Unhappy camper

[krimsonrane]

I've only set my detiny points up for one character so far. My WF EK. I lost a lot of combat ability with this change. To the point that there's no reason to be an EK. Mainly my critical multipliers for melee are nonexistent. Which means I got hit with a buildbreaker.
There are simply not enough points. I did get a few small DC increases. I also lost energy burst from magister then had it tied into my dragonbreath. Meaning two powerful attacks became only one. There's more but I don't even feel like getting into it now.

So what now? I'm expected to TR into something else? What about all my augments/sentient items, and dang SEVEN piece set that I grinded out for this build?

[Valerianus]

i feel bad for you, and for the general game flattening cause ED rework, push to trinity game, really bad for ddo cause it is not grounded on it, less build variety cause there will be "the right" setup for e.g. melee dps and the right setup for this and that and so on, and less adaptability cause no more destiny switch, and less new player friendly builds cause ETRs are more important than ever, but telling the truth, according to the thread title i was expecting a surprise new feature gone bad, like a camper to attach to our mounts.

[Chai]

Those things are pain points on purpose you are expected to buy your way past in the store. The periodic swapping of META ensures there will be enough spending-to-fix-broken-build churn.

The filigree system is especially hilarious with the order of operations needed, and using store bought items to unlock and de-slot everything. In context t oyour case here, most if not all EK players (or any hybrid build players) weren't wanting to play a standard wizard/sorc, which is what the +5 heart would allow turning your character into to salvage having to spending the time to ETR+TR it all the way back up again on something else.

[krimsonrane]

Those things are pain points on purpose you are expected to buy your way past in the store. The periodic swapping of META ensures there will be enough spending-to-fix-broken-build churn.

The filigree system is especially hilarious with the order of operations needed, and using store bought items to unlock and de-slot everything. In context t oyour case here, most if not all EK players (or any hybrid build players) weren't wanting to play a standard wizard/sorc, which is what the +5 heart would allow turning your character into to salvage having to spending the time to ETR+TR it all the way back up again on something else.

All of my gear will need to be changed. Including augments and sentient items. I'm not so sure I want to do that for every character I have.

[droid327]

What melee crit bonuses were there in EDs before that you lost? The only ones were the +1/19-20 ones that are still there

I'm unconvinced your situation doesn't still fall under "just need to figure out what works now". Energy Vortex, eg, can work better than burst+breath used to combined, especially for a melee playstyle

Try t5 fs, t4 drac, t2 us or pa, dep how many points you have. FS is crazy nice for melee, especially ones like ek that don't have a strong rotation of attacks in their class trees. Your playstyle is still there, you just have to find the right new pegs for your holes

[Chai]

What melee crit bonuses were there in EDs before that you lost? The only ones were the +1/19-20 ones that are still there

I'm unconvinced your situation doesn't still fall under "just need to figure out what works now". Energy Vortex, eg, can work better than burst+breath used to combined, especially for a melee playstyle

Try t5 fs, t4 drac, t2 us or pa, dep how many points you have. FS is crazy nice for melee, especially ones like ek that don't have a strong rotation of attacks in their class trees

Entire build/gear/filigree overhauls in a game that makes you pay time/money/both for each step and also has a hilarious inventory issue, are fun.

And by fun, I mean NOT fun.

This is not simply a matter of figuring out what works, its a matter of rebuilding, re-gaining all the XP, re-farming new gear for the new thing that works, then using a five gallon bucket of de-slotters to remove all the filigree, then the gem(s) from the gear, acquiring/using augments in the new gear, etc.

Meanwhile in other games that have had total revamps (gw2 comes to mind) I just open the window and re-do my build, takes about 5 minutes tops. Then I'm back on a map killing mobs and taking their loot.

AKA, I like to spend most/all of my time in games I play, you know, PLAYING the game.

[droid327]

Entire build/gear/filigree overhauls in a game that makes you pay time/money/both for each step and also has a hilarious inventory issue, are fun.

And by fun, I mean NOT fun.

This is not simply a matter of figuring out what works, its a matter of rebuilding, re-gaining all the XP, re-farming new gear for the new thing that works, then using a five gallon bucket of de-slotters to remove all the filigree, then the gem(s) from the gear, acquiring/using augments in the new gear, etc.

Meanwhile in other games that have had total revamps (gw2 comes to mind) I just open the window and re-do my build, takes about 5 minutes tops. Then I'm back on a map killing mobs and taking their loot.

AKA, I like to spend most/all of my time in games I play, you know, PLAYING the game.

