U51 Preview 3: Shadowdancer

[DYWYPI]

My disability was causing disorientation and affecting my cognition more than usual; last Thursday, 21st, hence the deterioration in my written communication abilities during that day... :-/

To be honest to some extent; it seems like we're on a different page to the Developers' (especially regarding solo stealth aspects). The amount of forum communication via SSG regarding Shadowdancer has been lacking. It's not entirely their fault, and they're buried alive under an avalanche.

I get the impression their aim to release U51 prior to December. Thus it's unlikely they'll change things much from U51 Preview 3. Therefore I doubt they'll be offering mechanical "bug bombs" like the Exploding Constructs. Neither will they be reinstating most of the things that were removed.

Personally I haven't commented much about damage output as I'm not a build enthusiast or loot whore. Albeit I play several competent DEX based Assassins in both Heroic and Epic Settings and do understand solo rogue play and stealth. So when a "pass through enemies' effect" is possibly going to be removed of course I'd be very concerned as it would impact solo stealth play.

Obviously adding the ability to float over Bear traps obviously isn't anything to do with stealth. In fact it's a little worrying it was added - I can see exploits there.

I cannot comment much more on the state "You also are not automatically detected by monsters with Tremor Sense" as it hasn't even materialised. Shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. The majority of solo stealth enthusiasts have already gone - or lost all hope - years ago... due to lack of support. The "feature" doesn't really improve anything, etc. It's one of those cases where it would only sound "cool" in a fantasy Assassin movie. Your heart is in the right place, but your overall understanding appears lacking. Mob aggravation mostly functioned fairly well before U34.

Regarding the "auto reveal" of traps, as a substitute for the planned [Trapfinding] within Core1' I would be STRONGLY opposed.

Note: those enhancements only perform a single search on a localised object at a given timeframe and position. Thus you'd be at a slight disadvantage for large area of traps, if you use those enhancements because it would fail to "reveal" most close traps.

In either case you'll likely want to disable the trap and that 'disable animation' must still be performed regardless of how you reveal the trap. If you are greatly annoyed with having to Search for Traps the odds are you don't really enjoy "trapping" itself. Other than for the XP Bonus or the fact you've removed a harmful obstacle.

Search hardly slows down your Rogue character; it's negligible unless you are in a huge minefield. Or are completely clueless about the dungeon and your Spot skills are inadequate to show a "Trap Warning". Since the feat primarily uses Spot, it would render that "automatic search" also completely useless if your Spot ability was lacking. I'll reiterate "automatic search" requires both high: Spot and Search.

Note: if you as a Rogue are worried about the time it'd take to find a Trap Control panel, within a group and they don't wait... then the odds are the group are either; unhelpful or not bothered if you DON'T even attempt to disarm the trap (assuming your Search DC is adequate).

Personally I don't find it frustrating using Search to find traps and can keep up with sensible PUGs when "trapping" on my Assassins. I also communicate and can warn cooperative people about traps in plenty of time.

[Gloomfall]

Regarding the "auto reveal" of traps, as a substitute for the planned [Trapfinding] within Core1' I would be STRONGLY opposed.

I would be STRONGLY in favor of auto-reveal of traps either baked into the Mechanic Enhancement tree for Rogue at some point planned in the future, or baked into Shadowdancer somewhere. It doesn't need to be baked into the Core 1, but could be one of the rank 3 bonuses for Technician. It's already baked into Shiradi and is available through many other sources such as Inquisitive, Elf, Drow, and Shadar-Kai. While Watchful Eye does require a healthy amount of spot in order to be used correctly (which it shouldn't IMO) the other (newer) options do not.

While it isn't a huge inconvenience for people to search for traps, it is nice to feel like your character is getting much better at it and can simply 'find' many of them automatically.

This has nothing to do with how much you "enjoy trapping" and any sort of gatekeeping saying that any real trap enjoyer will also love to do the search as well is just... weird. People in the game tend to dislike anything that causes them any sort of delay to moving through a quest. Enabling faster searching and handling of traps is a net positive IMO.

[Qeistalan]

Having the freedom to change our minds in response to new information is not a bad thing in the slightest.

