Unhappy camper

[krimsonrane]

I have to admit I find myself thinking this every time I see another post about how broken someone's build is. My first thought is always, "How unbelievably fragile and pathetic was your build to begin with if these changes leave it broken and useless?" The reality of most of the posts is much more likely to be, "I designed a character to take advantage of every exploit possible to effortlessly faceroll the game and now my character is much more like the normal character most people are used to playing and I can't handle it." Even with all the power these builds are now missing they are still more powerful than what most of us have been playing with for years. On behalf of everyone who doesn't play meta builds allow me to say, you will be just fine. The game functions just fine without playing OP builds.

and you figured that out for everyone's build today huh?

[DRoark]

No fixes to a decade of issues, including cone/terrain problems, broken filigrees (still), augments in pet gear broken since the revamp, stealth still has a HUGE agro range through walls (even with 80+),
one of the capstone's still broken, spells occasionally firing straight up, HEROIC monk damage still nerfed due to the L29 EPIC handwrap fiasco, them adding a "20 seconds of un-nerfed IPS" button is just
insulting, ED toggles should have always been passive (we don't need MORE gdm toggles, I already have FOURTEEN on one character alone), and the list goes on....

The Devs should have taken about a year longer to actually design this. Then waited two more years. Then retired.

[droid327]

B. Giving us a solid OBJECTIVELY CORRECT reason for keeping such a high pain point on character respec

"Incorrect"

No one's build is "bricked", that's hyperbole. The complaints you listed are likewise hyperbole, they're not doing anything that's going to force anyone to have to completely regear or redo their sentient weapons, because gear etc was never tied that closely to the old EDs

There is no pain point. Plat costs on respec are not problematic. There is no reason anyone is going to be forced to completely regear because of ED changes. You've cited no examples to illustrate that claim.

You're demanding an answer to a problem that simply doesnt exist.

[Chai]

There is no pain point.

Time consumption is the pain point. Any objective reader of my posts before replying can cite this.

Plat costs on respec are not problematic.

Any cost for build respec is obsolete, as is the time sync.

There is no reason anyone is going to be forced to completely regear because of ED changes. You've cited no examples to illustrate that claim.

The OP cited an example, and the same three people defending this debacle mocked and derided it. What makes anyone want to cite any other examples with that type of reaction?

You're demanding an answer to a problem that simply doesnt exist.

If it doesn't exist, why did they provide +5 hearts then? Because the devs know it does exist.

They had an opportunity here to provide permanent QoL and instead went with a temporary one-time-use respec which does not mitigate all of the issues caused here. The fact that you are ignoring those issues doesn't mean everyone else can.

The irony surrounding moaning about meta builds this and meta builds that, is most of the people a +5 heart doesn't mitigate the issue for were not playing meta builds. They were playing hybrid caster/melee, tank/caster, healer/ranged, or caster/ranged - non meta viable-but-not-optimal or specific-purpose builds they enjoyed because they were different. Then you and a few others roll up and start telling them to stop chasing the meta and you won't have these issues. You are literally not talking to or about the people who are providing the feedback you seem to want to disagree with, and are clouded by some far older bias against people who chase top performing builds, which has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

[KrisuvialArcana]

Time consumption is the pain point.



If it doesn't exist, why did they provide +5 hearts then? Because the devs know it does exist.

They had an opportunity here to provide permanent QoL and instead went with a temporary one-time-use respec which does not mitigate all of the issues caused here. The fact that you are ignoring those issues doesn't mean everyone else can.

The irony surrounding moaning about meta builds this and meta builds that, is most of the people a +5 heart doesn't mitigate the issue for were not playing meta builds. They were playing hybrid caster/melee, tank/caster, healer/ranged, or caster/ranged - non meta viable-but-not-optimal or specific-purpose builds they enjoyed because they were different. Then you and a few others roll up and start telling them to stop chasing the meta and you won't have these issues. You are literally not talking to or about the people who are providing the feedback you seem to want to disagree with, and are clouded by some far older bias against people who chase top performing builds, which has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

This ...so much this...

I have 13 toons on my main server...I have only 1 legendary toon. One. I never wanted the power...

I'm so lost and overwhelmed. I don't think I can eat this elephant.

[erethizon]

The reality is people played the game as it was designed, then they redesigned the game, while charging people to respec their characters in the new paradigm.

