U51 Preview 3: Divine Crusader

[misterski]

The Core 1 is lacking. All you get is the core bonus which every core gives. I suggest that you move the Smite Evil feat and +1 Smite Evil charge to the core and leave the rest of the bonuses in Divine Smite. Maybe that's too much but something needs to go there.

For Consecration and Crusade please allow the healing and fire damage to also scale off of melee power if it's higher. This ED no longer has any spell casting bonuses so it seems backwards to make the Epic Strike and it's upgrades scale solely off spell power.

For the Crusade buff, does it refresh as long as you are standing within Consecration like it does in the live version or is 4 seconds it?

For Bring Down the Wrath, I suggest making it a multiselector with Blessed Strikes and replace Blessed Strikes with something else.

RIP Strike Down

[Kelledren]

The tier 5 abilities are just underwhelming compared to other tier 5s.

The mass rez is great in concept and is cool but only really useful in wipe situations where something already went wrong. There is almost never an incentive to use this epic moment if your raid is going smoothly. I could run 20 raids in a row and never use this epic moment which is a fail. Without adding anything to dps most of the time I will be holding this ability until something goes really wrong in a raid and we need a mass rez. This is a fine ability and if its what you want as the epic moment that's also fine but the tier 5 needs something else that is attractive dps wise to make people actually want to play it.

The law ability is good.

The shield ability is fine but applies to so few builds that it should probably never be picked up. My suggestion here is to make a multiselector and make the other half like 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Its not flashy but it is good.

The plus to crits on 19-20 is good.

The smite gives crusade is weak. It can allow you to maintain a higher crusade buff uptime then with just consecration but not by much. It also requires smites which really kind of sucks unless you a paladin. The + ac and prr is nice but again weak. My suggestion would be to add +1 to hit and damage for every 2 religious feats.

The tier 5 is just underwhelming when playing in good groups where you wont make full use of the epic moment. It just needs some power in it to compete with other tier 5s. Like shadowdancer giving -20 prr/mrr as well as an epic moment that adds dps or LD which has a lot of dps in its tier 5 and a very strong dps epic moment or fury which has better defense, a great offensive ability, and a strong epic moment. Without giving divine crusader something more in tier 5 there will be one very narrow reason to bring divine crusader and that is if your raid is planning a wipe. There is just not enough dps in the tier 5. I think adding 6% doublestrike and the + to hit and damage would be the minimum to make the tree a choice dps wise compared to the other dps focused destinies.

All excellent points on what the tree needs and good ideas. The double strike multi selector would be perfect if not going Vanguard. Honestly I want to try this tree out both ways. But having a goose egg in t5 if not using a shield is a bad feel.
I think in a raid group having a Pally smite and drop Crusades is useful beyond fixing a party wipe. But maybe have this apply to warpriests/warsouls somehow as well for greater support options.

I love the epic moment- but Dragbon hit the nail on the head- you almost will never use this unless running push raids in specific guilds. I would add a dps personal buff so you can use this Epic moment in epic questing/soloing as well. Maybe something like: if not resurrected then you get X buff. Maybe add +1 hit/dmg per X religious lore feats here. This would make it not a full party buff, but buff yourself all your religious school classmates.

[kuzka111]

The tier 5 abilities are just underwhelming compared to other tier 5s.

The mass rez is great in concept and is cool but only really useful in wipe situations where something already went wrong. There is almost never an incentive to use this epic moment if your raid is going smoothly. I could run 20 raids in a row and never use this epic moment which is a fail. Without adding anything to dps most of the time I will be holding this ability until something goes really wrong in a raid and we need a mass rez. This is a fine ability and if its what you want as the epic moment that's also fine but the tier 5 needs something else that is attractive dps wise to make people actually want to play it.

The law ability is good.

The shield ability is fine but applies to so few builds that it should probably never be picked up. My suggestion here is to make a multiselector and make the other half like 6% doublestrike or doubleshot. Its not flashy but it is good.

The plus to crits on 19-20 is good.

The smite gives crusade is weak. It can allow you to maintain a higher crusade buff uptime then with just consecration but not by much. It also requires smites which really kind of sucks unless you a paladin. The + ac and prr is nice but again weak. My suggestion would be to add +1 to hit and damage for every 2 religious feats.

The tier 5 is just underwhelming when playing in good groups where you wont make full use of the epic moment. It just needs some power in it to compete with other tier 5s. Like shadowdancer giving -20 prr/mrr as well as an epic moment that adds dps or LD which has a lot of dps in its tier 5 and a very strong dps epic moment or fury which has better defense, a great offensive ability, and a strong epic moment. Without giving divine crusader something more in tier 5 there will be one very narrow reason to bring divine crusader and that is if your raid is planning a wipe. There is just not enough dps in the tier 5. I think adding 6% doublestrike and the + to hit and damage would be the minimum to make the tree a choice dps wise compared to the other dps focused destinies.

+1

[elvesunited]

Let's change the way we think!
Paladin Vanguard then?
No!
I don't want to use it because of its half-baked Damage and Defense.
There is nothing effective feat to attack or defend against.