To clear some stuff up, the fact that the majority of my Shadowdancer discord discussions have been centered around clarifying questions (such as answering if things in this tree stack, which they do and have always done) is why I didn't feel it was necessary to ensure that those clarifications were presented here without any of the actual context necessary to make those answers make sense. I tend to answer questions as they come so that people can get the answers they need. You're right that none of the stuff I've mentioned on Discord was firm changes or new plans, and that's because as of now, I don't have anything that meets that criteria ready to post. If any of the Discord stuff was actually important (aka something more tangible than answering questions that pertain to the current Preview) it would have been here first, and then copied to Discord later, as with my Grandmaster post.

Now, that being said, the fact that this tree hasn't had a lot of changes since Preview 2 does not mean more changes are not coming. But these things take time. Your feedback has absolutely not been "disgarded" in the slightest, I just want to be sure I'm pitching good changes that actually address feedback instead of jumping on the first or most vocal posters and building a tree to suit them and them alone.

What is the dev-logic behind the mutual exclusivity of Meld vs Dark Imbuement?

[I want an explanation from Lynnabel or other devs. Forum-paly's and dev-shills are not the ones writing code for this short-sighted, narrow-visioned decision.]

[Cantor]

Dark imbuement blinds on a vorpal for 5 secs, with a 60 sec lockout.
Is it really needed to have the lockout? It's an ability on 15sec cooldown that only procs on a vorpal and lasts 5 secs. So not only is it not game breaking but rarely would the lockout be enforced. It seems like clogging up computing power for no reason, why make a new timer to track for no good reason?

[majster67]

But Lynn can you please answer the question that literally all the rogue players are asking, over and over again.

Why have you completely removed ALL of the best shadowdancer abilities:

Consume
Shadow Manipulation
Executioner Strike
Meld into Darkness - nerfed into the ground

Thanks in advance.

I join in with the question.

Also, I still don't understand why the added force spell power and other spell additions - shorter CD, Spell penetration, lower matemagic costs? Everything is cool but why shadowdancer? It looks like you still have a sphere layout in your head that you are giving up and so that caster doesn't have to look far, you throw it into shadowdancer because it borders arcane sphere. All the ones for caster are really good. But they are much more suited to Fatesinger or Magus. Especially the one for force or necromancy. Maybe you can move it there and instead bring back skills that Shadowdancer still has, the ones from before U51.

I also agree that it would be good if Thief Acrobat also found something for himself here. But as I've written elsewhere, I think the LD tree or even Fury is good for him too. However, not only finesse weapon users but also quarterstaves should be able to find something for themselves in shadowdancer, because they are still rogues.

[Dnarth]

I guess my suggestion from the last preview wasn't taken seriously. Really put this on a heap and restart.

[VinoeWhines]

Yeah moving it to the epic moment isn't a good thing with the 5 minute cooldown. The debuff should remain with the multiselctor. If they want to add a third instakill ability that is good but taking away the debuff isn't worth it. The debuff adds much more value to a party.

In that case I am against the change. There are many cases I wouldn't want to wait the 5 minutes and debuffing adds way more to the party than another instakill.

I originally thought you were proposing adding a third option which seemed reasonable, but I don't want to lose the debuff ability to a long timer.

I do think they should add more(really it wouldn't be more since on live we already have it. Why remove it devs? You put back EIN in GMOF tree, so why not the same in SD tree)

How is a debuff adding more to a party, when mobs are getting killed in under 7 or 9 seconds. I'm not against the debuff and think it's valuable, but more to Red Names and Boss fights which are far in between mob fights.

Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, and PKing' mobs is more akin to Weird than debuffing and so I pointed that out as what the Epic Moment is doing is more of a "Weird" effect than the debuff. I want the debuff there, but are you saying you need the debuff to fight "every" mob encounter? I think that would be overkill to fighting mobs in the dungeon. I would rather than it be the "Limb Chopper" effect and now we're talking.
Shadow Mastery sounds more like a "Shadow Debuffer" of course it would be nice to not have that on a 5 minute cooldown and "ADD" a better Epic Moment but if it's between the two of them, a party is going to benefit more to helping clear out the groups of mobs than just debuffing them, where the debuffing is more valuable to a Boss fight or Red Name fight, than just 7 second mob encounters with the party.
Dead mobs are seen more valuable on the ground than weakened mobs that are still posing a threat, as well as less damage done to your gear. Again I would like both abilities but the ability that seems more beneficial to a party I would think is passing by a carcass, than having to still fight one that is wounded.

off topic but I asked last time what character you said you ran with me on, in Sarlona? I am actually enjoying our exchange, because it seems that not many on the Rogue forum often do converse.

