U51 Preview 3: Shadowdancer

[Seph1roth5]

Tier 5s are still at 30, epic strikes still share cooldown, ED resets are still expensive (for a buggy beta system especially), many numbers are depressing and would be **** as a heroic enhancement, there are still multiple ED abilities that require you to rest at a shrine, etc.

[Assassination]

Patch notes just got posted. It is indeed going live in this way on the 3rd. .

Unbelievable! Hot garbage is served.

[elvesunited]

Well it looks like the last notes are what is finally going to be in Shadowdancer.

My Grade : D

The epic strike looks like it could do some decent damage ( if you have the sneak dice to support it ) but this tree cripples itself in the last 2 Tiers. Tier 4 and 5 are incredibly weak. The consuming shadows ability itself deserves special notice for being an outright insult. You multi-selector that with Weird? That's just mean.

[DRoark]

This EDP hamster-wheel is about the worst planning we've ever seen, which is impressive, because we saw FF-14 before the re-release.

You have two choices in DDO now. grind through every ER to get all the points to be "on par" with the HC gamers, or suffer by NOT doing it and get snubbed.
The Raid I was in earlier (frequently runs), already were saying they're going to weed out anyone who isn't EDP-capped for E/R. So yeah, it's already starting.
------------------------------------

May as well tear down the monument in Delera's at this point, DDO just went out a like a Klingon tripping in the shower. No Sto'Vo'Kor for you.

[Gloomfall]

Right now I think my biggest worry is that they are going to want to move past their Epic Destiny overhaul and with that ignore all of the feedback that they have gained up to this point as well as any new potential feedback that we may give them on normal forum channels. If that's the case this may end up being the final version that we see for a fairly long time only for them to move onto the next project they were hoping to work on.

I really hope that I'm being pessimistic here and just seeing the worse case scenario. I hope I'm wrong. More than anything I just want this game to be fun for everyone.

[draven1]

This ED revamp is an official farewell to DDO players.

Welcome to "New World" and "Final Fantasy XIV".

[VinoeWhines]

I thought the points and comparisons to the other Epic Destinies in what we were trying to communicate were clear and fair, in regards to how Shadow Dancer Tree was getting the short straw compared to the other Destinies.


1. Why are we loosing Shadow Manipulation and Shiradi is getting it in Beguile Charm? When they never had it before.
2. Everything Is Nothing came back in the Epic Destiny, why didn't a Consume or a similar ability get put back?
3. Why are other Trees getting 25% Uncapped dodge, when Shadow Dancer was the only Tree with that and got nerfed too low, with no explanation as to any validity that other Trees get that as well.
4. Why was Executioner Strike/Shot removed and no similar ability that should be improved put in it's place, when other Trees got improved versions in Dire Charge, Pin/Otto's Whistler, Heal procs, Damage Procs on any Spell Cast to improve your main Spells?
5. Meld and Dark Imbuement are exclusive to one another when they weren't and never posed a problem with each other.
6. Why was pass through enemies on Tumble removed from Shadow Form?
7. Why was Assassinate +6 separated from Stealthy?
8. What is the logic of throwing a Wand and Scroll Mastery buff in our Tree, that could of been used for a better ability for Stealth/Sneak Attack?
9. Why was Tremor Sense removed, with no explanation, just because we liked it?
10. Why do some Trees get back Ability Stat Modifiers and Shadow Dancer Tree doesn't?
11. Why was the Weird multi-selector that had the debuff of -20PRR/MRR removed when instead it gives now a 0 AC that has to be saved against?
12. Why wasn't Preview 3 given a chance to be ran in Lamania to test this preview?
13. What was the reason to release the Epic Destiny pass so fast, like if cops hit the lights and you threw everything out the window to not be caught with any ramifications?
14. Why weren't our legitimate questions answered and only cherry picked?
15. Not liking certain posters is ok, to ignore them or directly put their ideas in other Trees?
16. Being a professional with integrity means that you deal with those you don't like or agree with but have the maturity to put aside personal disdain and still deliver a fair and decent product regardless of what position one stands in.
17. Many have said this tree is hot garbage and I have refrained from just stating blatant complaints/criticism without giving mature and rational feedback but I have to agree, this Epic Destiny Pass so far for Shadow Dancer IS Hot Garbage, with all due respect and open objectivity.
18. Some have said this Tree was an exercise of non wanting patience and having to wash the dishes chore of a Pass, that it was disgruntledly done.
19. Some questioned and warned about the fact that a split Tree would not work and I was open to the idea, but not at the cost of obliterating Shadow Dancers main features and leaving the Tree with a shell of an identity, with little substance in between Tiers to get to a final Tier that is still weaker than on Live, with more limitations.
20. Alas no abilities in this Tree that reduced ANY Rogue cooldowns in Assassinate, Uncanny Dodge, or completely ignored Mechanic and Thief Acrobat combat Styles in the process.