The build the OP was playing was not a META build. It was a non meta hybrid, part caster part melee. Viable but not optimal.

Where is this straw man argument about meta builds coming from? Are people really bitter about power gamers that every time they see something they disagree with on the forums they feel the need to accuse the poster of power gaming and exploiting? Why is this?

Doesn't sound like the "power gamer" and their ubersteez EK hybrid non meta build is the issue here.

Let's go back to heroics. At level 18 each and every supposedly "broken" character played the game a certain way. Whatever that way was, it is still there. There is nothing they can do to ED's to make that level 18 character play differently. So whatever that character was like, when he gets to 20, the ED's just add to it. The old ED's added to it in a certain way and the new ED's add to it in a possibly different way. Unless the build was "broken" at level 18 before, it isn't broken now. The extra backpack of power that ED's add will just be slightly (or possibly significantly) different. All ED's do is add a few buttons to push and increase a few numbers. The core of our characters are set in heroics. If your character could function at level 18 then it can function now, especially with the nerf to monster power. The worst that can happen is a change in what extra buttons you push and the size of the numbers you create.

[Enderoc]

I have to admit I find myself thinking this every time I see another post about how broken someone's build is. My first thought is always, "How unbelievably fragile and pathetic was your build to begin with if these changes leave it broken and useless?" The reality of most of the posts is much more likely to be, "I designed a character to take advantage of every exploit possible to effortlessly faceroll the game and now my character is much more like the normal character most people are used to playing and I can't handle it." Even with all the power these builds are now missing they are still more powerful than what most of us have been playing with for years. On behalf of everyone who doesn't play meta builds allow me to say, you will be just fine. The game functions just fine without playing OP builds.

Bravo...
My sentiment exactly. Early DDO I ran with two clubs of the silver flame through Deleras where people would my DDO you before allowing you to join blaming others for their failures. Gear sucked, you had no clue where your enhancements were headed. Everyone and everything was made of Nerf.
I have little respect for anyone handed a HUGE advantagous and versatile system who is throwing a pity party for themselves right now because "it's complicated"
The only ones that should be crying are the creators of the Character builder apps..and to those people thank you

[Bluenoser]

I'm unconvinced your situation doesn't still fall under "just need to figure out what works now". Energy Vortex, eg, can work better than burst+breath used to combined, especially for a melee playstyle

Try t5 fs, t4 drac, t2 us or pa, dep how many points you have. FS is crazy nice for melee, especially ones like ek that don't have a strong rotation of attacks in their class trees. Your playstyle is still there, you just have to find the right new pegs for your holes

Maybe. What players are going to notice is that what they get from their investment in EPLs has been heavily discounted in the new system, and they may have to do a lot of EPL grinding to get enough points to build back to the playstyle flexibility they had (and more to the point, ENJOYED). My EK-PM Wizard is a good example. Before U51, at lvl 30 I had 5 twist slots (1x tier 4, 2x tier 2, 2 x tier 1) + my ED, and was therefore usually pulling from 5-6 EDs total. Running in FS, that let me get energy burst, Enchant DCs from Magister and Evocation DCs from DI, Dance of Flowers, and a tier 1 for whatever was needed (int, electric sheath for some raids, 10% more sp, etc.). All of that was from "just" 15 EPLs, epic completionist, +3 Tome of Fate.

Under the new system, at lvl 30 I have Tier 5 in one tree (37 in FS, because yes, you'll want all of tier 5 on a spellsword) but only Tier 3 (18 pts) in another, so not enough for tier 4 Energy Vortex. So much for all of those wonderful variety of options--"from 3 trees!!!!"--promised by the forum paladins. I may have a respectable number of Destiny Points on paper, but they are being gobbled up by a lot of fluff, the inflationary gating to get into the tiers, and requiring multiple points to get/unlock something useful (ex: 3 DPs in FS--9 Fate Points in other words, or 27(!!) EPLs--to get 10 universal spell power? Really?).

That's not to deny there are some nice buffs in the new system. As I wasn't running in Magister pre-U51, I have more DCs overall, and the FS epic strike (sonic, 4 sec cooldown scaling 200% off melee power) is very nice dps. If you're on an EK, the +3 spellsword dice (3d12 on my toon) from tier 3 DI is great. Overall, EK still seems viable (not OP, never was), but I am definitely more constrained in my ED choices and unable to afford key off-ED abilities anymore. The jury's very much out on whether what I can afford will offset the losses.

