U52: Three repeater builds with damage calcs

[Carpone]

Light Repeater Gnome Artificer 20

Heavy Repeater Warforged Artificer 20

Heavy Repeater Halfling Artificer 13/Fighter 6/Rogue 1

Damage comparison

The four different modes are:

Epic - All boosts including epic moment
Full - All boosts except epic moment
Partial - Endless Fusillade
None - Just auto attacking

The damage summary does not reflect personal debuffs, like Fetters of Unreality on Stickerclick. So in a vacuum the heavy repeater comes out ahead damage-wise as you'd expect.

It might be a surprise to some, but Crusade is the highest damage epic strike when compared against Hunt's End and Shadowstrike.

The DCs with the light repeater build are consistent enough to land Prismatic Strike on bosses (-25% less damage done) which is vital to keeping tanks alive. It's a tactic we've used before in our high skull raid completions. Tactical Detonation and Overcooling on trash is super useful.

[Jaysun]

Hey Carpone. How does this compare to your max bow damage horizon build? I know they added extended clip but not sure how far ahead or behind your max build? Be good to see the comparison.

Just for personal satisfaction, I am curious on your thoughts of an inquisitor FVS build like strimtom has..and it's damage ceiling. I plan on messing with it this week but not gonna lie, I can do the math you can or see the potential as I havent been endgaming as you have.

[hit_fido]

It might be a surprise to some, but Crusade is the highest damage epic strike when compared against Hunt's End and Shadowstrike.

What is the math and tactical usage here? If the wiki is accurate is looks like Consecration/Crusade yields 4 seconds of +10% damage for all shots every 20 seconds vs Hunt's End +225% damage on one shot every 8 seconds - is Crusade better when solo, and if so is it because you can get enough 4-shot volleys (+doubleshots) out in 4 seconds for the damage bonus to add up, or some other reason?

[Carpone]

Hey Carpone. How does this compare to your max bow damage horizon build?

Bow is about 10% ahead.

I am curious on your thoughts of an inquisitor FVS build like strimtom has..and it's damage ceiling.

I ran inquisitive numbers for the Rogue 17/Arti 2/Fighter 1 split. It's 30% behind the repeaters.

What is the math and tactical usage here? If the wiki is accurate is looks like Consecration/Crusade yields 4 seconds of +10% damage for all shots every 20 seconds

The wiki has a ton of information that's wrong or just absent. Crusade lasts as long as Consecration is up. In a 30-sec damage window, Crusade is up 25/30 seconds.

[hit_fido]

Crusade lasts as long as Consecration is up. In a 30-sec damage window, Crusade is up 25/30 seconds.

Thanks, 25 seconds of +10% damage for all attacks makes the picture much clearer.

[C-Dog]

The wiki has a ton of information that's wrong or just absent.

With as fast as Updates change stuff, and as vast as the different articles are, I don't doubt it.

You can always edit the articles/info you find wrong/missing (even without signing in), pretty easy if the info is simple numbers/text change.

And there are editors who would be happy to help (or just do it), but (for the latter) you'd have to kickstart it by naming/linking the article and providing your argument for what is "correct".

[SouCarioca]

Bow is about 10% ahead.
I ran inquisitive numbers for the Rogue 17/Arti 2/Fighter 1 split. It's 30% behind the repeaters.

Since you state in the sheets that at least one of the builds was not actually tested and is calculated, could you share how you reached this number? Notably shots per second and average damage, or whatever pertinent info you have. I found it very interesting, notably the auto-attack column, but wonder how you measured this without actually trying it out.

[SouCarioca]

Light Repeater Gnome Artificer 20

Heavy Repeater Warforged Artificer 20

Heavy Repeater Halfling Artificer 13/Fighter 6/Rogue 1

Damage comparison

The four different modes are:

Epic - All boosts including epic moment
Full - All boosts except epic moment
Partial - Endless Fusillade
None - Just auto attacking

The damage summary does not reflect personal debuffs, like Fetters of Unreality on Stickerclick. So in a vacuum the heavy repeater comes out ahead damage-wise as you'd expect.

It might be a surprise to some, but Crusade is the highest damage epic strike when compared against Hunt's End and Shadowstrike.

