U52 Bow build damage comparison

[Carpone]

Rogue 12 Ranger 6 Warlock 2
Rogue 13 Ranger 6 Monk 1
Damage Comparison

The four different modes are:

Epic - All boosts including epic moment
Full - All boosts except epic moment
Partial - Haste Boost only
None - Just auto attacking

The damage numbers do not contain personal debuffs like Taint the Aura, Fetters of Unreality and Shadow Loss. When you factor those in, the Warlock split comes out ahead for both personal and group/raid damage. The Monk split has the advantage of bypassing slashing and bludgeoning innately with the second Arcane Archer core and a large amount of fire absorption, but that's not too relevant in the current endgame meta.

If there's no one else who can apply Shadow Loss against raid bosses, then lead with Shadow Strike then use Hunt's End + Manyshot thereafter as the Epic Strike. Shadow Loss has a 5 minute duration.

If you've previously followed my bow guides, there's nothing new here.

I constantly field the question "What about Arcane Archer?" In a nutshell, the tree hasn't been updated in a decade and it shows. The 25% doubleshot, Arrow of Slaying and 9d6 Elemental Arrow with 645 spellpower does not overcome the 80 Ranged Power, 1 Critical Threat Range and 21 Marked Target damage deficit compared to Horizon Walker. To reach functional DCs with the active attacks in Arcane Archer, you have to be WIS based which continues the downward spiral. Arcane Archer is fine for leveling 1-30 (as are many builds), but it has no place at the current end game in high skull reaper content.

[Tilomere]

Your math is wrong, because it is based on tooltips, and tooltips are computer extracted approximations of the actual abilities.



I've done the testing of abilities, the bug analysis of the EDs, and the actual correct math. Maybe this helps you understand spell powered ranged better.

My Christmas gift to you.

[Carpone]

You are underestimating the power of spell power on ranged builds. Look at proc damage

Your response epitomizes the reason why most players make suboptimal build decisions in this game: You propose a "look at my big numbas" highlight reel as authoritative instead of doing the math.

Statistically, you aren't going to keep Shadowdancer Bring Darkness stacks up with a ranged. You only have 15 attacks in a 12 second window to build/maintain a debuff that's only applied on a vorpal. Even with Haste Boost (relevant to bows) you can't maintain it. Bring Darkness can only be consistently applied/maintained by TWF or SWF because of their attack rate.

On a shuri build, DWS T5 is less damage than Horizon Walker T5+capstone.

[achaius]

Thanks for the comparison.

[TFerguson]

What's with the fire spell power if you're not in AA? does it stack with Redscale or something?

[Carpone]

While it's interesting that Dark Imbuement scales with Force Spell Power, it doesn't change the outcome for bows. At 627 Force Spell Power and 28 sneak dice, Hunt's End + Manyshot still eclipses Shadow Strike because Dark Imbuement does not scale with PRR/MRR debuffs (Fetters, Taint the Aura, Shadow Loss, etc). Replacing Harbinger of Chaos with Arcane Warrior actually reduces overall damage because force spell power scales poorly (+0.026% damage increase per +1 spell power). Not sure how you're getting 629 standing Force Spell Power when you're unable to obtain a Spell Implement bonus. Bow gets 57 USP as an Implement from AA core 1 due to it's +19 enhancement bonus (15 weapon + 3 Enchant Weapon PL x3 + AA core 1). I'm assuming you have 3pc artifact 50 USP slotted.

Claiming shuri does more damage than bow can be true in some conditions, but not others. For example, bow has 6% to-hit, +10 hit due to BAB and applies -6 AC more to the target compared to shuri. That's effectively +10% more to hit, and is relevant on higher AC bosses like Lord of Blades. Shuri isn't outpacing bow when it's missing on a 3 compared to bow only missing on a 1.

Your shuri build is so focused on maximizing SA dice that you're overlooking basics like not being able to strip SA immunity. It would be wise to shift Ninja Spy AP over to Assassin so you can get Assassin's Trick to address that deficiency. The fort bypass is a bonus.

The 5 SA dice you net with Rogue 9/Monk 6/Ranger 5 over a Monk 14/Ranger 6 is actually a DPS loss due to losing 40 doubleshot from 10k Stars and 9 favored enemy damage.

Here's the damage comparison of your build vs. a Monk 14 Ranger 6 that uses DWS T5. I used 629 Force Spell Power for both. It does not include Bring Darkness debuff, since ranged builds cannot consistently keep that debuff up with one stack, let alone get and maintain full stacks. It's similar to why I don't include Shattered Defense 4pc debuff in bow or shuri builds. Only repeater could keep it up by itself, but it's so far behind in damage to both that it doesn't matter.