PS: In case a developer reads this, I'll make a plug to add at least melee power to the Magus cores. It seems like an obvious synergy with EK-Pale Master (who else would make use of Magus's damaging neg energy aura that assumes you're surrounded by mobs?), and would make that ED a lot more attractive to EKs. Plus, it would harmonize it with the other hybrid trees like FS, SD, and (for ranged) Shiradi. Thanks!

[krimsonrane]

I wrote the OP after adjusting EDs but before testing. After testing my THF WF pure sorc Ek last night in TOEE2 EH I don't feel any stronger. Actually, I lost abilities and options. Like combining of dragon breath with energy burst. What was two great attacks are now just one. And I've noticed a significant reduction in my elemental melee attacks. Maybe 25% less. I don't know why. Really missing my twists of lay waste. Tried tying in the new dire charge (which I already had as a feat) but could only get that to trip level. So there's another 3 special attacks (CC) that got merged into two. I did see some benefit with what were previously crappy spells like acid blast get a boost sometimes with an extra d6 per level. The extra doing more than the original. On my energy bursts/dragon breath it's unnecessary overkill.

Gotta admit i'm still not a happy camper on that. I've yet to use the free heart to get my feats back and respec. I'm afraid to waste it without really knowing the EDs well enough yet. Not even sure i want to stay an EK at this point.

Next story. I specced my capped assassin. Same story. I lost a lot of options/clickies. And although my assassinate DC went up a little, my melee capabilities are terrible now. Even with a 29 standing dodge, a 45% concealment, and a 20% cover. I did tempest spine EH and the drow beat me like I stole something. They did not care about all that miss chance stuff. With 1100 hps, I was downed in 2 hits easily. So apparently my ability to solo just EH on my assassin is over. And what is up with the "only if you miss me will you the die of phantasmal killer" as a replacement for consume? Why would you do that to us? They don't have a problem hitting me and I'm not a fan of dying AFTER using my best AOE but before killing anything at all. There really is no love in the EDs specifically for assassins. Finally. I want to float around looking like a wraith because...? Someone seems to have this idea that assassins should look/act like ink spots who glide on darkness, flit into and out of the shadow plane, and swallow the shadows of living creatures like M&Ms. Can't an assassin be a military style sniper? Can't one be a mob boss? I know you think they can be bards. An assassin can be a poisoner, a back alley thug, or an infiltrator/spy. Why pigeonhole the entire class into dagger using wraiths from the shadow-plane?

I have a charisma pali and a GXB ranger/rogue/arti mix to test. To be honest I'm not in much of a rush. This new ED change turned me into an unpaid employee. Respec, ETR, TR, every single playable character out of forced necessity. I'm also not in a rush to invest the expected cash to move around augments and remake sentient items due to no fault of my own.

[Maldorin]

I have a charisma pali

If you find a destiny that feels like home let me know because what I'm seeing is, unless I get more points to spend I'm doomed to be a tank.

Of course I spent about 1.1 million platinum Respecing and no longer wish to test things at that price.

[krimsonrane]

If you find a destiny that feels like home let me know because what I'm seeing is, unless I get more points to spend I'm doomed to be a tank.

Of course I spent about 1.1 million platinum Respecing and no longer wish to test things at that price.

That million dollar pricetag is crazy. As to finding a good combo for my char pali... meh. After the assassin debacle I'm not trying to double my dismay so quickly. I might wait a patch or 3.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

This update completely ruined all my builds and from what I've seen ruined all of the interesting things about EPIC game play in ddo - how boring it is now buying all this weak garbage skill for these limited points - things I don't need, that barely work, that scale for nothing - I lost all of my epic toons and now I have to spend my platinum to retool builds that might work - hours worth of my time - I have a family, kids, a job, other things - I want to log in and do a raid not spend 3 weeks trying to figure out something that is passable when last week I had a kickass toon - it is a laugh that people are reporting ' all is well ' it makes me feel like the devs could literally deleted the entire game and just leave a login screen that says 'press here to win' and people would and report 'hey the new ddo is great!'

