U52: Two shuriken builds with damage calculations

[Carpone]

Monk 20

Monk 14 Ranger 6 (DWS T5)

Monk 14 Ranger 6 (Horizon Walker T5+Capstone)

Damage comparison

The damage numbers do contain personal debuffs, which in this case is limited to Shadow Loss from Shadow Strike for the pure Monk. The numbers also include Favored Enemy damage, which is highly relevant with the Horizon Walker capstone.

The four different modes are:

Epic - All boosts including epic moment
Full - All boosts except epic moment and Diversion
Partial - Ranged Power only
None - Just auto attacking

The gearset is truly a work of art, especially the ability to swap in spell absorb cloaks with minimal loss. The gear is optimized for high level reaper play including raids. If you're going to solo, then the gear will be different as you'll want the new Raptor Tooth Necklace and Soulrazor for a net +21 damage.

Crusade is actually the highest damage epic strike for pure monk, but losing Shadowdancer or Grandmaster of Flowers for it is an overall DPS loss.

The favored enemy calculations don't show the complete picture: The Ranger split covers all raid bosses except for Hound of Xoriat. The pure version only covers Evil Outsiders.

[Carpone]

Added a third build (HW T5+capstone) and tweaked the gearset to include enough Assassinate DCs to allow Shadow Loss to be consistently applied. Also added in a Quick Draw augment which was an oversight.

The epic strikes are determined dynamically based on which one does the highest damage for the build. In some cases Crusade actually does the most damage, but it's not included since taking Divine Crusader over Shiradi/Shadowdancer/GMOF would be an overall DPS loss.

The pure Monk leads the epic moment numbers purely because of Diversion. Those five extra SA dice are that good. The downside with Diversion is it's 3 minute cooldown, so Diversion can't be calculated into any other mode since you absolutely want it active during the epic moment.

The DWS T5 calculations improved by switching from alternating Head Shot/Sniper Shot with Hunt's End to just using Sniper Shot. The 2x crit multiplier on it combined with the +18 threat is that much better.

Horizon Walker does come out ahead for non-epic moments, but that's only against true favored enemies where you're stacking regular FE damage on top of the Marked Target as FE from the capstone.

Given the choice between them, I'd play the 14/6 Horizon Walker for Sniper Shot. Not only does it ensure you can remove SA immunity, but it gives you something to do besides just auto-attack.

[Carpone]

Added three different gear sets to the guides. The first doesn't require any new augments, though you can certainly benefit from the Ranged Power one. The second set contains a perfected artifact for those lucky enough with a Nebula frag. And the third one is labeled "unobtainium" since it requires a double set bonus on Gem of Many Facets.

Also tweaked the AP split on the 14/6 to go 11 VKF, which is an overall damage and AC increase from augments. With this change, 14/6 eeks ahead of Monk 20 against a favored enemy.

[TFerguson]

Can you share the calcs and not just the results?

[Carpone]

Can you share the calcs and not just the results?

After the next Lamannia when I can test Great Crossbow and verify several other factors, I'll post a state of all ranged builds by the numbers. In that analysis I will provide a breakdown of each damage source.

As far as the calculations themselves, it's simply not possible to condense 3k lines of code into a forum post. I will include a lengthly explanation with the limitations, caveats, etc to interpret the numbers in the most objective way possible.

[Carpone]

Continuing the shuriken discussion from the bow thread as this is a more appropriate place for it.

How are you getting such high force spell power on a shuri? Are you getting Spell Implement bonus from somewhere? Here's the breakdown I have:

Force Spell Power:
139 Impulse augment
002 Spellcraft (Completionist)
002 Spellcraft (Racial Completionist)
001 Spellcraft (Dragonborn PL)
001 Spellcraft (Tiefling PL)
003 Spellcraft (Artificer PL x3)
011 Spellcraft (heroic skill ranks)
004 Spellcraft (Mysterious Remnant tome)
005 Spellcraft (Skill Tome)
010 Spellcraft (Epic ranks to all skills)
003 Spellcraft (Martial Skills PL x3)
015 Spellcraft (INT modifier)
004 Spellcraft (Scion of the Ethereal Plane)
003 Spellcraft (Guild ship - Forbidden Library)
004 Spellcraft (Greater Heroism)
019 Spellcraft (Spellcraft augment)
003 Spellcraft (Shiradi Good Luck 3)
005 Force Spell Power (Shiradi Fey Favor)
005 Force Spell Power (Shiradi Vision)
005 Force Spell Power (Shiradi Fey Form)
010 Force Spell Power (Shiradi Feywild Attunement)
005 Force Spell Power (Shadowdancer Shadow Training)
005 Force Spell Power (Shadowdancer Step Through Shadows)
005 Force Spell Power (Shadowdancer The Darkest Luck)
020 Force Spell Power (Epic feat)
025 USP (Alchemical - Commendation of Valor potion)
002 USP (Reaper’s Arcanum IV)
004 USP (Reaper’s Arcanum V)
042 USP (Reaper’s Arcana)
005 USP (Shiradi Fey Favor)
005 USP (Shiradi Vision)
005 USP (Shiradi Fey Form)
010 USP (Shiradi Feywild Attunement)
005 USP (Shadowdancer Shadow Training)
005 USP (Shadowdancer Step Through Shadows)
005 USP (Shadowdancer The Darkest Luck)
060 USP (Epic Power - 10 levels)
025 USP (Touch of Power augment set)
TBD Mythic/Reaper items
--
487