The DCs with the light repeater build are consistent enough to land Prismatic Strike on bosses (-25% less damage done) which is vital to keeping tanks alive. It's a tactic we've used before in our high skull raid completions. Tactical Detonation and Overcooling on trash is super useful.

What am I missing? I looked at the Heavy Repeater Halfling Artificer 13/Fighter 6/Rogue 1 build which is for a repeater, but you state you max out Horizon Walker. Isn't it for bows?

[Carpone]

Since you state in the sheets that at least one of the builds was not actually tested and is calculated, could you share how you reached this number?

I wrote a damage calculator. It's about 3k lines of code and covers most ranged builds.

Notably shots per second and average damage, or whatever pertinent info you have.

Anyone can easily calculate the rate of fire for ranged builds: Buy non-returning ammo, then auto-attack for 1 minute. Do the same for builds with Haste Boost or Endless Fusillade. Average damage is that -- the average damage done from all sources. You can see an example in the build guide where I calculate the raw base weapon damage. Then I factor in things like crit damage, active attacks like Pin, etc.

What am I missing? I looked at the Heavy Repeater Halfling Artificer 13/Fighter 6/Rogue 1 build which is for a repeater, but you state you max out Horizon Walker. Isn't it for bows?

Most of the features in Horizon Walker are restricted to bows. However, Misty Step and Improved Archer's Focus are not and they provide 60 Ranged Power over T5 Battle Engineer.

[PrinceOfAsphodel]

So cool to see Repeaters be good again, at long last. I actually have a question about your calculations. When you get to sneak damage, the bonuses that add dice seem to be in decimal form. My confusion might just be stemming from not understanding how sneak attack damage and sneak attack dice add to the total dps number in comparison to each other, but can you explain where you're pulling the decimals from when it comes to sneak dice?

[SouCarioca]

I wrote a damage calculator. It's about 3k lines of code and covers most ranged builds.

Anyone can easily calculate the rate of fire for ranged builds: Buy non-returning ammo, then auto-attack for 1 minute. Do the same for builds with Haste Boost or Endless Fusillade..

Quite right, and I will do just that, but it is a pity this information is not readily available all the same. Are repeaters that much faster than Inq builds? Or is it simply the Enhancements available for each? That said, your next statement clarifies a lot on what the build's aim is.

Most of the features in Horizon Walker are restricted to bows. However, Misty Step and Improved Archer's Focus are not and they provide 60 Ranged Power over T5 Battle Engineer.

This was of serious interest to me since it showed where this strength was coming from and more importantly: aimed at. 25 stacks of Archer's Focus (instead of the standard 15) provided you stand in place isn't a common reality for me. That said, your meticulousness was informative. Thanks!

[Carpone]

Sneak Attack dice are 1d6, which is an average of 3.5 damage. When you have fractional effects like Ninja Assassin ship guild buff which provides 0.25[W], fractions are inevitable. Fractions remain throughout my calculations until I drop them in the final number presented in the summary.

All damage is averaged to simplify comparisons between builds, and to make these calculations straightforward. Trying to generate then compare Monte Carlo simulations between two builds may be more representative of actual results, but it's also 1-2 orders of magnitude more work to accomplish (see simulationcraft.org for WoW).

Something to note about sneak attack for repeaters: There is no active way to make an immune mob vulnerable to sneak attack damage. You're solely reliant on the Improved Deception effect to apply SA damage. For repeaters, the only build that has Improved Deception is the 13/6/1 split. It's one of the reasons the other two builds use Scion of Air/Water rather than Ethereal Plane. So if you are primarily soloing, don't factor in SA damage. If you're raiding, you can reliably add in SA dice unless the target is inherently immune like the Forgewraith Titan in THTH.

[Carpone]

Quite right, and I will do just that, but it is a pity this information is not readily available all the same. Are repeaters that much faster than Inq builds? Or is it simply the Enhancements available for each? That said, your next statement clarifies a lot on what the build's aim is.

It's all about attack animations. Repeaters have 50 animations per minute, with 4 bolts per animation. Inquisitive has 75 animations per minute, with 2 bolts per animation. Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred increase the number of animations for their duration. When I post a comprehensive ranged build comparison summary in the coming weeks, the rate of fire will be included for each weapon type. Repeaters hold the record for highest attack throughput: 272 bolts per minute when using Endless Fusillade back to back.

