U51 Preview 3: Epic Destiny Overview

[Inanout]

One of my alts has all destinies filled out.
At level 30 not epic reincarnated.
So will they will have same power as someone at 30 who just leveled once?
After the change of course.

[Pandjed]

One of my alts has all destinies filled out.
At level 30 not epic reincarnated.
So will they will have same power as someone at 30 who just leveled once?
After the change of course.

Yup. But you get the cosmetic cloak.

[Khimberlhyte]

There are a lot of neat abilities in the trees with epic strikes, but the shared cooldowns make it pointless to grab epic strikes from more than one tree. Between epic strikes and mantles, along with their upgrades, a large percentage of the secondary and tertiary tree real estate is basically useless. I didn't run a lot on lama because it takes me a long time to rebuild a character at 30 to get the right feats, redo enhancements, and set up toolbars, but I was disappointed in epic strikes this time. I'm not sure if there was a change made to cooldowns, but I didn't like the feeling of seeing a lot of long cooldowns most of the time on my main toolbar.

Since the epic strikes gain most of their power from Tier 3 and Tier 4 upgrades, it's not like a Tier 1 epic strike from your tertiary tree is going to dominate endgame play, or be overpowered at any point. Most players are going to want tier 5 in their main tree, so they will have to make trade-offs to even reach Tier 4 in a secondary tree, or Tier 3 in two other trees. The shared cooldowns need to be re-examined unless the design intent is to make people completely ignore secondary epic strikes. As an example, I cannot see why anyone would waste destiny points and toolbar space for a Tier 1 epic strike from another tree that will put their fully upgraded Tier 4 Hunts End on cooldown.

I had an interesting discussion on Reddit with someone who will likely be leaving DDO since U51 is causing their friends to leave. They brought up a few issues, which I would like to generalize.

We were told that ability increases were removed from the trees deliberately, with the preview notes stating "There are no more ability score bonuses in these trees..... This means that any class or build can effectively use any tree without worrying about ability score mismatches." Primal offers +2 to all three casting stats or all three melee stats as a Tier 2 ability. Any build that cares about DCs is now looking at Primal for one sphere. Fatesinger offers another +2 to all stats at Tier 5. So DC casters will be under a lot of pressure to take Tier 5 Fatesinger and Tier 2 Primal, leaving just one sphere open.

We were told that there would be no DC tree like the old magister, and in the Magus preview 3 post, "in the new system one of our major goals was to give far broader options for DC casting, so we distributed that role among a large number of trees". In addition to the +2 stats in Tier 5, Fatesinger offers boosts to all DCs of between +1 and +2 above and beyond what any other tree can offer, depending on whether Inspired Transcendence stacks with Ballad of the Ages.

I guess we'll find out in two weeks how level gating affects the game, particularly how it feels to level a character from 20 to 30. I already dread levels 16 to 20 because it takes forever, and I tend to abandon characters at those levels for weeks or months. If levels 20 to 29 start to feel the same as 16-20, I expect that my time spent playing DDO will take a hit.

[elvesunited]

There are a lot of neat abilities in the trees with epic strikes, but the shared cooldowns make it pointless to grab epic strikes from more than one tree. Between epic strikes and mantles, along with their upgrades, a large percentage of the secondary and tertiary tree real estate is basically useless. I didn't run a lot on lama because it takes me a long time to rebuild a character at 30 to get the right feats, redo enhancements, and set up toolbars, but I was disappointed in epic strikes this time. I'm not sure if there was a change made to cooldowns, but I didn't like the feeling of seeing a lot of long cooldowns most of the time on my main toolbar.

Since the epic strikes gain most of their power from Tier 3 and Tier 4 upgrades, it's not like a Tier 1 epic strike from your tertiary tree is going to dominate endgame play, or be overpowered at any point. Most players are going to want tier 5 in their main tree, so they will have to make trade-offs to even reach Tier 4 in a secondary tree, or Tier 3 in two other trees. The shared cooldowns need to be re-examined unless the design intent is to make people completely ignore secondary epic strikes. As an example, I cannot see why anyone would waste destiny points and toolbar space for a Tier 1 epic strike from another tree that will put their fully upgraded Tier 4 Hunts End on cooldown.

Not always true as not all epic strikes are DPS focused.
For example taking epic strike Dire Charge and epic strike Adrenaline works because Dire Charge is a tactics ability and Adrenaline is a DPS ability.
You can choose which to use based on the situation.

[Certon]

Yup. But you get the cosmetic cloak.

Just a bag-over-the-head-punch-in-the-face by Daybreak.

[Certon]

There are a lot of neat abilities in the trees with epic strikes, but the shared cooldowns make it pointless to grab epic strikes from more than one tree. Between epic strikes and mantles, along with their upgrades, a large percentage of the secondary and tertiary tree real estate is basically useless. I didn't run a lot on lama because it takes me a long time to rebuild a character at 30 to get the right feats, redo enhancements, and set up toolbars, but I was disappointed in epic strikes this time. I'm not sure if there was a change made to cooldowns, but I didn't like the feeling of seeing a lot of long cooldowns most of the time on my main toolbar.