Not specifically included: Insightful and Quality Potency (Sunken Slippers) which accounts for 74 USP and Arcane Warrior which accounts for 40. Even with those added, it's still 68 shy from the numbers you posted.

I've run the calcs for Arcane Warrior vs Harbinger of Chaos, and Harbinger still beats it. If there was a way to trigger the +1 RP portion of Arcane Warrior, then it would be worth it.

Slamming Sunken Slippers into the build has a detrimental cascading tetris effect. Post your gear set so I can do an apples to apples comparisons.

You can rotate the 10 second imbuement from the SD active shot (15 second cooldown) with the shadow dancer stealth dash (20 second cooldown) to keep it up 100% of the time. But against a raid boss you end up losing 15% of your auto attack time stealthing and dashing and using the slow SD active shot. In dungeons you don't lose much time because you stealth dash forward towards mobs as you progress, and start fight with that imbue, then swap to strike imbue after 10 seconds.

I build for high skull raid bosses, not RXP. Trash already dies laughably fast in R10 quests so optimizing for trash is not a goal.

From the Shadows is tedious to use since it requires stealthing. I'm not going to model it into damage calculations for the same reason I don't model refreshing Tenser's Transformation scrolls into it -- it's an overall damage loss because you stop boss damage to use it. There are some reasonable opportunities to Tenser's, like LOB when he goes Superman, VoD when Suulo ports, or Strahd when he goes misty. But KT, MA, Baba and Dryad? Not so much.

86 shots/min

Is that with Tenser's active? I'm using a much more conservative 72 attacks/min with BAB 20.

[Tilomere]

How are you getting such high force spell power on a shuri?

Enhancement 146,
Insight 73,
Quality 24,
Implement 30 (kama),
Artifact 15,
20 Force Feat,
60 Epic Power Feat,
40 arcane warrior feat,
93 spellcraft
60 ED cores,
10 Lithe
10 Fey Form,
20 Feywild Attunement
48 Reaper
20 Alchemical (not in picture, but you could use if u want 3 min cooldown clicky)
25 Commendation Spell Power Untyped
5 Mythic
10 Wild magic
10 Well of Darkness
-20 Feywild Attunement and Wild magic are bugged and 0, and Artifact is 25 not 15 as listed.

699 Force Spell Power ( I don't personally use the Alchemical 3 min pots though)

You can get 20 more spell power and 8 more ranged power if you swap US renewal out for Fatesinger, and yes, the sunken slippers out for more dps boots, but I really like how beefy renewal can get, and half the time I even remember to cast it on other people that need it.

Gear is here.

A lot of the ED spell power is force and universal for double force value total.

[Tilomere]

I'm using a much more conservative 72 attacks/min with BAB 20.

So, there was a system danger overload cap of 86 shots/min for bows and thrown, and they both used to hit it.

They nerfed bow rate of fire to that 72 rate of fire with bow pass and added crit/multiplier to it, but allowed it to be hasted back to ~86 shots/min removing system overload cap for bows. Throwers at 25 BaB are at 86, but my thrower at BaB 22 is ~82 shots/min (I just timed it). It used to be 86 before they nerfed whirling wrists in U51.

Stealthing and dashing is 6 seconds (3 times per minute each in rotation), and regular slow strike shot is a loss of about .5 seconds x3 per minute in ration, for a total loss of around 7.5 seconds/min of attacking.

So your math is almost exactly right for the imbued case. Just keep it at 72 shots/min, update spell power and any other stats you see fit, and put the imbuement on every shot.

Mmm, maybe the dash isn't worth it in raids, but I would still use it in dungeons to ignore mob defenses.