[VinoeWhines]

Can 110% get behind you on this. It really feels like a slap to the face for Rogue. It often feels like anything more than a 2-5 level dip into Rogue is just too far for them to really support, and if people really pushed it then 12 levels is the most anyone should ever invest into it. And that feeling only gets more and more prevalent.

I'm fine if they want to lock assassinate to Rogue's normal assassinate ability.. But they could also throw on a cooldown reduction and other enhancements to it through the Shadowdancer tree, or as you suggested just add a level 15+ Rogue requirement to something that actually functions as it should. Weird is a great spell, don't get me wrong. But when you look at the state that casters are in with these new epic destines they're going to be able to apply most metamagic feats without any sort of SP cost at the end just by mixing in some of the higher end magus or exalted abilities. SP pools are already pretty darn large and can easily last through most quests even when spamming spells.

Is the Weird spell going to have a 5 minute cooldown? How about a 2 minute cooldown? Surely it will have a least a 1 minute cooldown...? Oh, it's just going to be cast like a normal spell that just lets casters insta-kill enemies around them without really thinking about it...? Okay...

I don't really feel like it's inappropriate to facilitate death effects for a melee or ranged Rogue Assassin, Monk Ninja, or Ranger Deepwood Stalker.

They should really just do... more. Right now it just feels bad.

I was testing a Shiradi Horizon Walker the other night and was hitting crits of 16k+ with the epic moment popping THOUSANDS of damage every shot and regular death effects every now and then.
Swapped over to a 20 Shadowdancer Assassin Rogue / Vistani Knife Fighter.. and it was just pathetic how much worse the damage was.

On top of this they're still going to be hurting really bad with the meld nerfs being forced to stay in melee in order to do most of their damage. I would regularly get smacked down in 1-3 hits by enemies in high level epic/legendary content.
Casters and Ranged Characters can easily sit back and apply their damage and spell effects without worrying as much about dying.

I Can 120% get behind you on this.

But Lynn can you please answer the question that literally all the rogue players are asking, over and over again.

Why have you completely removed ALL of the best shadowdancer abilities:

Consume
Shadow Manipulation
Executioner Strike
Meld into Darkness - nerfed into the ground

Thanks in advance.

Thanks for posting this question we all are wondering.

Can agree with most of what you have here. I really like the change you made to "Just a Taste", though we'd need some method of gaining our crit multiplier bonus on a roll of 19-20. I've been pushing for better sustain options for Shadowdancer for a LONG time. Unfortunately, having to rely on the clunky behavior of scrolls/wands just isn't feasible for self sustain. It's possible.. just unfun. I do think that scaling 400% with melee/ranged power is just too much though. It should likely scale with 100% or 200%.

Completely agree with the Watchful Eye feat if you already have Trapfinding. This is something that Shiradi already gets out of the gate. Which is a bit confusing to me.

I think that Meld should offer a passive bonus to Dodge and Max Dodge, in addition to a significant reduction to the cooldown time of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge. This will make Rogue and Barbarian a bit more attractive options when it comes to the Shadowdancer playstyle. I know that it will probably annoy me to have to press yet another cooldown ability every 15 seconds, that may also have a shared cooldown with other abilities. So might as well enable the abilities we already have to be better. I would prefer this bonus to dodge be an increase of 10% with the upgrade enhancement raising it to 15%, doubled when wearing Light Armor or Clothing.

I do also think that Improved Shadowform should add another 25% or 50% to sneak speed AND should make us invisible while sneaking as well. Additional bonus if we gain Improved Invisibility for a short duration of maybe 10 seconds when exiting stealth once every minute or so.

I forgot to add it back, but ya I think it could be put in Just a Taste or Tier V: Enhanced Shadowdancer Focus:

Just a Taste: Toggle: Create a Shadowy Aura around you that deals 1d6 Force damage per character level This damage scales with 400%(at 1d6 per character level is pretty small damage, since it's not weapon based and it's on Live already with that formula in Shadow Lance which is still weak damage) of the higher of your melee or ranged power or 100% of Spell Power. Your Shadows heal you over time based off of Heal Amp and Spell Power. +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, and melee weapons

Enhanced Shadowdancer Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs, 1/2/3 Sneak Dice and 5/10/15 Sneak Attack Damage. +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, and melee weapons

Beside what you suggested about adding a shortened cool down to Improved Uncanny Dodge, others have suggested also adding a shortened cool down to Assassinate to maybe half as well.