I went to Lammania and tried it out.

Hey, One of my alts is a Paladin Vanguard! He's fairly good in a fight.

Will he be using this destiny?
Unlikely!

1) He needs Fury for the Adrenaline for DPS.
2) Vanguards focus on stun not sunder. ( and lesser extent Trip ) so Grandmaster.
3) Tends to move around too much ( including charging ) to use consecration.

--- Likely Epic destiny spread? ----
Fury of the Wild ( Adrenaline + mantle + primal scream )
Grandmaster of flowers ( stun )
Legendary Dreadnought ( dire charge if I can as its been moved to Tier 4 but otherwise just PRR and tactics)

There is some nice stuff for a vanguard in tier 5 Divine Crusader but there is not enough in Tier 1 - 4 for me to get there and I can't justify burning that much AP. Besides with the current level gating system you don't even get Tier 5 until level 30. And I'm not going to use one play style for levels 20-29 and then completely revamp my play style at level 30.


I'd put this epic destiny as the Knight of the Chalice Paladin destiny tree. Rather specific focus. But that's they way the destiny cookie crumbles.

[Kelledren]

Hey, One of my alts is a Paladin Vanguard! He's fairly good in a fight.

Will he be using this destiny?
Unlikely!

1) He needs Fury for the Adrenaline for DPS.
2) Vanguards focus on stun not sunder. ( and lesser extent Trip ) so Grandmaster.
3) Tends to move around too much ( including charging ) to use consecration.

--- Likely Epic destiny spread? ----
Fury of the Wild ( Adrenaline + mantle + primal scream )
Grandmaster of flowers ( stun )
Legendary Dreadnought ( dire charge if I can as its been moved to Tier 4 but otherwise just PRR and tactics)

There is some nice stuff for a vanguard in tier 5 Divine Crusader but there is not enough in Tier 1 - 4 for me to get there and I can't justify burning that much AP. Besides with the current level gating system you don't even get Tier 5 until level 30. And I'm not going to use one play style for levels 20-29 and then completely revamp my play style at level 30.


I'd put this epic destiny as the Knight of the Chalice Paladin destiny tree. Rather specific focus. But that's they way the destiny cookie crumbles.

I hear ya as I’m a Fury junky myself with Pally, but laying down Crusade with every smite adding 10% damage to all attacks (and your party)… is tough to pass up. And you could still use adrenaline epic strike. It will take some time to play all of this and figure out.

[Alphabox]

I'd put this epic destiny as the Knight of the Chalice Paladin destiny tree. Rather specific focus. But that's they way the destiny cookie crumbles.

Knight of the Chalice Paladin does not use this Tree.

Tier 5
Beckon Divinity:
Not dying is more important than what happens after.
Will rarely be used because it's almost impossible to get wiped out.

Law of the Divine:
Is there anyone around you who uses [ Embodiment of Law ]?
No, I don't.

Bring Down Wrath:
All Divine melee except Vanguard will not use shields.

Blessed Blades:
The only conscience.

Mighty Crusade:
Are you happy that your AC goes up just a little bit using the Highend feat?

No need for anything but Blessed Blades.
Blessed Blades can also be replaced by other EDs.

[grudgebear]

Will any changes be made to Crusader?


I see Shadowdancer got huge makeover...

[wax_on_wax_off]

The Epic moment should at least be autocast on death and if it is procced it provides big buffs to all party members living or dead (and maybe a Divine Intervention for living members if they die to bring them back).

Edit: Just to add that I think this destiny is coming together nicely except that I don't think it needs Shield stuff! Send the Shield to Unyielding Sentinel and let the Crusader Crusade and not hide behind a Shield!

[elvesunited]

Knight of the Chalice Paladin does not use this Tree.

Tier 5
Beckon Divinity:
Not dying is more important than what happens after.
Will rarely be used because it's almost impossible to get wiped out.

Law of the Divine:
Is there anyone around you who uses [ Embodiment of Law ]?
No, I don't.

Bring Down Wrath:
All Divine melee except Vanguard will not use shields.

Blessed Blades:
The only conscience.

Mighty Crusade:
Are you happy that your AC goes up just a little bit using the Highend feat?

No need for anything but Blessed Blades.
Blessed Blades can also be replaced by other EDs.

The I don't know who the tree consumer is ....

Paladin Tanks will go to Sentinel and just take the cores from Crusader. ( It is very annoying that the crusader cores have much more defense then the Sentinel cores )

Vanguards focus on stun not sunder and tend to be too mobile for consecration and while Tier 5 has some good stuff for them it's just too much AP to burn to get there.

If this destiny is too weak for Sunder using Chalice paladins then who is left?

[Synthetic]

Knight of the Chalice Paladin does not use this Tree.

Tier 5
Beckon Divinity:
Not dying is more important than what happens after.
Will rarely be used because it's almost impossible to get wiped out.

I've been in plenty of groups that have to cake or pop jibbers blades in reaper. I expect it will be used fairly often.