[Carpone]

Bows (30 BAB) are 76 or 77/min, depending on lag. I use 72/min because refreshing Misty Step has an impact on the attack rate. The 30 RP gain comes out ahead of losing 4 attacks.

How are you getting 22 BAB on Rogue 9/Monk 6/Ranger 5? It's 15 BAB from class levels and 5 from epic levels:

Rogue 9 = BAB 6
Monk 6 = BAB 4
Ranger 5 = BAB 5

As far as gear goes, I don't see Assassinate bonuses to consistently land Shadow Loss. While shuriken has a higher primary stat than many builds, it's not enough to make up for a 22 DC deficit. You can use the Marshreed Cloak for +15 Assassinate and craft +6 INS Assassinate on your Cannith Crafted offhand instead of INS Tendon Slice, slotting a Deadly augment instead of Hide.

You're leaving quite a bit of damage on the floor by not incorporating Insightful Seeker, Quality Seeker, Quality Deadly, Insightful Deception, Quality Deception and Armor Piercing in your gear set. I am not a fan of gearing around healing in my main set. My job as DPS is to do damage (and avoid it), not be a rescue healer in the middle of combat. If I need to heal, then I'd incorporate Shadowdancer Sleight of Hand into the build and scroll heal outside of combat, or have a swap item for out of combat with devotion filigree. Well built healers can already self-heal decently in R10.

Here's an updated version of my gearset that incorporates the gaps from yours. The only things lacking are Action Boosts, Quality Potency and artifact WIS.



The perfected artifact isn't required. Doctor's LeRoux's Curious Implant is a perfectly reasonable alternative.

[Tilomere]

Bows (30 BAB) are 76 or 77/min, depending on lag. I use 72/min because refreshing Misty Step has an impact on the attack rate. The 30 RP gain comes out ahead of losing 4 attacks.

How are you getting 22 BAB on Rogue 9/Monk 6/Ranger 5? It's 15 BAB from class levels and 5 from epic levels:

Rogue 9 = BAB 6
Monk 6 = BAB 4
Ranger 5 = BAB 5

As far as gear goes, I don't see Assassinate bonuses to consistently land Shadow Loss.

You're leaving quite a bit of damage on the floor by not incorporating Insightful Seeker, Quality Seeker, Quality Deadly, Insightful Deception, Quality Deception and Armor Piercing in your gear set. I am not a fan of gearing around healing in my main set. My job as DPS is to do damage (and avoid it), not be a rescue healer in the middle of combat.

Monks are full BaB 6 on centered weapons (shuriken), I dunno how it is 22 and not 21, maybe the display is rounding up, maybe the game is.

If I wanted to boost dps, I could swap in Devilscale Bracers for +22 assassinate once every 5 minutes, and dust + ooze darksteel helms. I'm not fighting anything that warrants that though. Shiradi paralyze T5 is bugged and should be swapped to bring darkness as well for partial uptime.

I have insightful deception on cloak, but my job is to solo or PUG and that includes tossing heals here and there. I almost always remember to toss heals on myself. Here are the numbers I am running at with renewal/healing, with approximation that swapping to partial bring darkness keeps your auto attack and epic moment damage roughly the same as you calculated out already at 72 attacks/min, and putting imbue damage on every hit as I play.



You may want to look at swapping your bow strike and gearing spell power as well, or alternatively swapping your bow second destiny investment in SD higher to grab the imbue on dash.

You are right though, I am leaving damage on the floor. Interested to see how far you can push this. USP artifact is 15, but otherwise I'll let you figure out optimal high R raid setup. The MRR cap increase is probably necessary on rings, so yea, build around that. You should find when you build this for max dps/raiding you are probably required to swap to fatesinger as a third tree simply because of threat reduction, with the happy side benefit of more ranged power and spell power.

Oh, and good luck with that Gem of Many Facets!

Edit: I JUST REALIZED WE ARE BOTH USING EPIC STRIKES WRONG. WE SHOULDN'T BE USING ONE OR THE OTHER, BUT BOTH IN A DPS ROTATION. USE HUNTS END WHEN THE IMBUE FROM SD DASH IS UP, AND USE SD STRIKE IMBUMENT WHEN DASH IMBUE ENDS

The purpose of giving us multiple EDs was never so we maximized one, but so we could weave them together.

The perfected artifact isn't required.

I made a legendary Jidtz, and it didn't have the +5 sneak die the wiki says it does in air stance so I tossed it. Just an FYI for your ultimate gearing!