[Gloomfall]

I thought the points and comparisons to the other Epic Destinies in what we were trying to communicate were clear and fair, in regards to how Shadow Dancer Tree was getting the short straw compared to the other Destinies.


1. Why are we loosing Shadow Manipulation and Shiradi is getting it in Beguile Charm? When they never had it before.
2. Everything Is Nothing came back in the Epic Destiny, why didn't a Consume or a similar ability get put back?
3. Why are other Trees getting 25% Uncapped dodge, when Shadow Dancer was the only Tree with that and got nerfed too low, with no explanation as to any validity that other Trees get that as well.
4. Why was Executioner Strike/Shot removed and no similar ability that should be improved put in it's place, when other Trees got improved versions in Dire Charge, Pin/Otto's Whistler, Heal procs, Damage Procs on any Spell Cast to improve your main Spells?
5. Meld and Dark Imbuement are exclusive to one another when they weren't and never posed a problem with each other.
6. Why was pass through enemies on Tumble removed from Shadow Form?
7. Why was Assassinate +6 separated from Stealthy?
8. What is the logic of throwing a Wand and Scroll Mastery buff in our Tree, that could of been used for a better ability for Stealth/Sneak Attack?
9. Why was Tremor Sense removed, with no explanation, just because we liked it?
10. Why do some Trees get back Ability Stat Modifiers and Shadow Dancer Tree doesn't?
11. Why was the Weird multi-selector that had the debuff of -20PRR/MRR removed when instead it gives now a 0 AC that has to be saved against?
12. Why wasn't Preview 3 given a chance to be ran in Lamania to test this preview?
13. What was the reason to release the Epic Destiny pass so fast, like if cops hit the lights and you threw everything out the window to not be caught with any ramifications?
14. Why weren't our legitimate questions answered and only cherry picked?
15. Not liking certain posters is ok, to ignore them or directly put their ideas in other Trees?
16. Being a professional with integrity means that you deal with those you don't like or agree with but have the maturity to put aside personal disdain and still deliver a fair and decent product regardless of what position one stands in.
17. Many have said this tree is hot garbage and I have refrained from just stating blatant complaints/criticism without giving mature and rational feedback but I have to agree, this Epic Destiny Pass so far for Shadow Dancer IS Hot Garbage, with all due respect and open objectivity.
18. Some have said this Tree was an exercise of non wanting patience and having to wash the dishes chore of a Pass, that it was disgruntledly done.
19. Some questioned and warned about the fact that a split Tree would not work and I was open to the idea, but not at the cost of obliterating Shadow Dancers main features and leaving the Tree with a shell of an identity, with little substance in between Tiers to get to a final Tier that is still weaker than on Live, with more limitations.
20. Alas no abilities in this Tree that reduced ANY Rogue cooldowns in Assassinate, Uncanny Dodge, or completely ignored Mechanic and Thief Acrobat combat Styles in the process.