The advantage that repeaters and Inquisitive builds have over bow and thrown is the increased number of projectiles to proc effects. For example, bow shoots 76 arrows/min @ BAB 30. Compare that to an auto-attacking repeater which is 200. It makes effects like Stay Frozen more relevant.

Enhancements and gear prop up the efficacy of a combat style. For example, without law dice, Inquisitive would be unplayable. With law dice, it's average at best. To be clear, I'm specifically talking about end-game context. Inquisitive is great for churning through heroic/racial past lives on R1. But at end-game, it's 46% behind the light repeater build.

[Epicsoul]

This was of serious interest to me since it showed where this strength was coming from and more importantly: aimed at. 25 stacks of Archer's Focus (instead of the standard 15) provided you stand in place isn't a common reality for me. That said, your meticulousness was informative. Thanks!

The pure WF Artificer build does not go T5 HW and is comparable damage to the ones that do. HW isn't a requirement to play a good repeater build, just an option.

[SouCarioca]

It's all about attack animations. Repeaters have 50 animations per minute, with 4 bolts per animation. Inquisitive has 75 animations per minute, with 2 bolts per animation. Endless Fusillade/No Holds Barred increase the number of animations for their duration. When I post a comprehensive ranged build comparison summary in the coming weeks, the rate of fire will be included for each weapon type. Repeaters hold the record for highest attack throughput: 272 bolts per minute when using Endless Fusillade back to back.

The advantage that repeaters and Inquisitive builds have over bow and thrown is the increased number of projectiles to proc effects. For example, bow shoots 76 arrows/min @ BAB 30. Compare that to an auto-attacking repeater which is 200. It makes effects like Stay Frozen more relevant.

Enhancements and gear prop up the efficacy of a combat style. For example, without law dice, Inquisitive would be unplayable. With law dice, it's average at best. To be clear, I'm specifically talking about end-game context. Inquisitive is great for churning through heroic/racial past lives on R1. But at end-game, it's 46% behind the light repeater build.

I assume this is taking into account the Inquisitor's path, with +30% Alacrity.

[SouCarioca]

Enhancements and gear prop up the efficacy of a combat style. For example, without law dice, Inquisitive would be unplayable. With law dice, it's average at best. To be clear, I'm specifically talking about end-game context. Inquisitive is great for churning through heroic/racial past lives on R1. But at end-game, it's 46% behind the light repeater build.

Thanks for the detailed speed breakdown. I assume, as mentioned before, that this includes the Inquisitive +30% Alacrity and +10 ranged power. I have a build that takes this and adds 12 levels of Wizard, for a mixture of Sneak dice and Core 4 EK, though I have not done calculations on your level, and my build was designed around Heroic, not endgame, so I have no clue how it would fare in such a situation.

[SpartanKiller13]

Damage comparison

Partial - Endless Fusillade
None - Just auto attacking

The damage summary does not reflect personal debuffs, like Fetters of Unreality on Stickerclick. So in a vacuum the heavy repeater comes out ahead damage-wise as you'd expect.

Am I missing something? Does Endless Fusillade do literally nothing, or is there some other reason why the Partial Boosts and No Boosts rows are the same for all 3 categories?

Thanks for the detailed breakdowns and testing

[Carpone]

I assume this is taking into account the Inquisitor's path, with +30% Alacrity.

Yes. One of the reasons I only model builds at end game is simplicity. Testing out various combinations of Alacrity, BAB, feats and weapon type would be a full time (and boring) job without the devs posting the formula or enabling combat logging.

I have not done calculations on your level, and my build was designed around Heroic, not endgame, so I have no clue how it would fare in such a situation.

Inquisitive in heroic is perfectly fine. It only falls short at end game.

Am I missing something? Does Endless Fusillade do literally nothing, or is there some other reason why the Partial Boosts and No Boosts rows are the same for all 3 categories?

Edit: Fixed. No Boosts was erroneously including Fusillade.

[SouCarioca]

Yes. One of the reasons I only model builds at end game is simplicity. Testing out various combinations of Alacrity, BAB, feats and weapon type would be a full time (and boring) job without the devs posting the formula or enabling combat logging.

So the Alacrity speedup is not counted? It is the main benefit of the T5 inquisitive, together with No Holds Barred, no?

[Carpone]

Yes, the T5 alacrity is reflected in the 75 animations/min.