) but the goal has to be that it is possible to play such quests with a level nominal quest level +4 character on ANY difficulty!
(It is also OK if they lower the character level to the nominal quest level +2 for the reaper difficulty in general but this is the logical limit)

I'm perfectly fine if quests get the best reward if you play them at the nominal level (the level you see in the adventure compendium) +2 because this is the effective quest level and THIS should be the level with the best reward because the quest should be designed and intended to be played by a character of that level.
This is a matter of logic, the same as a monster with a CR20 should be intended to be fought by a level 20 character because this is exactly what CR20 means (Challange Rating).

And this is also one reason why I say that DDO needs basically a fundamental balance overhaul but it would be way too much at this point to point out why and how I think the devs should do it.

[Enderoc]

The DM is a stone, I shall not want, he leadeth me in circles in dingy dungeons, and layeth me besides still burning fields of lava...lo though I wander through the valley looking for the stupid thing I must have missed, he shall bring no comfort but instead confuse me further in the overabundance of his hypnotic narrative in screen actors voice

DM he hates newbs and children
All the Children missing from his world
We have journeyed far and wide
The only Children are those that died
Keeping them undead in the hands of one lonely creepy girl

I mean she might be halfling being just outside Jorasco ...its just no one has the courage to ask we just assume and get the frack out of Cadillac. Living kids are freaky in a world without any...she can keep her book.

Between Delera and Duality she could be the flame incarnate but who is going to take that chance?
I mean if you think a spider queen is bad , fire is not always a good thing you know...possibly far worse than spiders...like way worse. Like engulf the world in flames worse...

So just stay away and keep singing our hymns to DM the Ever Neutral...so that he mayest not ever be swayed

[Cantor]

Well, here we go again with more baseless accusations about "lies" from the developers that are not based on any actual game reality. How do I know? Because I just did it; on hardcore, with a first-life character, no legacy gear, using a ML10 Barovian weapon, and basic destiny points. If my character was able to accomplish running L21 Eveningstar quests at L21 when I have no margin for error how can it be so onerous for your character who can die however many times you want?

Before getting frustrated and typing something out on the forums perhaps ask for some help first when choosing your EDs. There is a lot of power unlocked from L21 to 23. 23 for example, gives you second ED cores. Once you start to understand the ED system you'll better be able to make constructive commentary about it.

Maybe the way he went about posting was, hmmm, less than diplomatic, but the level 20 lock out is ready to go.

I just did the werewolf quest on HC and we were like man these have a lot of hp, but to see how many, lol.

[Jerevth]

While it is nice to have the option available, the work-around of setting up sagas prior to an ETR only underscores the problem with level 20-23+ (~25 with xp pots) just to get what many (some?) consider a viable epic build.

Slayer counts don't reset which slows things down significantly after the third ETR.
I think a fresh restart of slayers would help considerably though I can see some folks leaving a couple kills to trip the last XP reward in addition to the sagas- but that only works once.

[Oxarhamar]

While it is nice to have the option available, the work-around of setting up sagas prior to an ETR only underscores the problem with level 20-23+ (~25 with xp pots) just to get what many (some?) consider a viable epic build.

Slayer counts don't reset which slows things down significantly after the third ETR.
I think a fresh restart of slayers would help considerably though I can see some folks leaving a couple kills to trip the last XP reward in addition to the sagas- but that only works once.

Thank you

I have been saying this every time a player offers a workaround it only provides confirmation that the problem exists by thier own suggestions on how to aviod it

+1 (must spread around)

[SoulDustar]

No one said that the quests were impossible HCL is a different game where doing each quest for favor puts players in those quests

on regular servers thou rarely are they run because of the xp return to time investment & also the outdated lockout mechanism with enough xp in lower quests to bypass

They could use both a rebalance to come in line so monster hp goes from Heroics to Epics smoother & remove the lockout then players would be able to progress smoothly from Heroics to epic instead of jumping from lvl 16s to lvl 20s

The fact is you don't need to run anything past level 16 to cap 20 at this point I guess if you want to re balance maybe the xp should be reduced in heroics to make those quests needed vs ignored by the masses.

The fact that level 18-19 quests in heroics are way harder than they should be is well known among players which is why the vast majority of players avoid them like the plague when leveling in heroics.

