+3 At and Dmg vs +5 MP vs +3% Dbl Str

[Graceunderpressure]

When choosing filigrees, where do you draw the fine line between these three?

I started gaining the Most Dbl strike I could. Lately I've been focusing on more Melee power but hard to believe and extra 5 beats +3 Attack And Damage.

I know there are some Crazy brainiacs out there, so what say you?

[Artos_Fabril]

I started gaining the Most Dbl strike I could. Lately I've been focusing on more Melee power but hard to believe and extra 5 beats +3 Attack And Damage.

It's harder to figure what the value of 3 attack is, but assuming you're already hitting on a 2, 5MP beats 3 attack and damage when ((100 + current MP)/100) * (current base damage +3) < ((105 + current MP)/100) * (current base damage)

At 100MP, your base damage would have to be > 120 for 5 MP to beat +3 damage
At 200MP, your base damage would have to be > 180 for 5 MP to beat +3 damage
For every addition 100 MP you already have, base damage needs to be 60 higher for 5MP to beat +3 damage

[FuzzyDuck81]

Don't forget to take into account that melee power doesn't just boost the damage of your attacks but a whole load of other class & destiny abilities scale with melee power to various degrees too.

[SpartanKiller13]

When choosing filigrees, where do you draw the fine line between these three?

I started gaining the Most Dbl strike I could. Lately I've been focusing on more Melee power but hard to believe and extra 5 beats +3 Attack And Damage.

I know there are some Crazy brainiacs out there, so what say you?

If you have no Doublestrike it's a 3.0% DPS increase, if you have 97% Doublestrike it's a 1.5% DPS increase; everything in the middle is a progression. I'd guess you probably have in the 50% range, so it's close to a (153/150) = 2.0% DPS increase. Doublestrike caps at 100%, so there's an argument that >70% DS is less valuable assuming you mostly run Reaper and use Reaper Doublestrike boost. I wouldn't expect that to be an issue for you yet though Note that Doublestrike also scales all your procs (like a flaming sword dealing 8d6 on-hit), and can scale your active attacks (like Cleaves can Doublestrike).

For MP, the damage increase is (Current MP + 105)/(Current MP + 100), so with 150 current MP you'd be 255/250 = 2.0% DPS increase for things that scale with 100% MP = base damage and a lot of abilities. Note that some of the fun new stuff scales with 200% MP, so for those specifically it's (Current MP + 55)/(Current MP + 50), so at 150 current MP you'd be 205/200 = 2.5% more damage for those things.

Assuming 50% Doublestrike and 150 MP currently, you'd get ballpark 4% DPS increase from that option which almost certainly makes it the better choice (unless your base damage is 75 or less).

[Graceunderpressure]

Toon is currently 70% dbl Strike and about 150 melee power (or close) Was 76% Dbl but at L30, in order to get the Epic Moment from LD I could not Squeeze the extra +6% Dbl from DC tree.

Reason I'm asking all of this is because I have been using 5 piece Prowess, but thinking Sustained +30 Melee power would Crush the 10 sec of +50 I currently get.

Going to slot 3 Longshadow for sure. Split is between OAM for pure Melee power or SD for Melee power plus 3% Dbl Strike.

[SpartanKiller13]

Toon is currently 70% dbl Strike and about 150 melee power (or close) Was 76% Dbl but at L30, in order to get the Epic Moment from LD I could not Squeeze the extra +6% Dbl from DC tree.

Reason I'm asking all of this is because I have been using 5 piece Prowess, but thinking Sustained +30 Melee power would Crush the 10 sec of +50 I currently get.

Going to slot 3 Longshadow for sure. Split is between OAM for pure Melee power or SD for Melee power plus 3% Dbl Strike.

(173/170)x(255/250) = 3.8%. Math's pretty straightforward lmao.

Assuming you have a MP rare from Prowess you'd be getting 10 standing and 60 boosted from it.

[Graceunderpressure]

It's harder to figure what the value of 3 attack is, but assuming you're already hitting on a 2, 5MP beats 3 attack and damage when ((100 + current MP)/100) * (current base damage +3) < ((105 + current MP)/100) * (current base damage)

At 100MP, your base damage would have to be > 120 for 5 MP to beat +3 damage
At 200MP, your base damage would have to be > 180 for 5 MP to beat +3 damage
For every addition 100 MP you already have, base damage needs to be 60 higher for 5MP to beat +3 damage

Is Base dmg exactly what I see on my swords? Or is there a calculation for it?