[VinoeWhines]

I'm hearing allot of people are going to walk out on this game, with all the changes and removals and back and forths, I believe they need more time to iron out these proposals, since many are fed up with all the bait and switches and lack of incentives on new packs, VIP shaftings on needing to buy new packs, on mini updates. And also the level increase thrown to this as well, Headquarters/Investors are starting to pay attention to metrics and overall climate of fans.
I believe in the readjustment of levels, but the stat squish/double strike/shot changes should of been done in stages of half the changes per 3 hotfixes, to better evaluate the outcomes, then Skynet Nuking things and seeing where the remains are at. It's easy to do these things from an Ivory Tower and not feel the effects as those of us down here, who have to live through them.
Not a healthy way to treat Intellectual Property for long term revenue and expansion.
I'm also on the fence of deleting my character as well, and looking over banking statements.
The thing is we as fans have been playing this game for a long time and these changes seem to be or are going to be implemented to fast for feedback and quality of improvement.

[VinoeWhines]

I think maybe the update should be to Epic Feats as a phase one.
Then Fate points and removal of Karma requirements as a phase two.
Epic Destinies can then be tied in to better synchronicities in phase three.
Then Level increase after two bigger update patches to have a clearer scope.

[Gloomfall]

I think Vinoe might be a bit more on the edge than I am. Personally, my intent is to stick around and fight for the game to be better wherever I can. I tend to focus more on martial characters, specifically focused on specialists such as Rogues. They've been in a bad place for a long time.. Mostly due to the speed at which they accomplish the stuff they're built for. People often disagree with me, but players tend to blast through content as quickly as possible and tend to simply jump over/past traps without even detecting them. They do that simply because they've been playing forever and have memorized the positioning of every trap in the quests they frequent and they HATE anything that slows them down.

I'm not saying that this is a terrible playstyle, but I would MUCH prefer traps to be harder to avoid and to be much more deadly. I would also love for Rogues, specifically Mechanics to be the masters of dealing with them. I have no objections to artificers being able to do a similar job at doing it, or people who dip into Rogue levels and juice their Disable Device and Search skills high enough to deal with them.. But someone who has a significant number of levels in Rogue should be among the best of the best when it comes to dealing with traps.

With that said, you can't really adjust the DCs to be that much higher without invalidating the other options to deal with them. You can however build in quality of life enhancements that drastically help dealing with things. For example, I'd LOVE to see Mechanic get an auto-search built into their core abilities or even their T4/T5 enhancements as an option for them to pick up. I'd love for higher level Mechanic core enhancements to grant an increase to the speed that trap boxes are disarmed and locks are picked. They should get ample skill bonuses to be able to find and deal with traps and secret doors as well.

Shadowdancer should also feed into this power fantasy, because it's the closest thing to a specialist/skill based Epic Destiny. I wouldn't mind Watchful Eye or some other auto-search being baked into it at some level, whether it's as an option to pick in the tree similar to Shiradi or as a part of the core abilities. I have little preference there.. but I'd like to see it be an option. I'd also like them to get a stacking increase to the distance that they can detect traps and doors, one that specifically WILL stack with the Mechanic's bonus. If the Mechanic is adjusted as I mentioned I'd like to see above, I could also see a stacking increase to the speed at which traps are disabled and locks are picked, with it being close to instant or even instant if you possess both.

Most importantly however is the stealth empowerment fantasy of Shadowdancer. They are supposed to be THE stealth epic destiny. They hide inside of shadows and slide around the battlefield unseen able to get into places they have no business being. When a class that has a top tier stealth speed enhancement such as Assassin Rogues go into Shadowdancer, they should be able to move at FULL speed in stealth when they take all of the speed enhancements. Because of this, I'd like to see Shadowform give a 25% bonus to stealth speed and Improved Shadowform upgrade that to 75%. It should be an additive bonus that stacks with all other modifiers. Ninjas, Assassins, and Stalkers should be able to enter stealth without having to worry about it slowing them down at all.

I think that Shadowdancer should also become Invisible upon entering stealth. This would allow them to stealth and to truly hide in plain sight. I would even love if they had the ability to retain some level of invisibility upon exiting stealth for a short duration, something like 6-10 seconds of Improved Invisibility when exiting stealth. Improved Invisibility in that way could easily have a cooldown of a minute, just to make it reasonable. Depending on the duration they end up using and how they implement it. I could see an "Improved Invisibility" enhancement that extends the duration and lowers the cooldown that I would GLADLY invest in.