Or just find the build that lets you keep your old playstyle, gear, filis, etc.

Nothing in the old system was so specific to one or two ED abilities or combinations thereof that its totally defunct now.

If there's a better meta now that you want to change your build to, that's fine. But that's your choice, not something the game is forcing you into, and you can choose to pay the opportunity costs associated with that migration

[LuckyCuss]

My fire Alchemist is seriously hosed as well. My DPS is down vs monsters and they save way better now against my damage.

I feel your pain mate, I shall long remember this sad day in November.

[Chai]

Or just find the build that lets you keep your old playstyle, gear, filis, etc.

Nothing in the old system was so specific to one or two ED abilities or combinations thereof that its totally defunct now.

If there's a better meta now that you want to change your build to, that's fine. But that's your choice, not something the game is forcing you into, and you can choose to pay the opportunity costs associated with that migration

As previously stated, this not about choice. The update bricked the OPs build, and I literally outlined the on purpose pain points in DDO a player has to overcome in order to get back to where they were pre update.

This is before we discuss how enforcing any costs to respec a build is a 2002 MMO mindset that is obsolete in todays gaming world. Any reason why this exists has already been proven wrong in modern games, and older games which have adapted to modern gaming expectations. Supporting paying the opportunity cost is just blind defense of a 15 year obsolete gaming mechanic at this point.

Nothing in the old system was so specific to one or two ED abilities or combinations thereof that its totally defunct now.

Incorrect.

They literally deleted an entire destiny, as well as many abilities in others, and changed where many other abilities appear to deny using them all in the same build. They also got rid of the ability to swap destinies to fill other roles. choose wisely when rebuilding, as each non-viable choice comes with a respec cost.

This is simply another meta swap to enforce the opportunity cost onto players who wouldn't normally pay it, same as requiring ETRs to max out EDAP. We recognize what it is. There's zero other reason to keep long obsoleted respec limitations in place.

Most/possibly all negative feedback after these revamps and meta swaps goes away if the cost of respec was zero - as it is in most other games. A little QoL goes a long way. Players actually WANT to be excited about figuring out the new builds, but this "respec opportunity cost" (lol srsly) gets in the way of that.

[erethizon]

Entire build/gear/filigree overhauls in a game that makes you pay time/money/both for each step and also has a hilarious inventory issue, are fun.

And by fun, I mean NOT fun.

This is not simply a matter of figuring out what works, its a matter of rebuilding, re-gaining all the XP, re-farming new gear for the new thing that works, then using a five gallon bucket of de-slotters to remove all the filigree, then the gem(s) from the gear, acquiring/using augments in the new gear, etc.

This is why I have only one sentient weapon (still unfinished) and never put augments into anything. I can't be certain I'll keep using the item long enough to justify it so I just play the entire game without augments and much of the time without a sentient weapon. It is unfortunate but the cost to switch things around is too much for me to be willing to use these features so I just pretend they don't exist.

[Triaxx2]

I'm actually quite curious about your build and what's broken, given that I have two very non-standard EK's who both got stronger after the update. Can you give me a short description of your build?

[droid327]

As previously stated, this not about choice. The update bricked the OPs build, and I literally outlined the on purpose pain points in DDO a player has to overcome in order to get back to where they were pre update.

They literally deleted an entire destiny, as well as many abilities in others, and changed where many other abilities appear to deny using them all in the same build. They also got rid of the ability to swap destinies to fill other roles. choose wisely when rebuilding, as each non-viable choice comes with a respec cost.

"Incorrect"

No one's build is "bricked", that's hyperbole. The complaints you listed are likewise hyperbole, they're not doing anything that's going to force anyone to have to completely regear or redo their sentient weapons, because gear etc was never tied that closely to the old EDs

They deleted the "DC Destiny" because it was redundant after they gave equivalent DCs to literally every caster tree, and moved Torrent into the spellbook (at L8, to boot, where pretty much any Arcane can take it without a big tradeoff)

And you kinda defeat your own argument that the old EDs were fundamental to defining your playstyle, defining your gearing strategy, etc., if you used to swap them back and forth anyway.

This is simply another meta swap

Is that a bit of unintentional honesty?

Its not about having to retool to play your build. Its having to retool to chase the new meta.