If you read the post I replied to you will see the opinion that these quests are to hard to complete that the vast majority of players which they could not possibly have any idea about ( save their own personal opinion and experience which certainly does not speak for the vast majority of players as they claim ) and nothing about xp these are completed regularly on hardcore on first life characters with a lot of garbage gear and not dying so how is it they are hard. Oh that's right they are not hard they just want easier mode isn't that what hard normal and casual are for.

If SSG did not cave into easy mode and left reaper at normal +2 instead of elite +2 level 18 and 19 would not have lock outs and then SSG could have moved the three heroic quests to epic even tho you can already run those after taking 20 and reaper would not be an issue. But after all easier is better just put a QoL in there and it does wonders.

I ran them on HC and got my 5k+ (anyone running 18/19 quests on elite on HC is at a whole different play level than a bunch of other DDO players) but that doesn't mean they're anything I'd run on live (outside of want ioun stones from dreaming dark or yugo favor to buy pots). Just because someone can beat them with RNG gear isn't the factor; I could beat old early epics without issue but they adjusted them with u51 because it was good for the health of the game/QoL, the same could be said for the 18/19 quests' mob scaling/reaper lockouts.

So what you are saying is that the yourself and others are superior to a bunch of other DDO players ( noobs ) I guess is the word you were looking for. I am sure plenty of less experienced players have run those off just fine in on first lifers with RNG gear just like I did and yet here set the old timers saying its to hard make it easier give us another concession ( oh wait its for the noobs not the whole different play level crowd ) QoL and all right.

Going into most any quest on a first lifer running around like a chicken with your head cut off will most times end up in a poor result that has nothing to do with difficultly or quest level on hardcore or live that has to do with quest knowledge, game mechanics, and a group effort to avoid those pit falls. There are plenty of quests, challenges, let alone optionals to avoid on hardcore or live that don't drop useful loot, give garbage xp, and are a waste of time unless it's for favor.


I have noticed that most of these types of threads to help the new players out the QoL are started and commented on by veteran players advocating for new players that must not have any ability to come to the forums and start a thread or communicate any ideas for themselves. Good thing we got the Vets to make sure the new players are getting all the QoL they need and are asking for in droves.

[Certon]

So i did it,
I TRed.

Now I am sitting at lvl20.
What are my options?
Basicaly i would continue doing 18lvl quests on reaper that make it 20lvl quests.
But here is 1st downside, you cant enter thouse dungeons on reaper, only on elite.

So does this feel like smooth transitions - NO!.

Also now we have gated epic abilities so additional power at lvl20 from epic destinies almost equal to 0.

So option number 2:
Run lvl 20 quests on reaper that makes it lvl22 quests. Is that smooth? - NO!.


And another thing to address is that if you open group panel with listed quests there isnt really support for epic versions of heroic quests.
So you have to open Adventure Compendium panel and sort there adventures by epic level. That way you able to see what quests at lvl20 you can to run.

Slayers after all seems like most easy choise to do.

My advice in the end is, if you've saved up DDO points from favor, get a 6 hour 50% xp pot and run level 18 and 19 quests on elite. The Stormhorns chain can get you to 21 easy, and if you've been running all the quests in Eveningstar up to that point, it will also unlock a couple saga rewards to get you halfway to 22.

It's not an elegant fix, but it will help you get through the doldrums right quick.

I did the very thing I suggested, and I actually got to 28 before my 6 hour pot wore off because I got a reaper group that blasted through a bunch of R1 and R2 content after that....

[rabidfox]

So what you are saying is that the yourself and others are superior to a bunch of other DDO players ( noobs ) I guess is the word you were looking for. I am sure plenty of less experienced players have run those off just fine in on first lifers with RNG gear just like I did and yet here set the old timers saying its to hard make it easier give us another concession ( oh wait its for the noobs not the whole different play level crowd ) QoL and all right.

What? Don't go around calling other player noobs and acting like it was something I said; I said whole different play level not skill level. Using HC people doing 18/19 quests is poor example of desire/purpose to run them on live; it's not a viable example of what the average player base does outside HC.

Reaper lockouts from running 18/19's when level 20+, not being able to bank epic XP while level 19 so one typically goes from 18 to 20 without taking 19, scaling of some 18/19 quests with higher stats than lvl 21 epics being outliers post u51 epic changes, etc. are all reasons why they're not run often and all things that could make them more viable on live. And these have nothing to do with new players, this is entirely reasons why I don't run them on live.