[SpartanKiller13]

Is Base dmg exactly what I see on my swords? Or is there a calculation for it?

Weapon damage (dice and enhancement bonus) + ability mod (with relevant multipliers) + feats + gear (deadly, filigree, etc) + enhancements (incl Reaper & ED) + buffs = base damage. That gets multiplied by your Melee Power to produce a base hit, which gets multiplied by your crit profile for an average hit, which gets multiplied by Doublestrike (you'll see the crossed swords icon). This is further multiplied by percentage buffs (such as Relentless Fury or Turn the Tide) and enemy debuffs (helpless, PRR reduction, vulnerable, etc).

With 150 MP you can approximate your base damage pretty easily; go into a quest on Elite (so there's no Reaper damage reduction or party scaling) and hit a non-helpless mob a bit, while copying down the results in your combat log. You're looking for a few non-crit non-doublestrike hits. Afterwards divide the result by 2.5 (to remove MP from the equation) and you're there. EG: if you are hitting a mob for 500 (1500 on crit with x3, 2000 on a 19-20 crit, and if you doublestrike you get 1000/3000/4000 respectively) your base damage would be 500/2.5 = 200. There'll be a range (since dice multipliers), but it's pretty easy to get close to it.

You can use a training dummy on an airship instead, but note that they default to helpless so you'll need to reduce your results commensurately as well (check character sheet for bonus helpless damage, add 25% for base enemy helpless damage). EG: if your stats tab lists 35% bonus helpless damage you'd be dealing (35+25 = 60) = 1.6x as much damage, so you'd take a first number of 800 and divide it by that 1.6 to get a 500 before following the steps from the previous paragraph

Hopefully I didn't forget something

[DrawingGuy]

Prowess lost a lot of its power with U51 due to the fact that 20s boosts are no longer a thing and we lost all of the LD boosts. Though in your math for Prowess, you can't forget the 15MP you get from two 5mp and 5 from set. That plus two additional boosts makes the set worth it for some builds, though for most people I'd suggest kicking it to the curb.

Filigrees to consider:

2x Sucker Punch/One Against Many Rare filigrees: While this requires some raiding for threads, this is a package of +4 STR and +18MP in two filigrees. This is essentially a must for any melee build.

Shattered Defense: 4 piece wins hands down when no other person has the set. 10 PRR/MRR strip is a straight DPS increase that no other set can match. There is also the fact that this set has great filigrees and great bonuses leading up to it. This makes 3 piece almost guaranteed BiS for most melee/ranged, and 4 piece worth it. Due to this, it is indeed often ran, but unless you static run with designated debuffers, I'd still run 4 piece.

Sucker Punch: As you should already be getting 2 piece with the raid filigrees, you can add a single 5 MP Sucker Punch filigree and also get 1d6 SA die, which scale at 150% melee power. At 150 MP, that comes out to ~13 additional damage per hit, of course scaling up as you get more serious numbers. This makes it top choice for a spare filigree slot.

Treachery: Treachery has a golden filigree... -50% threat. If you ever find yourself flipping bosses in raids, this filigree becomes a must. This makes the 5 mp filigree worth 10 for the 2 piece set, and doubling up on MP filigrees like adding the third Sucker Punch.

Long Shadow: 3 piece long shadow can drop you 15 melee power (assuming artifact/weapon mp split), 1 attack/damage, and 14d6 acid proc.

Dreadbringer: If fort bypass is a weak point of your build, this set loads up on bypass while remaining MP focused.


Those filigree considerations will push Prowess out the window for most people. These sets are also the ones that provide the option of artifact + weapon melee power double dipping for 2 piece 15 melee power grabs. Obviously you only have so many artifact slots, so would save that for the sets you don't have a strong alternative filigree to slot for set. You may also want to be double slotting other raid filigrees for utilities based on your build.

[Graceunderpressure]

Prowess lost a lot of its power with U51 due to the fact that 20s boosts are no longer a thing and we lost all of the LD boosts. Though in your math for Prowess, you can't forget the 15MP you get from two 5mp and 5 from set. That plus two additional boosts makes the set worth it for some builds, though for most people I'd suggest kicking it to the curb.