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I wrote the OP after adjusting EDs but before testing. After testing my THF WF pure sorc Ek last night in TOEE2 EH I don't feel any stronger. Actually, I lost abilities and options. Like combining of dragon breath with energy burst. What was two great attacks are now just one. And I've noticed a significant reduction in my elemental melee attacks. Maybe 25% less. I don't know why. Really missing my twists of lay waste. Tried tying in the new dire charge (which I already had as a feat) but could only get that to trip level. So there's another 3 special attacks (CC) that got merged into two. I did see some benefit with what were previously crappy spells like acid blast get a boost sometimes with an extra d6 per level. The extra doing more than the original. On my energy bursts/dragon breath it's unnecessary overkill.

Gotta admit i'm still not a happy camper on that. I've yet to use the free heart to get my feats back and respec. I'm afraid to waste it without really knowing the EDs well enough yet. Not even sure i want to stay an EK at this point.

Next story. I specced my capped assassin. Same story. I lost a lot of options/clickies. And although my assassinate DC went up a little, my melee capabilities are terrible now. Even with a 29 standing dodge, a 45% concealment, and a 20% cover. I did tempest spine EH and the drow beat me like I stole something. They did not care about all that miss chance stuff. With 1100 hps, I was downed in 2 hits easily. So apparently my ability to solo just EH on my assassin is over. And what is up with the "only if you miss me will you the die of phantasmal killer" as a replacement for consume? Why would you do that to us? They don't have a problem hitting me and I'm not a fan of dying AFTER using my best AOE but before killing anything at all. There really is no love in the EDs specifically for assassins. Finally. I want to float around looking like a wraith because...? Someone seems to have this idea that assassins should look/act like ink spots who glide on darkness, flit into and out of the shadow plane, and swallow the shadows of living creatures like M&Ms. Can't an assassin be a military style sniper? Can't one be a mob boss? I know you think they can be bards. An assassin can be a poisoner, a back alley thug, or an infiltrator/spy. Why pigeonhole the entire class into dagger using wraiths from the shadow-plane?

I have a charisma pali and a GXB ranger/rogue/arti mix to test. To be honest I'm not in much of a rush. This new ED change turned me into an unpaid employee. Respec, ETR, TR, every single playable character out of forced necessity. I'm also not in a rush to invest the expected cash to move around augments and remake sentient items due to no fault of my own.

I love this post - thank you - i feel for you and agree 100%

[Nite_Prowler]

This update completely ruined all my builds and from what I've seen ruined all of the interesting things about EPIC game play in ddo - how boring it is now buying all this weak garbage skill for these limited points - things I don't need, that barely work, that scale for nothing - I lost all of my epic toons and now I have to spend my platinum to retool builds that might work - hours worth of my time - I have a family, kids, a job, other things - I want to log in and do a raid not spend 3 weeks trying to figure out something that is passable when last week I had a kickass toon - it is a laugh that people are reporting ' all is well ' it makes me feel like the devs could literally deleted the entire game and just leave a login screen that says 'press here to win' and people would and report 'hey the new ddo is great!'

I feel your pain.

I only have 3 alts (out of about 16) that are above lvl 20 and from what I've seen so far, trying to figure out how to set them up properly is going to be a real pain in the backside.

I've enjoyed playing the game for several years now, but this new **** show has put me at my wit's end.

I actually get anxious when I attempt to work on one of my Epic alts now ...

I don't play this game to get anxiety attacks.

If some serious change isn't made to resolve this **** show, I don't see myself playing any of my Epic alts for a while.

If this thing isn't sorted and settled soon, I very well may drop my VIP, (something that I've never done since '09) and look for another game to play ;(

[Oxarhamar]

No fixes to a decade of issues, including cone/terrain problems, broken filigrees (still), augments in pet gear broken since the revamp, stealth still has a HUGE agro range through walls (even with 80+),
one of the capstone's still broken, spells occasionally firing straight up, HEROIC monk damage still nerfed due to the L29 EPIC handwrap fiasco, them adding a "20 seconds of un-nerfed IPS" button is just
insulting, ED toggles should have always been passive (we don't need MORE gdm toggles, I already have FOURTEEN on one character alone), and the list goes on....

The Devs should have taken about a year longer to actually design this. Then waited two more years. Then retired.