[Carpone]

The second BAB value for Monks only applies to handwraps:



Fair point about swapping in Devilscale Bracers for Assassinate. I personally hate gear swaps for stuff like that, because I'll forget to do it half the time. And most players aren't going to grab a piece of raid loot for an occasional swap. Swapping in a sentient weapon every 2 min to refresh No Step Missed or spell absorb items is about as far as I'm willing to incorporate gear swaps.

I was already aware about using Hunt's End after From the Darkness. The problem with both your 9/6/5 split and the pure monk is that there's no active attack to pair with Hunt's End besides Pin, which only works for half the activations and is mediocre at best. Only the 14/6 split has Sniper Shot, which is amazing damage to pair with Hunt's End.

Even when using a macro to Stealth -> From the Darkness, it's tedious to use. 99% of players aren't going to do that. I try to design around what the majority of players can reasonably do.

There's also a problem with the ED split and gearset you propose: You have no inherent good and silver DR bypass. You have to have a second fully maxed sentient Salazar with those augments, and then you lose -15% for bypass from Deconstructor. Going GMOF instead of Unyielding Sentinel solves that problem, as well as ensures you never run out of ki for 10k Stars with Inner Focus. Not to mention the 12 RP you gain from GMOF compared to Unyielding.

Here's the damage calcs for your gearset and mine, using 630 force spell power:



That's the difference 9 crit dmg, 3 quality deception and 3 quality deadly makes. That also doesn't reflect the +20% fortification bypass in my gearset, as there's no automatic way to model it against a phantom target.

ETA: The calcs don't include 4% doubleshot difference due to the Helm of the Final Watcher, nor the 25 USP from the Touch of Power augment set. No reason to rerun the calcs since the outcome is the same.

Monk 20 with my gear set eclipses both due to 30 sneak dice (35 boosted), 1x crit multiplier, way more doubleshot during 10k stars, and has an additional 15% fort bypass and effective +6 to hit from Horizon Walker core 4:



Also Monk 20 has a huge quality of life benefit: 30% movement speed compared to 10%. Runspeed = life for ranged.

None of these calcs include Wellspring of Power, which is another 150 USP. The only downside is that it's pretty much relegated to Epic Moment only, since it's on a 3 min cooldown.

I'm not concerned with shuri pulling aggro in raids long term. It's pretty obvious that Dark Imbuement using force spell power in addition to ranged power and doubleshot is not working as intended. Enjoy it while it lasts, just like Cut the Strings in Fatesinger benefitting EKs in a similar way.

[Tilomere]

It's pretty obvious that Dark Imbuement using force spell power in addition to ranged power and doubleshot is not working as intended.

If you cut the damage to the 1/3rd that a normal rogue SD build would have with crossbows it matches Hunt's End. If you cut the damage to 1/3rd that a normal rogue SD build with crossbows gets and then cut the damage by 1/7th again by removing spell power scaling there would be no reason to ever use the SD strike or go T4 SD for dash imbue. You would just always use Hunt's End + Sniper Shot, and we would end up with your bow build tossing crossbows and thrown, since bows have the highest synergy with Hunt's End + Sniper Shot.

So the math says since this is the rogue ED it has to scale to make crossbow rogues match Hunt's End Sniper Shot ranger bow builds. I'll illustrate with your own math. When you remove Dark Imbuement as a meaningful strike, you end up with the suicidal stand in a consecrate repeater build that's not really playable in dungeons anyways because it lacks aimed shot to maintain AF stacks while moving being far out-damaged by the kite and live bow build which is playable and can maintain AF stacks, and you eliminate repeater builds from the game.


Your repeater builds need an extra 300k or so damage, which they could get by using rogue SD imbue setup instead of crusader. The imbue has an ICD of every other hit of a repeater auto attack. When you redo your math for crossbow and thrower builds, you will find that the game actually falls into fair balance. Even AA isn't so bad because it has spell power synergy with imbue. I'm pretty sure it isn't intended that in order for any class to do ranged damage, it must multiclasses with ranger, and must use the ranger enhancement tree and attacks in the ranger epic destiny with a ranger bow weapon.. Ranger vs. rogue is also a lot closer for most people who build some healing in, since ranger can fit in another power ED while rogue needs a healing ED.

Monk 20 is 30% instead of 19% movespeed (rogue acrobat has 9%), but it doesn't have aimed shot for going through dungeons or using hunt's end. It would be better for raiding, but hasn't been able to maintain stacks through dungeons of AF since the proc nerf. It is fine in dungeons with IPS though. Your math shows it would transition to an incredible raider too.