Those are just some of the out of combat improvements I think they should implement. The combat methods and power of the Epic Destiny still leave a lot to be desired, but it isn't in AS bad of a state as the out of combat/utility of it right now for me.

[slarden]

off topic but I asked last time what character you said you ran with me on, in Sarlona? I am actually enjoying our exchange, because it seems that not many on the Rogue forum often do converse.

All my characters start with Rand or Bakk and I lead raids on Thursday and co-lead Friday nights. You've joined us several times. I've also ran with you in Tarzann's raids. I've known Tarzann for over 10 years.

[Assassination]

...

[Lynnabel]

Hi all!

So much has changed with this tree internally that using any sort of color coding would make it impossible to read, so here's the entire tree again with the changes incorporated. I am also replacing the text of the OP with this just to cause as much confusion as possible.

Core 1 (level 20 NOT 21!): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spellpoints, and 5 Force Spellpower and 5 Universal Spellpower.

Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door clickie. 2m cooldown.

Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Tier 1 (req level 20):

• Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 hide and move silently. Rank 3: Hide in Plane Sight feat.
• Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Nightshield permanently
• Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spellpoints, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Assassinate: +2/4/6 Assassinate DCs.
• Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 sneak attack dice.

Tier 2 (req level 20):

• Dance in the Dark: +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice
• Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands.
• Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +30% enhancement bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowstrike (melee or ranged): Epic Strike: +5W, +3 Threat and Mult. Enemy must make a fort save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
  • Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
    
    • Shadow Loss. You no longer cast a shadow. In addition, you have -5 PRR, MRR, and Spell Resistance.
• Lithe: Passive Bonus: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.

Tier 3 (req level 23):

• Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Meld into Darkness: Your Epic Strike now grants you 10% uncapped dodge for 10s
  • Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Paranoia: Your Epic Strike now imbues your spells with Evil energies for 10s: Your Sneak Attack dice are now applied to your harmful spellcasts. Your spells deal 1d6 Untyped damage per Sneak Attack Dice you have (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher). This may only trigger once per spellcast per monster, so multi-hit spells will only have one additional damage value.
• Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy fortification.
• Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Immunity to Energy Drain.
  • Shadowstriker: +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Immunity to Energy Drain.

Tier 4 (req level 26):

• Pierce the Gloom: +1/2/3 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
• From the Shadows: From-Stealth Active: From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic strike if you have them trained.
• Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer mantle now grants you +5/10/15% helplessness damage.
• Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts.
  
  • Darkness: You are no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Linger in the Dark: Meld now grants 15% uncapped dodge. When enemies miss you in combat while Meld is active, they are blinded by shadows with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Long Shadows: Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range.
  • Shadowed Insight: Paranoia now reduces the cost of all of your metamagics by 1 each.

Tier 5 (req level 30):

• Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Destiny Mantle: You float as if you had feather fall, +20 hide and move silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. +10 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Just a Taste: +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, quarterstaves, and finessable melee weapons
• Multiselector:
  
  • Weird: You gain the Weird spell - AoE Phantasmal Killer, scales off Illusion DC. You must be able to cast level 9 spells. Cooldown 60s, SP cost 50 (matches implosion). DC 20 + highest of int/wis/cha + illusion bonuses
  • Consumed by Shadows: From-Sneak Active attack. Enemy must make a will save vs 20 + highest ability score + assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their AC set to 0 for 5 seconds, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
• Enhanced Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
• Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 20 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

As always, we appreciate your feedback. If you have further suggestions, questions, or thoughts, please feel free to post them below! :)

[Pandjed]

First, thanks for the rework. Really hits some nice notes. Here are my favorites:

• Meld now hits a better spot, despite its decrease in dodge, as it's incorporated into something you like to do anyway
• Core 3's ability makes more sense at the end
• Shadow Loss as a low-level debuff is great!
• Grim Precision giving a weapon and a caster-related buff at the same time

Does Caster Level in context to the Epic Strike means character level (plus max caster level due to epic levels) or does it check for actual caster classes? I mean, just because this tree has very little support for casters and weapon users at the same time, it doesn't mean that you may not consider taking some spell versions as a rogue.

[J1NG]

If Meld is now tied to the Epic Strike, does that mean that we need to land it on the attack for the melee version? Or is it activated on triggering either version of the Epic Strike?