Many happy returns to you.

[Tilomere]

Ahh, now we are getting there. Spell power is actually 669 with arcane warrior stacks x20 which is always up (I let it drop for picture because I was screenshotting gear and other parts of build I haven't put up yet.



Full boost, it should be 19.5k bane damage/shot with calculation bottom left, but here is where it gets tricksy. You can rotate the 10 second imbuement from the SD active shot (15 second cooldown) with the shadow dancer stealth dash (20 second cooldown) to keep it up 100% of the time. But against a raid boss you end up losing 15% of your auto attack time stealthing and dashing and using the slow SD active shot. In dungeons you don't lose much time because you stealth dash forward towards mobs as you progress, and start fight with that imbue, then swap to strike imbue after 10 seconds.

So you have full boost 19.5k/shot x .85 (15% lost time to keep imbuement up) x 86 shots/min / 60 seconds = 23k dps from imbuement x 30 sec = 712 (slightly less because you don't have power boost up the full 30 sec)

So 30 second boosted window should show slightly less than 712k damage for imbuement.



https://ddocompendium.com/w/Inexorable_Advance does 3d100+180 Cold Damage 3d100+180 Light Damage Scales with 200% Ranged Power 30% of the time

So 660 damage x .85 (loss of attacks to keep imbuement up) * 4.47 (attacks/throw) * (1+ 2x4.54 ranged power scaling (picture is without ult up)) * 86 throws/min / 60 seconds per min * 30 second duration * 30% proc chance = 324k

So epic moment should be 324k in procs according to my calculations, on top of 5.7% more physical and bane damage scaling.

Oh right, then -5% miss on 1 for everything. I'm not sure I would use favored enemy damage with just 6 ranger levels.

As you noted bane damage isn't the best for raid bosses, since it doesn't multiply by dust + ooze on your call lightning storm darksteel helm, but it is pretty nice for going through dungeons, because it cuts through anything.

Fire spell power is simply a byproduct of red dragon armor and so much universal spell power for boosting imbue/healing.

I think it may change the outcome for bows. I think you want to implement your bow with AA, swap boots to ins/qual potency and augment impulse or maybe gear around potency morgrave goggles, then swap GMoF to SD to pick up the imbuement on stealth dash. This will pick up a 10k? shot imbuement for 10 seconds, at a loss of a second or so of dps.

I'm not going to spend a second on assassin's mark and turn auto attack off to enable sniper shot usage to enable sneak damage. A 15k hp R10 mob with ~80% damage reduction takes ~75k damage to kill, which is ~3 hits (2 seconds of attacking at 1.5 attacks/sec and 20k bane/shiradi damage/hit). Most of the time in dungeons I have killer capped as well since mobs die in a few hits, but I don't know if that tips DWS over HW. I go DWS simply because it is 1 less action to take (tumbling and my character does enough. Screenshots and math above doesn't have killer.

[Carpone]

Let's move the shuriken discussion to the shuriken build thread. This thread is focused on bows.

[Tilomere]

Ok, so back to bows, I think you should give AA another shot. One needs Hunter's Focus + Aimed shot to maximize mobility while playing, so that's 3 ranger levels and 26 ap. After that, you can take rogue primary AA gives force imbue and spell power. SD imbue works off that force spell power and sneak die for epic scaling. End up with a fairly mobile bane/force damage ranged platform. The single hunts end you use every 20 seconds during dash imbue you can combo with arrow of slaying. TA movespeed can also be bumped to include haste boost.

17 rogue 3 ranger

T5 Shiradi, T4 SD, T1 Fatesinger gives RP/SP/threat reduction, and solo with renewal instead of fatesinger.

AA 41
Elf - Racial AP AA
HW 13+1 tome trance/AF stacks (drop trance without racial ap)
TA 8 Haste/Run speed (drop boost without racial ap)
DWS 12 Aimed/3sneak
Ass 3, 1 sneak (drop without racial ap)
3 Tempest (3 sec deflect) (drop without racial ap)

Can hit 700 sp with thrower, so +45 (AA tree) +36 (more implement on +22 weapon over thrower) will put one at 780 force spell power. 35 sneak die. 300 R power?

Imbue would be 35d6x4(R power)x8.8(Force power)x2 (100% doubleshot?) = 8.6k/attack * 40(attacks in 30 seconds with manyshot?) = 344k, plus you still get 1.5 Hunts End + Slaying Arrows in 30 seconds.

Will bring your strike damage up to the 450k total range? Loss of physical dmg from your build though, and I don't think force imbue will make it all up. I'm guessing AA-SD ties your HW-Shiradi build if the devs roughly balanced ranged combat, and the rogue versions of these two builds placed side by side will illustrate that balance.