[Oxarhamar]

The fact is you don't need to run anything past level 16 to cap 20 at this point I guess if you want to re balance maybe the xp should be reduced in heroics to make those quests needed vs ignored by the masses.


s.

Well you identified the problem but thats some corrupt a wish solution

it is a good thing that heriocs have enoufh xp that every quest doesnt need to be run each life & you know what there is a whole seperate Server where that is the idea

Not signed

What was being asked for was to all those herioc quests on early Epic and remove the lockout

[Seph1roth5]

I like a lot of the new stuff in EDs, but still have a major issue with the power level on some of the enhancements. Many feel weaker than heroic. But looks like that's what the devs want so nothing I can do there.

My main issue with the smooth progression is that, on many of my characters, leveling just isn't exciting anymore because they tried too hard to make EDs have something for everyone. That sounds good on paper, but that means that many of my guys are just throwing points away to get to higher tiers.

Pretty sure every guy I've taken from 20-30 (maybe 6-7x since the update) has hit 30 and then gone "ah **** I need to spend 5 more points..."

[Oxarhamar]

I like a lot of the new stuff in EDs, but still have a major issue with the power level on some of the enhancements. Many feel weaker than heroic. But looks like that's what the devs want so nothing I can do there.

My main issue with the smooth progression is that, on many of my characters, leveling just isn't exciting anymore because they tried too hard to make EDs have something for everyone. That sounds good on paper, but that means that many of my guys are just throwing points away to get to higher tiers.

Pretty sure every guy I've taken from 20-30 (maybe 6-7x since the update) has hit 30 and then gone "ah **** I need to spend 5 more points..."

Yep a good design would you having to choose between things you want not spending points just to unlock higher tier

[TFerguson]

I've not re-levelled a caster so I cannot comment on that. But the levelling experience with both a melee and an archer in epics was an absolute joy. Mid-R epics might be my new favorite thing, it's even more fun that end-game high-Rs.

High-Reaper end game is where the systems's broken now, not levelling.

[Chacka_DDO]

Yep a good design would you having to choose between things you want not spending points just to unlock higher tier

The new EDs is full of cool ideas (IMHO) but some things are not good like I want an Illusionist with mass PK (Weird) but to get that I feel forced to take a lot of things that are complete nonsense for such a build and others seemingly are not working at all (Bring Darkness).

Or another example is they give you Turn Undead (something that is hard to make work even for a pure cleric with past lives) in EA and then it scales with your paladin level then I cannot else than think wait, WHAT?
And maybe it was another developer who did that, in Unyielding Sentinel they made it exactly right, now you can get Lay on Hands and it scales with the character level, exactly like it should be but they overdo it (IMHO) by making it based on constitution if this score is higher and it leaves the question why the original paladin Lay on Hands scales with the paladin level

I just hope that the developers are willing to do changes also based on player feedback and have the attitude to take player feedback as a most welcome help for improving DDO.

[LightBear]

Just a quick question if you wouldn't mind. Pre U51 I could fully understand the epic lock out on heroic quests. Now that lockout does seem a little out of place and just there as a hangover from past times. Will you (as in the dev team not just you personally) be looking at removing those restrictions at any point? The level 20 lockout on heroics had a point when level 20 characters could have a full destiny worth of power behind them but now it seems a rather jarring break in progress rather than a natural progression.

I'd like the hard restriction be removed both ways.
As a level 19 character I want to be able to join a level 20, 21 quest on r1.

I just tested if it was doable by running under geared and no destiny points spend on a level 20 quest as a level 20 character.
thus kinda mimicing a level 19 character.
Wasn't ideal (I only had level 5 gear on and not spend that many reaper points) but running with a full group it was totally doable.

[Jaxtan]

I'd like the hard restriction be removed both ways.
As a level 19 character I want to be able to join a level 20, 21 quest on r1.

I just tested if it was doable by running under geared and no destiny points spend on a level 20 quest as a level 20 character.
thus kinda mimicing a level 19 character.
Wasn't ideal (I only had level 5 gear on and not spend that many reaper points) but running with a full group it was totally doable.

That would be awesome! Truly seamless transition with more grouping opportunities. Same rules for power leveling could apply to keep the heroic character from grouping with high level characters without major xp penalties.