J1NG

[Lynnabel]

If Meld is now tied to the Epic Strike, does that mean that we need to land it on the attack for the melee version? Or is it activated on triggering either version of the Epic Strike?

J1NG

It happens when you press the button, target or no. And I have structured these abilities such that the strike upgrade buffs hit you BEFORE the actual attack goes off 100%, so you'll get the on-hit stuff from Imbuement and the on-spell stuff for Paranoia before the damage is dealt. And the from-sneak leap also triggers these as well, although it waits a few milliseconds so its closer to the time you actually get to attack since you can't really effectively fight mid-leap.

[Qeistalan]

Hi all!

So much has changed with this tree internally that using any sort of color coding would make it impossible to read, so here's the entire tree again with the changes incorporated. I am also replacing the text of the OP with this just to cause as much confusion as possible.

Core 1 (level 20 NOT 21!): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spellpoints, and 5 Force Spellpower and 5 Universal Spellpower.

Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door clickie. 2m cooldown.

Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Tier 1 (req level 20):

• Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 hide and move silently. Rank 3: Hide in Plane Sight feat.
• Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Nightshield permanently
• Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spellpoints, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Assassinate: +2/4/6 Assassinate DCs.
• Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 sneak attack dice.

Tier 2 (req level 20):

• Dance in the Dark: +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice
• Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands.
• Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +30% enhancement bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowstrike (melee or ranged): Epic Strike: +5W, +3 Threat and Mult. Enemy must make a fort save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
  • Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
    
    • Shadow Loss. You no longer cast a shadow. In addition, you have -5 PRR, MRR, and Spell Resistance.
• Lithe: Passive Bonus: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.

Tier 3 (req level 23):

• Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Meld into Darkness: Your Epic Strike now grants you 10% uncapped dodge for 10s
  • Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Paranoia: Your Epic Strike now imbues your spells with Evil energies for 10s: Your Sneak Attack dice are now applied to your harmful spellcasts. Your spells deal 1d6 Untyped damage per Sneak Attack Dice you have (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher). This may only trigger once per spellcast per monster, so multi-hit spells will only have one additional damage value.
• Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy fortification.
• Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Immunity to Energy Drain.
  • Shadowstriker: +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Immunity to Energy Drain.

Tier 4 (req level 26):

• Pierce the Gloom: +1/2/3 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
• From the Shadows: From-Stealth Active: From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic strike if you have them trained.
• Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer mantle now grants you +5/10/15% helplessness damage.
• Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts.
  
  • Darkness: You are no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Linger in the Dark: Meld now grants 15% uncapped dodge. When enemies miss you in combat while Meld is active, they are blinded by shadows with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Long Shadows: Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range.
  • Shadowed Insight: Paranoia now reduces the cost of all of your metamagics by 1 each.

Tier 5 (req level 30):

• Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Destiny Mantle: You float as if you had feather fall, +20 hide and move silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. +10 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Just a Taste: +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, quarterstaves, and finessable melee weapons
• Multiselector:
  
  • Weird: You gain the Weird spell - AoE Phantasmal Killer, scales off Illusion DC. You must be able to cast level 9 spells. Cooldown 60s, SP cost 50 (matches implosion). DC 20 + highest of int/wis/cha + illusion bonuses
  • Consumed by Shadows: From-Sneak Active attack. Enemy must make a will save vs 20 + highest ability score + assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their AC set to 0 for 5 seconds, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
• Enhanced Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
• Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 20 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

As always, we appreciate your feedback. If you have further suggestions, questions, or thoughts, please feel free to post them below!

Why are Strikethrough and Offhand Strike Chance removed?

Meld/Dark Imbuement are STILL mutually exclusive, but now Tier3 instead of Tier2 (higher, more points to get), and -in addition- it has a third ability tossed in the multiselector??

Tier5 Multiselector: If you're not a Illusionist or Assassin, this is useless. Make a 3rd option for non-illusionists/non-assassins rogues.

So non-caster rogues who go into Shadowdancer get spell points/power & spell+ DCs? How does that make any sense?

[SocratesBastardSon]

Looks interesting!

Any chance Long Shadows could include a ranged debuff, e.g., a Hamstring effect like Leg Shot or Crippling? That way it takes "longer" for aggro'd mobs to get to you.

[xTethx]

Hi all!