No one is guaranteed that the current meta they're in will be the meta forever. If you want to play a playstyle, then you can play it now just as you did before, if you find the right build for it in U51. If you want to play the most powerful build there is, then yeah you're going to have to jump from meta to meta as it changes.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I've only set my detiny points up for one character so far. My WF EK. I lost a lot of combat ability with this change. To the point that there's no reason to be an EK. Mainly my critical multipliers for melee are nonexistent. Which means I got hit with a buildbreaker.
There are simply not enough points. I did get a few small DC increases. I also lost energy burst from magister then had it tied into my dragonbreath. Meaning two powerful attacks became only one. There's more but I don't even feel like getting into it now.

So what now? I'm expected to TR into something else? What about all my augments/sentient items, and dang SEVEN piece set that I grinded out for this build?

Have you checked out the DDO store? there's some lovely selections to purchase that will solve the 2nd vacation home issue.

[erethizon]

Is that a bit of unintentional honesty?

Its not about having to retool to play your build. Its having to retool to chase the new meta.

No one is guaranteed that the current meta they're in will be the meta forever. If you want to play a playstyle, then you can play it now just as you did before, if you find the right build for it in U51. If you want to play the most powerful build there is, then yeah you're going to have to jump from meta to meta as it changes.

I have to admit I find myself thinking this every time I see another post about how broken someone's build is. My first thought is always, "How unbelievably fragile and pathetic was your build to begin with if these changes leave it broken and useless?" The reality of most of the posts is much more likely to be, "I designed a character to take advantage of every exploit possible to effortlessly faceroll the game and now my character is much more like the normal character most people are used to playing and I can't handle it." Even with all the power these builds are now missing they are still more powerful than what most of us have been playing with for years. On behalf of everyone who doesn't play meta builds allow me to say, you will be just fine. The game functions just fine without playing OP builds.

[Chai]

"Incorrect"

No one's build is "bricked", that's hyperbole. The complaints you listed are likewise hyperbole, they're not doing anything that's going to force anyone to have to completely regear or redo their sentient weapons, because gear etc was never tied that closely to the old EDs

They deleted the "DC Destiny" because it was redundant after they gave equivalent DCs to literally every caster tree, and moved Torrent into the spellbook (at L8, to boot, where pretty much any Arcane can take it without a big tradeoff)

And you kinda defeat your own argument that the old EDs were fundamental to defining your playstyle, defining your gearing strategy, etc., if you used to swap them back and forth anyway.



Is that a bit of unintentional honesty?

Its not about having to retool to play your build. Its having to retool to chase the new meta.

No one is guaranteed that the current meta they're in will be the meta forever. If you want to play a playstyle, then you can play it now just as you did before, if you find the right build for it in U51. If you want to play the most powerful build there is, then yeah you're going to have to jump from meta to meta as it changes.

Your reply doesnt address anything I posited. All it does is make false personal accusations about my playstyle (a tactic often resorted to when there is no real tangible logic argument, but one still wants to disagree).

There is no hyperbole or meta chasing here. Just eliminate the cost of character respec for everyone regardless of playstyle. Literally zero people would be negatively affected. All players would benefit by eliminating the pain point from figuring out new builds.

In a game where people often and loudly claim figuring out new builds is the thing that separates this game from other games, they had a golden opportunity here to please alot of players with some QoL, but blew it in favor of keeping character respec a significant pain point and barrier to fully enjoying DDO. The mindset of "everyone who doesn't make the same playstyle choices I do must suffer" isn't productive. There can be a win for everyone here if they made the QoL move.

Either:
A. Refrain from the personal arguments about how I play or what I depend on (you couldnt possibly know this anyhow, but you still do it)
-while-
B. Giving us a solid OBJECTIVELY CORRECT reason for keeping such a high pain point on character respec

Or:
C. Concede the debate.

You either have an objective answer for this, or its just ForumDDO™ Schadenfreude and can be dismissed as such. The next quote reply will show us which.

[CrackedIce]

lol.

The objective cost to redo characters due to game updates has always been a lifeline for this game. What is interesting to note is that the pain and frustration to "redo" one's character is totally dependent on the extensiveness of the input as well as the "exput" to get a character modernized.

For me, a casual, that has never taken the time to fully invest in a single character (Zero past lives - no heroic, racial, or epic, reaper xp, sets, filligrees, sentients, etc), when updates screwed my builds enough times, I left the game as I did not have the time nor willpower to play update-catch-up since it was an exercise in futility; I just do not have the bandwidth on the exput side of things to fix my multiclass mutt-builds.

Now (what seems to me) most folks that play this game on a level that can keep up with the meta (updates), but have poured untold amounts of input into their characters, when an update comes around that completely fell-swoops entire playstyles and class builds, changing to a new playstyle/build becomes an even harder fall to handle due to many of the previously desired inputs being incompatible with the new meta.