1. Completely agree here. This was a fairly unique part of what Shadowdancer had previously. I'm sad that not only did we lose it, but it went to Shiradi Champion for some reason.
2. Consume did come back, but in a form that was completely unrecognizable. I think one of my biggest issues is the lack of consistent and controllable instant death mechanics, or at least support for the ones that Rogue already has.
3. Mentioned in my previous comment, but I completely agree. The only real "reliable" instant death or multi-instant death ability we get is Weird, and that only helps the caster side of the tree.
4. Included as a part of the previous statement.. it's almost like this is a major issue.
5. Meld into Darkness and Dark Imbuement should have NEVER become mutually exclusive. Choosing between being able to reliably do damage and being able to survive in melee is a horrendously bad design choice. If it was absolutely necessary for Meld to remain a part of the Epic Strike ability, it should have been merged into both Dark Imbuement AND Paranoia as a part of their effects. Personally though I would MUCH rather it have been built into the Epic Destiny Mantle or as a passive in the destiny somewhere.
6. I really don't get this. It's a quick win for them to have just added it back in. The only thing I could think of is that they might have wanted this to be exclusive to a specific sort of Epic Destiny.. but if I had to choose even a single Destiny to give it to it would have been Shadowdancer. It's terrible that they took this out.
7. I can actually understand Assassinate becoming its own passive, but if that needed to happen it should have had SOMETHING to add to it other than just some Assassinate DC. If they made it give a 50% reduction to the cooldown of Execute for Rogue at Rank 3, or if they added it to the passive for Dance in the Dark giving Sneak Attack Dice AND the Cooldown for Execute in it.. Then it would have made more sense. On its own though Assassinate DC is kind of worthless for us. Especially if we only have a single ability that's going to make any real reasonable use of it now.
8. I actually fully support Wand and Scroll Mastery, especially after they mentioned it would be a stacking bonus. This fully enhances Rogue gameplay if not just for the use of Heal and Restoration Scrolls. This was not a terrible addition. Personally though I would have ALSO added a chance to not consume a scroll or wand charge at Rank 3 on top of this too.
9. The addition of bypassing Tremor Sense enhancing stealth to be able to work on Spiders and Oozes... That was actually something I was extremely in support of. Enhancing stealth options for the Shadowdancer Destiny SHOULD have been a primary goal. It's sad that they weren't able to get it working properly and that they decided just to cut it entirely instead.
10. I personally think that removal of Stat Modifiers from Epic Destinies was a decent change. This is something that should be corrected for any Destiny that still has them.
11. Honestly, I don't even get this one. At this point in the game absolutely NO ONE has issues with accuracy against their targets. Setting AC to 0 is an absolutely useless ability. Now, if it set PRR/MRR to 0 for a reasonable duration, and maybe extended the duration each time it was hit.. I could totally get behind this. As it is though, I won't bother taking this.
12. No idea on this one. Honestly I felt like Lamannia was up very little throughout this entire process. I can recall at least over a week worth of days where I was trying to log in and was completely unable to test any of this. I got maybe a solid day of testing in after the first change.
13. Setting a roadmap, especially once it's been announced is a very important thing in Software Development. If something isn't ready then you CAN push to extend it but it damages the confidence of everyone that depends on these deployments. So that choice is made very rarely and reserved only for situations where there is a change that causes software either not to run or to run in a way that will cause long term damage to it requiring SUBTANTIAL work to correct the effects of. Personally, I wouldn't have pushed for an extension to the development period of this either so I won't blame them on their choice to move ahead with the overhaul. I WOULD however have been open with communication stating that they will be monitoring performance and feedback going forward and will be open to adjusting this further in a future patch soon after release to correct any inconsistencies or errors. And would commit to a "Phase 2" of the overhaul to fine tune abilities now that the core rework is done.
14. Probably due to just being busy with development crunch, especially this close to expected release. Possibly toss in a little wanting to avoid drama from charged emotions before people can actually see what it's like in practice. We can't forget that Lynnabel was pretty much the only one heading up this overhaul of pretty much every epic destiny. Personally, I think this was a bad choice on behalf of management. Probably due to limited time and resources.
15. No real comment on this one.
16. I can mostly agree with this statement, but I won't really say that Lynnabel is guilty of doing this.
17. I can partially agree here. There is DEFINITELY room for improvement here. We will need a part 2 to development of our Epic Destiny. Honestly, I'd push for an overhaul to the Rogue enhancement trees first and then revisit Shadowdancer with fresh eyes so we're not trying to deliver on things that should have been done at the Heroic level. MANY of the things I was wanting to ask for made a lot more sense to happen either on the Assassin, Mechanic, or Thief Acrobat trees.
18. I can't agree with this statement too much. I believe that Lynnabel did the best that they could with the time that they had. Especially as it got closer and closer to the release date and time was running out.
19. I honestly don't mind a split tree with multiselectors for certain abilities, though I do think that if you're attempting to do it that you have to be VERY careful not to lose the core identity of the Epic Destiny. I unfortunately feel that the core identity of Shadowdancer was however lost here, and that it ended up a watered down mess from what it could have or should have been.
20. Yeah... This had me really sad here too. I will PROBABLY end up just going with my staple (and admittedly boring) Inquisitive/Mechanic Rogue focusing on Shiradi Champion as my core destiny. Since it gives a better set of bonuses to skills, damage, and survivability compared to Shadowdancer.