Flurry of Blows for BaB is monk weapons, not just handwraps.

The APM is actually why I made this build. Imbue is 9 APM, 10k is 1, boosts are 3.5, 0.5 for trance, and aimed shot is 0-6 if needed. Total 14-20 APM. I have played everything 1-30+ and this is much easier to play than DWS or HW. I didn't like how Hunt's End + Sniper shot alone was 15 APM and really isn't even that much dps, before adding in boosts, trance, hops, aimed shots, marks, manyshots, opening shots, corner the quarry, pin/whistler.

If you are already saying it isn't worth using the dash imbue, then I don't see them nerfing it by a factor of 7. Plus SD isn't just meant for ranged with many hits per attack, it is also meant for melee rogues, which have at most 2 hits per attack due to ICD. My understanding is the throwing nerf they do have planned is to reduce throwing attack speed 20%, allow throwers to benefit from haste boost back up, and to add crit and multiplier and power like they did with bows.

Monk Diversion 5 sneak attack die doesn't work, or maybe is tied to quarterstaff use like the capstone was last I checked. They said they patched the capstone but I haven't checked it since. So 9 die from NiS, 6 from SD (nimble fingers one drops on death), 6 Scion, 3 artifact, 3 racial = 27? Where is the other 3? Monk still pulls ahead though for raid alts!

TY for all the math you have done, time to work on converting my alt to a monk! It is useful to understand how the game is put together and various values of strikes and combat modes.

[Carpone]

So the math says since this is the rogue ED it has to scale to make crossbow rogues match Hunt's End Sniper Shot ranger bow builds.

Math is math and has no agenda. You're implying intent when there is none. If DDO has taught players anything in its 16 years, it is not a zero sum game. There is always a build or playstyle that trumps others. The devs have consistently nerfed the highest performing builds. In my personal experience, that started with arcanes at level 20 cap that used to have an 8 second cooldown for Wail of the Banshee. And then devs revamp a tree or style that catapults it the top to rinse and repeat the process (Inquisitive, Alchemist, and THF changes in the past 3 years readily come to mind).

When you remove Dark Imbuement as a meaningful strike, you end up with the suicidal stand in a consecrate repeater build that's not really playable in dungeons anyways because it lacks aimed shot to maintain AF stacks while moving being far out-damaged by the kite and live bow build which is playable and can maintain AF stacks, and you eliminate repeater builds from the game.

Not my circus, not my monkey. I have no investment in the outcome of one build over another. I crunch numbers based on reality, not based on the game I want it to be. Regardless of the state of repeater damage, Artificer 20 has been instrumental for us completing the litany of R10 raid achievements because of Prismatic Strike and Mass Unbreakable Forcefield. Max damage doesn't matter when your tank isn't alive.

If you think repeater damage numbers are anemic compared to bow and shuriken, then you haven't done the math on great crossbow, throwing dagger or Inquisitive.

I'm pretty sure it isn't intended that in order for any class to do ranged damage, it must multiclasses with ranger, and must use the ranger enhancement tree and attacks in the ranger epic destiny with a ranger bow weapon..

Shiradi isn't the ranger epic destiny. Bow isn't a ranger weapon. Horizon Walker isn't a ranger enhancement tree.

Ranger offers the greatest synergy for many ranged builds due to auto-granted feats and Deepwood Stalker enhancements. But Ranger is not required. Inquisitive and Great Crossbow don't use Ranger levels. Monk 20 is a top ranged build even when you remove the force spell power scaling.

Monk 20 is 30% instead of 19% movespeed (rogue acrobat has 9%)

Class run speed sources are multiplicative so it's 19.9%. But I don't see 3 AP spent in Acrobat.

it doesn't have aimed shot for going through dungeons or using hunt's end

Aimed Shot isn't required to build stacks of Archer's Focus thanks to Hunter's Focus. In fact it's much easier to maintain 25 stacks of AF zooming through a dungeon with Hunter's Focus than it is with Aimed Shot.

Your math shows it would transition to an incredible raider too.

I build for raids because when you're spending 30 min in a challenging-to-your-guild raids, squeezing every last bit of damage out of a build matters. Scaling down from raids to quests works reasonably well. The same can't be said for builds focused on quests scaling up to raids.

Flurry of Blows for BaB is monk weapons, not just handwraps.

The wiki is not authoritative. More often that not, it has incorrect or incomplete information. I stopped relying on it a long time ago.