This game builds it's set pieces on shifting sands; but it has always been those most immersed within those sands devoting their time that pull ahead of the pack and soar because of it.

I find the irony of Standing Stones to be quite the gaffe.

(For what it's worth, I am enjoying the theory building of this new epic world we now live in.

However, I am hesitant to see how these trees are versatile as true choice appears to be very limited and even more so as you progress towards tier 5 - 30 points is too high cost of entry - Tiers 1 - 4 are practically filled removing the façade of customization completely as well as taking away opportunity to truly enter other trees. Should be 0 - 5 - 10 - 15 - 20 instead of 0 - 5 - 10 - 20 - 30. Heroic trees have more options, so being forced to spend 30 is reasonable as you are still forced to make hard choices to get to 30. In epics, not only are you not able to make hard decisions on your way to 30, you are forced to make bad choices just so you can get to 30...)

[Chai]

I have to admit I find myself thinking this every time I see another post about how broken someone's build is. My first thought is always, "How unbelievably fragile and pathetic was your build to begin with if these changes leave it broken and useless?" The reality of most of the posts is much more likely to be, "I designed a character to take advantage of every exploit possible to effortlessly faceroll the game and now my character is much more like the normal character most people are used to playing and I can't handle it." Even with all the power these builds are now missing they are still more powerful than what most of us have been playing with for years. On behalf of everyone who doesn't play meta builds allow me to say, you will be just fine. The game functions just fine without playing OP builds.

The reality is people played the game as it was designed, then they redesigned the game, while charging people to respec their characters in the new paradigm.

The build the OP was playing was not a META build. It was a non meta hybrid, part caster part melee. Viable but not optimal.

Where is this straw man argument about meta builds coming from? Are people really bitter about power gamers that every time they see something they disagree with on the forums they feel the need to accuse the poster of power gaming and exploiting? Why is this?

Doesn't sound like the "power gamer" and their ubersteez EK hybrid non meta build is the issue here.

[jskinner937]

The reality is people played the game as it was designed, then they redesigned the game, while charging people to respec their characters in the new paradigm.

The build the OP was playing was not a META build. It was a non meta hybrid, part caster part melee. Viable but not optimal.

Where is this straw man argument about meta builds coming from? Are people really bitter about power gamers that every time they see something they disagree with on the forums they feel the need to accuse the poster of power gaming and exploiting? Why is this?

Doesn't sound like the "power gamer" and their ubersteez EK hybrid non meta build is the issue here.

I agree Chai. The non-elitist eventually become the elitist and suddenly have all the answers. This community used to be awesome and helpful. There are a few that still do offer help, but the vast majority here feel the need to comment on threads they oppose, rather than support.

I said this before. I look at a thread as one the OP owns. If I do not agree or do not have something at least positive to contribute, I do not comment.

[Maldorin]

I have to admit I find myself thinking this every time I see another post about how broken someone's build is. My first thought is always, "How unbelievably fragile and pathetic was your build to begin with if these changes leave it broken and useless?" The reality of most of the posts is much more likely to be, "I designed a character to take advantage of every exploit possible to effortlessly faceroll the game and now my character is much more like the normal character most people are used to playing and I can't handle it." Even with all the power these builds are now missing they are still more powerful than what most of us have been playing with for years. On behalf of everyone who doesn't play meta builds allow me to say, you will be just fine. The game functions just fine without playing OP builds.

Here's the thing. I posted about a partly broken build. The ambiguous term here being used is "broken".

I consider broken being I was soloing legendary 4 skulls before and now it's 3 skulls in the quests I tested. Of course that will vary slightly depending on quest. If I can solo 4 skulls as a melee I know I can still contribute and survive in a group in higher skulls. I've been playing since 2010 and know my builds inside and out. So this update gave me more dps I didn't ask for and took away things I liked and or needed. Now shame on me but I'll confess I spent actual money on my toon optimizing him because my friends play high skulls and dying all the time isn't fun. I don't have many past lives, about 30 all together. I don't have many reaper points, I have 26 due to a long break right after reaper came out. Now I fully perceive that I could really use those epic past lives I never did and all that time leveling my off destinies was literally a waste of time and resources.

But meh. I only marginally enjoy this game anyway.

They just gave me all the packs for free and I own all the expansions. I can play for a very long time without spending money. That's probably what I will do.

[Eme]

whomever pushed 'themes' in the development is a secret toxic narcissist out to harm the game, and they have succeeded absolutely