Law of the Divine:
Is there anyone around you who uses [ Embodiment of Law ]?
No, I don't.

Anyone in the tree should take it. I'd guess base damage for melee is 200 something now after gear change. This gives 35 average damage that scales with 200% MP - so it's about a 10-17% increase in total damage dependent on what crit multipliers work out to on a build - and worth more if you TWF or S+B with shield bash changes.

Bring Down Wrath:
All Divine melee except Vanguard will not use shields.

I expect vanguard will be more popular after this ED comes out. Shield bash builds may also be more popular. There was very little shield support previously and U51 adds a lot of new options.

Mighty Crusade:
Are you happy that your AC goes up just a little bit using the Highend feat?

That's the divine lore benefit the ability actually adds 10% more damage for 4s who wouldn't want it?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Get rid of the Shield stuff (send to it Unyielding Sentinel) and make Divine Crusader focus on being Divine AND Crusading!

The original idea with the Horse was excellent, a horse mounted charge providing a CC break, knockdown/Stun and party buff feels Epic. Perhaps the next attack from all party members could be a smite evil based on the Divine Crusaders Smite and the next attack from the Divine Crusader could be some sort of large AoE super smite.

The other big thing I realised is that there's been great support for Ranged Paladins etc but very little in this tree really synergises with Ranged so giving the tree a viable Ranged Focus makes sense (overall I don't know if Ranged paladins should be a thing given D&D lore but here we are so better to do it properly than only half way).

[Kielbasa]

Any word on if bring down wrath will get some multiselectors for combat styles that don't use shields?

I think its great that shields are getting some much needed love but to keep the t5 mantle viable for a variety of favored weapons we need more options. With the consecration party buff throughout the tree I think it could use a bit more personal oomph. So possibly something such as doubling your law damage versus undead and evil outsiders as well as targets you have smote recently.

[Taraborn]

I was looking at the Update 51 Divine Crusader on the DDO Compendium: https://ddocompendium.com/w/Divine_Crusader_(U51), and it had a few differences than what is listed in this thread. The big one was that Law of the Divine was giving 2d6 per Epic level rather than the 1d6 listed here. I think they got this directly from Lamannia and was wondering which is accurate.

[LurkingVeteran]

This tree is really lacking any kind of active ability. It's a shame Confront Any Foe got reworked. It's also a narrow in general, focusing on shields.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This tree is really lacking any kind of active ability. It's a shame Confront Any Foe got reworked. It's also a narrow in general, focusing on shields.

Exactly, this should be a smiting and party buffing/healing destiny.

Give the Shield stuff to Unyielding Sentinel (while still maintaining the option in US to do a deep offensive shield splash, defensive Shield tank or non-shield tank).

[GramercyRiff]

The cower thing should've been a will save. Unfortunate. Fits thematically, imposes a different save than most melee CC, and fits because the ability is attacking the enemy's mind, not the body. Mental attacks hit will saves. It's not a huge deal of course, but it'd be better for more than one reason.

The mass resurrection stays and it doesn't fit, though it's obviously very powerful and very useful so can't complain too much here.

DC looks ok to me. Might be fun, but doesn't look as enticing as Fury or LD. That's a problem.

[Kielbasa]

DC looks ok to me. Might be fun, but doesn't look as enticing as Fury or LD. That's a problem.

Hopefully there will be further tweaks to some of these destinies before the end of the year. The under utilized destinies such as DC should have gotten a few more shinies to entice people away from the old standard.

[Kelledren]

The cower thing should've been a will save. Unfortunate. Fits thematically, imposes a different save than most melee CC, and fits because the ability is attacking the enemy's mind, not the body. Mental attacks hit will saves. It's not a huge deal of course, but it'd be better for more than one reason.

The mass resurrection stays and it doesn't fit, though it's obviously very powerful and very useful so can't complain too much here.

DC looks ok to me. Might be fun, but doesn't look as enticing as Fury or LD. That's a problem.

I REALLY wish they would have added a dps buff to anyone in the party not resurrected by the epic moment to provide usefulness out side of party wipes and more importantly for solo play. Very cool epic moment- but as mentioned before prob not used much.

Also no T5 multi selector for Bring Down Wrath a huge miss. Could have really defined who would use this tree here. Now instead it’s Pally Vanguards.. maybe.

[axel15810]

I also hope we see further tweaks, because tier 5 is not at all enticing. I guess I will be rebuilding my divine melee character to use another tree's tier 5.

Many comments from a bunch of different players were left over the 3 previews and I would have liked to see some developer engagement here in the Lamannia forums for divine crusader. Unless I missed something, there were no developer comments in any of the 3 preview threads for this destiny (other than the original posts of course).

The devs are not obligated to comment, and maybe they read the feedback but didn't have time to comment. And maybe they read the feedback but disagreed. But multiple concerns, especially regarding the tree's tier 5 were shared by a variety of players and it would have been nice to get more clarity on the dev's design intentions and/or a response to that feedback even if the devs disagreed.