If you are already saying it isn't worth using the dash imbue

That's not what I said. I said it's tedious to use, and most players won't use that combo due to that. I personally won't use it because it doesn't fit my play style, in a similar way that I don't like playing builds with Barbarian rage even though wolves are still the barometer all STR-based builds have to compete with.

My understanding is the throwing nerf they do have planned is to reduce throwing attack speed 20%, allow throwers to benefit from haste boost back up, and to add crit and multiplier and power like they did with bows.

Monks are due for an update according to Sev's latest lunchtime livestream about a month ago. Beyond that, no details have been released.

So 9 die from NiS, 6 from SD (nimble fingers one drops on death), 6 Scion, 3 artifact, 3 racial = 27? Where is the other 3?

It's all there in the guide.

Sneak Attack Damage:
021 Scion of Ethereal Plane (6 dice)
3.5 Treachery 3pc (1 dice)
10.5 Artifact (3 dice)
007 Shadowstrike 5pc (2 dice)
10.5 Shadowdancer: Cores (3 dice)
10.5 Shadowdancer: Dance in the Dark (3 dice)
014 Ninja Spy enhancements (4 dice)
10.5 Halfling enhancements (3 dice)
003 Past Life: Rogue x3
017 Deception (+11 item)
008 Insightful Deception (+5 item)
004 Quality Deception (+2 item)
004 Deception filigree
17.5 Ninja Master (5 dice)
—-
141 sustained sneak attack damage
015 Sneak of Shadows
17.5 Ninja Spy: Diversion (20 sec)
–
173.5 burst sneak attack damage

I don't know if Ninja Master is only applying to quarterstaves like Diversion used to. Someone with a 20 Monk can verify. If it is, then I'm sure Lynnabel will be happy to fix it like he did with Diversion.

[Mindos]

I would just like to slightly derail here and interject if I may:

Thank you to both of you for this discussion. The back and forth has been very informative. And now I wonder if Monk's with longbows are getting full BAB with Zen archery.

[SouCarioca]

Math is math and has no agenda. You're implying intent when there is none. If DDO has taught players anything in its 16 years, it is not a zero sum game.

This is logical though, since the game at its core is not designed to be about soloing or the single highest hitting glass cannon.

in a similar way that I don't like playing builds with Barbarian rage even though wolves are still the barometer all STR-based builds have to compete with.

This perked my interest, but realize you are talking to a relative noob in spite of the misleading date of join (one month played, and then twelve years not). Do you have a build or thread I can refer to to examine and learn from? Happy New Year BTW.

[Tilomere]

You're implying intent when there is none.

SSG has intent for EDs and combat and class usage. I'm implying their intent is to not have ranged damage come from every single class splashing ranger and using hunt's end + sniper shot with a bow, and that the math results on live with imbue as-is reflect that intent. Shuriken are merely a current outlier because unliked bows and crossbows they haven't had their combat revamped yet.

Class run speed sources are multiplicative so it's 19.9%. But I don't see 3 AP spent in Acrobat.

Ya it's offscreen along with 8 AP in HeM for ki regen. I think all the 1%/lvl movement bonuses are same type and don't stack between classes.

Ranger offers the greatest synergy for many ranged builds due to auto-granted feats and Deepwood Stalker enhancements. But Ranger is not required. Inquisitive and Great Crossbow don't use Ranger levels. Monk 20 is a top ranged build even when you remove the force spell power scaling.

Monk 20 is not a top ranged build, bow beats it by enough without imbue that you very rarely see a shuriken build in-game where few know how to use imbue. I started my build as pure 20 monk, then swapped when my monk couldn't maintain AF stacks at the speed groups go through dungeons and due to needing to kite to avoid damage due to self-healing reaper penalty. Hunter's Focus wasn't good enough for me on its own for pug or solo play. I could have kept with the pure 20 monk and used IPS in dungeons, but I wanted high proc damage, so swapped build up.

I build for raids because when you're spending 30 min in a challenging-to-your-guild raids, squeezing every last bit of damage out of a build matters. Scaling down from raids to quests works reasonably well. The same can't be said for builds focused on quests scaling up to raids.

All my all-purpose heal/tank/dps PUG dungeon builds scale perfectly into pug raids, or even just soloing those raids. My thrower tanked PUG LoB, VoD, and Dryad last night!

The wiki is not authoritative. More often that not, it has incorrect or incomplete information. I stopped relying on it a long time ago.

I tried to update the wiki for a bunch of build-destroying bugs, and then I got banned for not following unposted guidelines. The BaB displayed on my thrower is 22 from 6 (9 rogue levels), 6 (6 monk levels), 5 (5 ranger levels) and 5 (10 epic levels).