[Gloomfall]

This ED revamp is a official farewell to DDO players.

Welcome to "New World" and "Final Fantasy XIV".

Funny enough, I'm actually a REALLY big fan of Final Fantasy XIV. The initial launch was terrible but the work that they put in to rebuild it only made them that much better of a game in the long run. I still play FFXIV to this day and can honestly say it is one of the best games that I have played. The amount of respect that I have for SquareEnix, Naoki Yoshida, Koji Fox, and the FFXIV team is absurdly high.

New World is hot trash though. Can 110% agree there.

[DYWYPI]

I somehow missed the processing all the text for "From the Shadows" when it was added in; during last minute changes, on the 28 of November. Possibly it was because the wording is rather confusing...

[...] From the Shadows: From-Stealth Active: From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before appearing some distance in front of you. ...

Lynnabel, is that supposed to function only when you are in Sneak and propel you forward a set distance?

It doesn't seem like its beneficial; for stealth play (what a surprise). If you are already (successfully) in stealth [Sneak] you aren't being hassled and damaged by mobs in the first place. You need fluid micro movements and fine control when positioning during Stealth sneak attacks and not really leaps. If you've been "knocked out" of sneak or stealth that's when you need to quickly slip past your opponent... If it functioned outside of Sneak it may have been of more use as an evasive solution.

Instead it seems like it's just some weird prerequisite to trigger some other buff effects for an attack.

[Gloomfall]

Yeah, my general issue with what they've done with Shadowdancer is similar to how they've handled Rogues in the past in several ways. They make you jump through some dumb hoops just to apply bonus damage or effects, and often times it's hardly worth it. If they make it worth it then people cry foul. As it is right now, I'm still not sure how I feel about things but it really seems like Shiradi is the way to go unless you're playing as a Melee Rogue. If you're playing Melee then it might still be worth going Shadowdancer, but it could also be worth going Dreadnaught or more likely Grandmaster of Flowers.

The only way people are going to want to bother jumping through hoops to apply bonus damage or effects is if they're top of the line and nothing else comes close. Otherwise they're going to take the guaranteed options instead. ESPECIALLY if the guaranteed options offer both better reliability AND higher damage.

[DYWYPI]

I certainly would be interested about hearing the Team DDO reasoning behind points: [1], [6], and some of those in the teens, on VinoeWhines list as per [Post #147].

                       ----------
                      /          \
                     /    REST    \
                    /      IN      \
                   /     PEACE      \
                  /                  \
                  |   Shadowdancer   |
                  |   stealth play   |
                  |     support      |
                  |    killed by     |
                  |       U51        |
                  |                  |   
                  |       2021       |
                 *|     *  *  *      | *
        _________)/\\_//(\/(/\)/\//\/|_)_______

Number nine on that list (see above) was likely because it was more of a crazy fantasy idea they had, and they lacked the resources or time. Instead we got avoid triggering Bear traps and Pressure plates, which nobody asked for - directly - and will possibly cause more harm than good for the game. :-/

Some of the changes made, make it look like; sabotaging Solo stealth play within Shadowdancer, was some form of SSG objective. Obviously I don't think it was intentional, but it gives that type of impression in places.

If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. :-)