Filigrees to consider:

2x Sucker Punch/One Against Many Rare filigrees: While this requires some raiding for threads, this is a package of +4 STR and +18MP in two filigrees. This is essentially a must for any melee build.

Shattered Defense: 4 piece wins hands down when no other person has the set. 10 PRR/MRR strip is a straight DPS increase that no other set can match. There is also the fact that this set has great filigrees and great bonuses leading up to it. This makes 3 piece almost guaranteed BiS for most melee/ranged, and 4 piece worth it. Due to this, it is indeed often ran, but unless you static run with designated debuffers, I'd still run 4 piece.



Sucker Punch: As you should already be getting 2 piece with the raid filigrees, you can add a single 5 MP Sucker Punch filigree and also get 1d6 SA die, which scale at 150% melee power. At 150 MP, that comes out to ~13 additional damage per hit, of course scaling up as you get more serious numbers. This makes it top choice for a spare filigree slot.

Treachery: Treachery has a golden filigree... -50% threat. If you ever find yourself flipping bosses in raids, this filigree becomes a must. This makes the 5 mp filigree worth 10 for the 2 piece set, and doubling up on MP filigrees like adding the third Sucker Punch.

Long Shadow: 3 piece long shadow can drop you 15 melee power (assuming artifact/weapon mp split), 1 attack/damage, and 14d6 acid proc.

Dreadbringer: If fort bypass is a weak point of your build, this set loads up on bypass while remaining MP focused.


Those filigree considerations will push Prowess out the window for most people. These sets are also the ones that provide the option of artifact + weapon melee power double dipping for 2 piece 15 melee power grabs. Obviously you only have so many artifact slots, so would save that for the sets you don't have a strong alternative filigree to slot for set. You may also want to be double slotting other raid filigrees for utilities based on your build.

This way my thinking almost exactly, except I Don't have any raid filigrees, so am limited to regular/rares for now.

Which brings up my next Q;

I can't remember reading it or not, but is the Rare version of a Filigree considered "different" and thus Stacks for set bonus? Or Not?

[Enderoc]

Please stop...I graduated high school just so I would never have to do math again.
This entire thread is giving me horrible flashbacks...

[Graceunderpressure]

So from everything I'm reading, +5MP and +3% Dbl Str are either or because very close?

+3 Att/ Dam not even in the running.....

Surprising because Dbl Strike adds to Everything, while Melee Power only some things. Regardless of math, I would naturally assume the Dbl Strike would win out.

So what about +1 Strength? With 50 Str, 150 MP and 70 Dbl strike, what effect does that +1 Strength have?

[SpartanKiller13]

So from everything I'm reading, +5MP and +3% Dbl Str are either or because very close?

+3 Att/ Dam not even in the running.....

Surprising because Dbl Strike adds to Everything, while Melee Power only some things. Regardless of math, I would naturally assume the Dbl Strike would win out.

So what about +1 Strength? With 50 Str, 150 MP and 70 Dbl strike, what effect does that +1 Strength have?

Some things scale extra hard with MP though (like Sneak Attack gets 150% MP scaling, a lot of new ED stuff gets 200% MP scaling).

What weapon style are you using? THF with a 2-hander gets 300% stat scaling, but like even so 0.5x3 means adding +1 Str gives +0.5 to-hit and +1.5 to-damage. SWF, TWF, and THF w/1-hander all have different results as well lol.

In general though yes Doublestrike is best, but you're getting a 60% bigger boost to MP and at your numbers it roughly balances out.

[Graceunderpressure]

Some things scale extra hard with MP though (like Sneak Attack gets 150% MP scaling, a lot of new ED stuff gets 200% MP scaling).

What weapon style are you using? THF with a 2-hander gets 300% stat scaling, but like even so 0.5x3 means adding +1 Str gives +0.5 to-hit and +1.5 to-damage. SWF, TWF, and THF w/1-hander all have different results as well lol.

In general though yes Doublestrike is best, but you're getting a 60% bigger boost to MP and at your numbers it roughly balances out.

2WF with Khopeshes at the moment. May switch back to LS's depending on what I farm up.

So in the whole Filigree scheme of things, +1 stat pales in comparo to MP/ Dbl Str/ and what would be next best stat on Filigree not including Debuffs?

+/+ Crit confim and Dam?