007 Shadowstrike 5pc (2 dice).

Huh, so Shadowstrike tops crackshot. Huh. I didn't do the math for that.

Shiradi isn't the ranger epic destiny. Bow isn't a ranger weapon. Horizon Walker isn't a ranger enhancement tree.

Have you ever seen or played a good ranged dps bow build that wasn't built around ranger attacks and enhancements? In the history of DDO, has it ever been possible to make a good bow build without ranger levels and ranger abilities? If bows have never and if they will never not have ranger enhancement due to needing Aimed Shot for AF stacks (Hunter's Focus isn't enough for dungeons), then bows are ranger weapons, and Shiradi, which is tailored to bow use, is the ranger destiny, even if other classes can get some use out of it primarily by splashing and playing at least somewhat as a ranger.

[Ulfo]

I don't know if Ninja Master is only applying to quarterstaves like Diversion used to. Someone with a 20 Monk can verify. If it is, then I'm sure Lynnabel will be happy to fix it like he did with Diversion.

Work for any centered weapon, stars included. 8)

[Carpone]

SSG has intent for EDs and combat and class usage. I'm implying their intent is to not have ranged damage come from every single class splashing ranger and using hunt's end + sniper shot with a bow, and that the math results on live with imbue as-is reflect that intent.

Nukers use Shiradi and don't have Ranger levels. You're conflating Ranger with ranged.

You don't use Hunt's End + Sniper Shot with a bow. Hunt's End + Manyshot is far superior because all three shots are affected by HE.

I think all the 1%/lvl movement bonuses are same type and don't stack between classes.

It's multiplicative.

Monk 20 is not a top ranged build, bow beats it by enough without imbue that you very rarely see a shuriken build in-game where few know how to use imbue.

The damage calculations clearly demonstrate that shuriken blows away every ranged build at the moment with Dark Imbuement due to it having the highest doubleshot of all ranged builds. Even before I factored in DI, shuriken was highly competitive. For challenge raids, shuriken have higher sustained damage than bows due to limitless ki available for 10k stars. The only drawback shuriken have in my mind is lack of weapon debuffs it brings to challenge/shortman raids. There are no shuriken with LGS Vacuum, Ooze or Dust like there is for other ranged weapon types. I did a 4-man R5 LOB and VOD where the only DPS were 1 bow and 1 shuriken, and the pure Monk held it's own.

my monk couldn't maintain AF stacks at the speed groups go through dungeons and due to needing to kite

If you're pulling aggro in quests while in a group, it's because you're engaging mobs before melee do.

Hunter's Focus wasn't good enough for me on its own for pug or solo play.

5-8 stacks of AF every 6 seconds isn't good enough, yet 3 AF stacks every 10 seconds if there is a mob to hit is? You need to work on your strawman game.

[Carpone]

Thank you to both of you for this discussion. The back and forth has been very informative. And now I wonder if Monk's with longbows are getting full BAB with Zen archery.

Even with full BAB as a monk, it's still only 25. You'll get 30 BAB from either T5 Horizon Walker or Shiradi. And if you're playing pure Monk, shuriken leaves bow in it's review mirror thanks to Advanced Ninja Training, Shuriken Expertise and 10k Stars.

[Tilomere]

Hunter's Focus wasn't good enough for me on its own for pug or solo play.

If you're pulling aggro in quests while in a group, it's because you're engaging mobs before melee do.

5-8 stacks of AF every 6 seconds isn't good enough, yet 3 AF stacks every 10 seconds if there is a mob to hit is? You need to work on your strawman game.

Yes, especially when solo or in pugs which commonly don't have a melee tanky enough to engage first I engage mobs before melee, and then kite with the wind!

Neither HF or AS was good enough on its own for maintaining AF stacks to produce high procs. I needed both. Your math shows IPS instead on a pure 20 monk doesn't look so bad though, which matches my experience. Your math also has so much weight to sneak die as to be worth 5 filigree slots, so I swapped my build up to get 2 more and use water stance at a loss of 4 dex instead of HeM for ki regen. I like the extra dodge too.


Shuriken are outliers, and the EDs were rushed out with bugs and not perfectly balanced for all cases. But the point of this wasn't to make another death star (Way ahead of you!) which always gets blown up after destroying a single planet (L2P Empire, L2P). The point overall was that the crossbow builds, the arcane archers, the knife throwers, everything recently worked on should come into better balance and open up as fair game relative to your bow build. And since your bow build is good enough, they should also be about good enough so people can play whatever they want to play, exactly as it is intended to work and play.