So much has changed with this tree internally that using any sort of color coding would make it impossible to read, so here's the entire tree again with the changes incorporated. I am also replacing the text of the OP with this just to cause as much confusion as possible.

Core 1 (level 20 NOT 21!): Shadow Training: You gain the Magical Training feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, 50 Spellpoints, and 5 Force Spellpower and 5 Universal Spellpower.

Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door clickie. 2m cooldown.

Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Tier 1 (req level 20):

• Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 hide and move silently. Rank 3: Hide in Plane Sight feat.
• Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Nightshield permanently
• Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spellpoints, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Assassinate: +2/4/6 Assassinate DCs.
• Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 sneak attack dice.

Tier 2 (req level 20):

• Dance in the Dark: +1/2/3 Sneak Attack Dice
• Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands.
• Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. Grants +30% enhancement bonus to movement speed, 25% Insight bonus to Sneak Speed, 25% Insight bonus to Cast Run Speed, and grants ghost touch on all attacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowstrike (melee or ranged): Epic Strike: +5W, +3 Threat and Mult. Enemy must make a fort save vs (20 + highest ability score + assassinate) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
  • Nightmare Lance (spell): Epic Strike: Illusion Spell, deals 1d6+6 Force damage per caster level. Enemies must make a will save vs (20 + highest ability score + illusion bonuses + fear bonuses) or be cursed with Shadow Loss. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
    
    • Shadow Loss. You no longer cast a shadow. In addition, you have -5 PRR, MRR, and Spell Resistance.
• Lithe: Passive Bonus: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.

Tier 3 (req level 23):

• Depths of Darkness: While in your Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle, you gain 25% Incorporeality and 25% Concealment.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Meld into Darkness: Your Epic Strike now grants you 10% uncapped dodge for 10s
  • Dark Imbuement: Your Epic Strike now imbues your weapons with Evil energies for 10s: You deal 1d6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Paranoia: Your Epic Strike now imbues your spells with Evil energies for 10s: Your Sneak Attack dice are now applied to your harmful spellcasts. Your spells deal 1d6 Untyped damage per Sneak Attack Dice you have (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher). This may only trigger once per spellcast per monster, so multi-hit spells will only have one additional damage value.
• Grim Precision: +1/2/3 Spell Penetration, and you bypass 5/10/15% enemy fortification.
• Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs
• Multiselector:
  
  • Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. Immunity to Energy Drain.
  • Shadowstriker: +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot. Immunity to Energy Drain.

Tier 4 (req level 26):

• Pierce the Gloom: +1/2/3 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
• From the Shadows: From-Stealth Active: From a stealthed position, dissolve into shadows, before appearing some distance in front of you. This grants you the buffs from your Shadowdancer Epic strike if you have them trained.
• Dark Mercy: Your Shadowdancer mantle now grants you +5/10/15% helplessness damage.
• Bring Darkness: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, applying the Darkness debuff. If you have the feat First Blood, the trigger of First Blood now also applies the Darkness debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts.
  
  • Darkness: You are no longer immune to Sneak Attacks. -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Linger in the Dark: Meld now grants 15% uncapped dodge. When enemies miss you in combat while Meld is active, they are blinded by shadows with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Long Shadows: Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range.
  • Shadowed Insight: Paranoia now reduces the cost of all of your metamagics by 1 each.

Tier 5 (req level 30):

• Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Destiny Mantle: You float as if you had feather fall, +20 hide and move silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. +10 Force/Universal Spellpower
• Just a Taste: +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, quarterstaves, and finessable melee weapons
• Multiselector:
  
  • Weird: You gain the Weird spell - AoE Phantasmal Killer, scales off Illusion DC. You must be able to cast level 9 spells. Cooldown 60s, SP cost 50 (matches implosion). DC 20 + highest of int/wis/cha + illusion bonuses
  • Consumed by Shadows: From-Sneak Active attack. Enemy must make a will save vs 20 + highest ability score + assassinate or be beset by your shadow. Enemies affected have their AC set to 0 for 5 seconds, and when they are hit, they take a stack of Vulnerability. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
• Enhanced Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
• Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects your Epic Strike as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 20 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

As always, we appreciate your feedback. If you have further suggestions, questions, or thoughts, please feel free to post them below!

You will 100% have to play with the cd on the epic strikes; because having perma 25% dodge or being able to imbue attacks permanently with d6 die based off sneak scaling with force spell power is going to result in some pretty skewed builds exceeding others.