Can do a monk lvl instead of rogue 17 for deflect arrows for easier play I think.

[t_ward5a]

Sorry if I missed it but how are you centered while using a bow with the monk build?

[unbongwah]

Sorry if I missed it but how are you centered while using a bow with the monk build?

Zen Archery feat: Greater Sun Stance's crit bonus applies while centered ("critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20") and stacks with Overwhelming Critical etc.

[t_ward5a]

Zen Archery feat: Greater Sun Stance's crit bonus applies while centered ("critical multiplier of all weapons you use is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20") and stacks with Overwhelming Critical etc.

Thanks for the response. I should have been more clear. I was referring to OP's build as I did not see Zen Archery on the feat list so that is why I am confused.

EDIT: I see now that Zen Archery is granted from GMoF. Thanks for the help!

[Bluenoser]

Thanks for posting this; really great stuff in there. One quick question I had about the Rogue 12 Ranger 6 Warlock 2--can you explain the choice to take Quicken at 18, and would you still recommend that over, say, WF: Ranged, Dodge, or even IPS for situational use while grouping? (Quicken's being used for Consume, Ddoor, Haste, and maybe Obscuring Mist (if Fey Pact) + LGS salt, I think?)

Also, in the full guide you posted you included a soloing version that's Halfling 13/6/1 Barbarian. That one took Imp Evasion as the second Rogue feat, but you get that from the 3rd core of Shadowdancer--do you use a different ED layout for soloing? (I only see one ED layout, on p.7) Or, is it to get the no-fail reflex save from SD's 3rd core while soloing?

Thanks in advance!

[dredre9987]

Thanks for posting this; really great stuff in there. One quick question I had about the Rogue 12 Ranger 6 Warlock 2--can you explain the choice to take Quicken at 18, and would you still recommend that over, say, WF: Ranged, Dodge, or even IPS for situational use while grouping? (Quicken's being used for Consume, Ddoor, Haste, and maybe Obscuring Mist (if Fey Pact) + LGS salt, I think?)

Also, in the full guide you posted you included a soloing version that's Halfling 13/6/1 Barbarian. That one took Imp Evasion as the second Rogue feat, but you get that from the 3rd core of Shadowdancer--do you use a different ED layout for soloing? (I only see one ED layout, on p.7) Or, is it to get the no-fail reflex save from SD's 3rd core while soloing?

Thanks in advance!

If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

[Bluenoser]

If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

With respect, yes you do. IE means you suffer no damage if you successfully save and half damage even if you fail. You'd need the Epic Reflexes feat to not fail even on a 1. IE + 3rd core of Shadowdancer effectively gives you Epic Reflexes.

[Epicsoul]

IE + 3rd core of Shadowdancer effectively gives you Epic Reflexes.

That's what Dredre is saying.

Bluenoser: "That one took Imp Evasion as the second Rogue feat, but you get that from the 3rd core of Shadowdancer"

Dredre: "If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1"

[Bluenoser]

Sorry, misunderstood--since that's all they wrote (didn't realize they were quoting something), it looked like they were saying it was part of Improved Evasion.

In any case, I'm eager to hear if that's why Carpone took that, and also the answer to my other question. Thanks!

[Carpone]

Thanks for posting this; really great stuff in there. One quick question I had about the Rogue 12 Ranger 6 Warlock 2--can you explain the choice to take Quicken at 18, and would you still recommend that over, say, WF: Ranged, Dodge, or even IPS for situational use while grouping? (Quicken's being used for Consume, Ddoor, Haste, and maybe Obscuring Mist (if Fey Pact) + LGS salt, I think?)

Also, in the full guide you posted you included a soloing version that's Halfling 13/6/1 Barbarian. That one took Imp Evasion as the second Rogue feat, but you get that from the 3rd core of Shadowdancer--do you use a different ED layout for soloing? (I only see one ED layout, on p.7) Or, is it to get the no-fail reflex save from SD's 3rd core while soloing?

Thanks in advance!

Casting Consume without Quicken is miserable. Consume is *the* reason for Warlock 2, and you'll be casting it every 12-15 seconds during a boss fight so your group or raid benefits from +10% damage dealt to the target. Quicken + Obscuring Mist + LGS Salt bow is a nice trick too.

I don't care about IPS, as I don't solo. I use the bow build primarily for raiding when ranged is desired. I typically don't run R10 quests as ranged, since melee do much higher damage. I prefer Shadar-Kai Rogue 20 Assassin or Aasimar Fighter 20 THF for reaper XP.

As others have explained, Improved Evasion + Shadowdancer Core 3 means you don't automatically fail a Reflex save when you roll a 1.