Thunderforged still has broken effects to add to that

[krimsonrane]

Well, I'm feeling a little better about the EK. That mantle is crazy damage. It made formerly useless spells because of DC or utility worth having. My dancing ball DC of 61ish didn't work on LE. The 63 doesn't work now, but it kills stuff. Any offensive spell i cast is potentially deadly due to my high spellpower. Irresistible dance might be a death spell. Glitter-dust can proc for 12k damage. Wow.


My melee still feels lessened but spellcasting is a big compensator now.

[krimsonrane]

Today I respecced my pali and ran that. It took me a whole Sp bar and about 10 minutes to beat one redname displacer beast on LE. A lot of it was due to displacement. Could have sworn I had it in my gear. hmmm

So here's what I'm realizing from running a sorc, a rogue, and a pali. Casters got a massive boost and melee got left way behind. Especially assassins who got nerfed and left behind the worst i think. I still have an GXB user to try.

[Chai]

Let's go back to heroics. At level 18 each and every supposedly "broken" character played the game a certain way. Whatever that way was, it is still there. There is nothing they can do to ED's to make that level 18 character play differently. So whatever that character was like, when he gets to 20, the ED's just add to it. The old ED's added to it in a certain way and the new ED's add to it in a possibly different way. Unless the build was "broken" at level 18 before, it isn't broken now. The extra backpack of power that ED's add will just be slightly (or possibly significantly) different. All ED's do is add a few buttons to push and increase a few numbers. The core of our characters are set in heroics. If your character could function at level 18 then it can function now, especially with the nerf to monster power. The worst that can happen is a change in what extra buttons you push and the size of the numbers you create.

Not true.

EDs could also add an extra dimension your character didnt previously have. Seemingly one dimensional characters in heroics could add hybrid functionality in epics with destinies. The ability to swap entire destinies in seconds in a public area means being able to switch that functionality. Most video game developers have recognized this and capitalized on the QoL of allowing their players to switch their builds, not requiring them to be stuck with "doing the same thing only slightly better" with the presumed justification of "you made these choices so now you're stuck with it."

Keeping a cost on character respec is obsolete. Very few games hang onto this belief that it still needs to be there. The rest moved into the modern era of gaming.

[erethizon]

Not true.

EDs could also add an extra dimension your character didnt previously have. Seemingly one dimensional characters in heroics could add hybrid functionality in epics with destinies. The ability to swap entire destinies in seconds in a public area means being able to switch that functionality. Most video game developers have recognized this and capitalized on the QoL of allowing their players to switch their builds, not requiring them to be stuck with "doing the same thing only slightly better" with the presumed justification of "you made these choices so now you're stuck with it."

Keeping a cost on character respec is obsolete. Very few games hang onto this belief that it still needs to be there. The rest moved into the modern era of gaming.

Personally I am against all plat sinks. If plat needs to be removed from the economy then give people stuff they want to buy with it so they are glad to spend the money. Equipment damage, reaper wings that don't last through TR, and respec costs are all things I would be happy to see removed.

[Bluenoser]

Today I respecced my pali and ran that. It took me a whole Sp bar and about 10 minutes to beat one redname displacer beast on LE. A lot of it was due to displacement. Could have sworn I had it in my gear. hmmm

Given how many things are broken, you probably do and it's just not working at the moment.

With the giant disclaimer that I haven't had a chance to test this out yet, my THF pally took a few tier 5s in LD, with about 13 pts in Crusader for consecration and other buffs and a few in Sentinel for temp hp and to-hit bonuses. Crusader tier 5 would be great for buffing the dps of your whole party (10% more damage for your entire party, even if they're not beside you!), but a lot of the personal dps from Crusader (expanded crit range, strike down, zeal of the righteous, book of war) got removed and not replaced, especially if you don't use a shield. That said, the Tier 5 Law of the Divine adds some nice damage if you take the Embodiment of Law feat. I just seemed overall to get more bang for my buck in LD. I am expecting, however, to have to play a much more action boost-based playstyle with LD than I used to, with old Crusader.

In the alternative, you could put points in FS instead of Crusader or Sentinel--the melee + sonic epic strike is great, and useful for when LD's sunder/trip/stun epic attack is useless (red names or otherwise immune) and you just want dps.

In any case, I feel your pain about the changes and the irritation at having to be SSG's beta tester (with the added insult that we have to pay to respec out of things that WE FOUND don't work). I recommend a DDO holiday until the dust settles, when you might find exploring new options less frustrating, maybe even interesting(?)