For example, I can take the Epic Snowball dart from Tower of Frost, build it out as primarily spell power secondary sneak die as a Vile Chemist, or primarily sneak die as a mechanic, or primary crit as a swash/barb/ranger, and all three will converge on your bow build damage with optimal imbue/hunt's end rotation usage.

I build for high skull raid bosses, not RXP.

Hmm, let me make some suggestions to consider for that. We can get back to this now that the math is done.

First, don't build for burst dps, build for sustained. Burst dps is better utility, in that you can control your on-demand damage, and therefore is overall lower dps than sustained dps where you can't control your damage. That means don't build around constant bow usage with manyshot burst or sniper shot and hunt's end burst.

Second, build for non-utility. You did the math, which shows pure monks come out on top. SSG coded the system of that math so that monks come out on top. From a utility point of view, that is expected, because ranged monks don't have trapping (rogue) or CC (mechanic/DWS) or healing (ranger) which are common ranged dps build bases. That means rogue utility levels cost some damage each and ranger utility levels cost more due to healing as well, and it goes without saying that the pure healing and tanking utility classes cost even more dps per level taken.

Third, don't combine sneak attack and proc damage focus builds with low rate of fire focus such as bows, throwing hammers, and throwing axes.

It's not that a build like 13 rogue 6 ranger 1 monk/barb HW+DWS is bad. It is very well balanced in terms of burst dps, kiting utility, some CC utility, and some trapping utility, so it makes a well-balanced dungeon clearer, and I consider it a fairly good build, but all that utility costs dps. I noticed your trying to build max dps for high reaper raids, but your build is actually a well-balanced dungeon running utility build, and is kindof like a build I would make for kiting/trapping/dodge tanking/some CC if I built renewal into it and it had half as many buttons to hit. If it didn't have all this utility and was pure dps, it would suck more in dungeons, and wouldn't be as good or as popular as it is.

The reason my build does so much more damage on calculation than yours that your initial thought was that it was exploiting is simply because it has 0 burst utility so more dps, fewer rogue/ranger utility levels so more dps, and it is using a high rate of fire weapon with proc damage focus, so more dps synergy. So much more damage that I actually traded some in for renewal utility.

Or, who knows, maybe it is exploiting, and the Devs really intend everyone to use Hunt's End Sniper Shot with a ranger splash and a bow for every single ranged class.

Anyways, the point here is that now that you have done the math, and match to the reasoning behind it, you can just look at a build at a glance and deconstruct it and know how it performs off the reasoning without doing the math. If you ever arrive at the solution where a CC/Burst/Tank/Healer/instakill utility character is top dps, you've missed something. They pay a balance premium of dps for that utility. Going back to snowballs, 12 rogue 6 ranger trapping/ccing/bursting bow build never had a chance in hell of being a top dps ranged dps build, and now that you have the reasoning behind why and how the game is balanced, you should be able to just glance at builds and see things like this, as well as understand how to construct those max dps builds you are looking for.

Scaling down from raids to quests works reasonably well. The same can't be said for builds focused on quests scaling up to raids.

So as per above, your bow build isn't a high reaper raid build, which is why it scales down to dungeons well with utility. But let's look at a max pure dps R10 build for high reaper raiding where it is assumed all utility is taken care of. One of the more popular of such builds is Strimtom's R10 Monk.

A melee monk is not a pure dps build. It has available to it both instant kills (EiN/QP), a dozen different stuns for crowd control, healing (healing hands + FoL), and tankyness (PRR in Shintao + Incorporeal in NiS + dodge (ocean stance + base + enhancements)). But Strimtom's build doesn't have devotion items to power the healing utility, doesn't have a tank utility setup for swapping to a tank when needed in dungeons, and also isn't set up for QP utility instant kills, which can hit 140+ DC on live and be no-fail on anything with far less than maximum investment.

Building like that results in complaint threads about monks, because people are ending up with a reduced dps for utility non-utility character to play with in dungeons. The 0 DPS DC caster's had the same complaints of a lack of dps utility. If you ignore all the utility of a utility character, you are going to feel like you are playing only part of a character in dungeons and be unhappy with the performance, and chances are, you won't know why because you followed an "expert" R10 guide. Well, now you will.

In contrast to that monk above, I took a melee rogue which also has some tankyness utility, and pumped it up evenly in terms of dps and utility (tanking/healing/CC). I am very happy with my rogue both solo and in PUG dungeons, and in PUG and solo raids. At all times it feels like a complete character.