Since the epic strikes gain most of their power from Tier 3 and Tier 4 upgrades, it's not like a Tier 1 epic strike from your tertiary tree is going to dominate endgame play, or be overpowered at any point. Most players are going to want tier 5 in their main tree, so they will have to make trade-offs to even reach Tier 4 in a secondary tree, or Tier 3 in two other trees. The shared cooldowns need to be re-examined unless the design intent is to make people completely ignore secondary epic strikes. As an example, I cannot see why anyone would waste destiny points and toolbar space for a Tier 1 epic strike from another tree that will put their fully upgraded Tier 4 Hunts End on cooldown.

I had an interesting discussion on Reddit with someone who will likely be leaving DDO since U51 is causing their friends to leave. They brought up a few issues, which I would like to generalize.

We were told that ability increases were removed from the trees deliberately, with the preview notes stating "There are no more ability score bonuses in these trees..... This means that any class or build can effectively use any tree without worrying about ability score mismatches." Primal offers +2 to all three casting stats or all three melee stats as a Tier 2 ability. Any build that cares about DCs is now looking at Primal for one sphere. Fatesinger offers another +2 to all stats at Tier 5. So DC casters will be under a lot of pressure to take Tier 5 Fatesinger and Tier 2 Primal, leaving just one sphere open.

We were told that there would be no DC tree like the old magister, and in the Magus preview 3 post, "in the new system one of our major goals was to give far broader options for DC casting, so we distributed that role among a large number of trees". In addition to the +2 stats in Tier 5, Fatesinger offers boosts to all DCs of between +1 and +2 above and beyond what any other tree can offer, depending on whether Inspired Transcendence stacks with Ballad of the Ages.

I guess we'll find out in two weeks how level gating affects the game, particularly how it feels to level a character from 20 to 30. I already dread levels 16 to 20 because it takes forever, and I tend to abandon characters at those levels for weeks or months. If levels 20 to 29 start to feel the same as 16-20, I expect that my time spent playing DDO will take a hit.

I suspect, as the only surviving member of my guild who hasn't quit, that if these changes are implemented in the fashion it looks like they will be implemented, my time and subscription on DDO will finally end.

[Taxidiotis]

Fate Points
There are no more Twists of Fate in this system - as players are able to branch out across up to three trees - but Fate Points still have a use. Every 3 Fate Points you've earned will contribute to 1 Permanent Destiny Point in the Epic Destiny Trees. These points are available at level 20 and can be freely spent between the trees you have slotted. If this is your first time in Epics, you will begin with a bare minimum of 24 Fate Points (from unlocking the 12 currently available trees), which means you'll start level 20 with 8 Permanent Destiny Points. This Permanent Destiny Point system is where we recapture the currently-frontloaded Destiny flow and allows us to offer playstyle-defining elements right out of the gate. The first two tiers of each tree are accessible at level 20, so you'll have quite a bit of choice and power at the start.

Fate Points also grant +2 Hitpoints and +1 Spellpoints each, starting at level 20.

You earn Fate Points in a variety of ways - from the Tomes of Fate currently available, from Epic Past Lives at the ratio of 3 Epic Past Lives to 1 Fate Point (which is an improvement, compared to 4:1 as it is currently), and from unlocking Destinies in the new system. You will no longer receive bonus Fate Points at levels 29 and 30.

The current maximum Fate Points is 55: 36 from unlocking trees + 16 from Epic Past Lives + 3 from a Tome of Fate. This means that you will start with up to 18 Permanent Destiny Points from Fate at level 20 (+1 extra Fate Point).

Epic Reincarnation
Rather than requiring Karma, Epic Reincarnation simply allows a player at level 30+ to take the Epic Past life of your choice and return to level 20.

Epic Completionist, rather than granting a Twist of Fate slot, will instead grant a flat +1 Destiny Action Point. You will also earn additional copies of Epic Completionist every 12 Epic Past Lives you earn thereafter. This means that a player with 24 Epic Past Lives will start with 2 copies of Epic Completionist, and will be able to earn 2 more as they reach the 48 total Epic Past Lives. A player with all 48 will have 4 copies of Epic Completionist, for a total of +4 Permanent Destiny Points.

This means that a player with Epic Completionist, all Epic Past Lives, the Tome of Destiny from Feywild, a +3 Tome of Fate, and all unlocked Destiny Trees, will begin level 20 with 23 Permanent Destiny Points (18 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).

Can you tell the hooked-on-phonics and mathematically challenged in 10 words or less what the absolute maximum number of points are available to spend in the three ED trees will be; assuming lvl 30, all PLs and purchased all the shiny stuff n' thangs?

[Arkat]

Can you tell the hooked-on-phonics and mathematically challenged in 10 words or less what the absolute maximum number of points are available to spend in the three ED trees will be; assuming lvl 30, all PLs and purchased all the shiny stuff n' thangs?

Should be 62.

The toons I transferred to Lamannia during this last preview had 58 ED points. I don't have ANY epic past lives, but I had +3 Tomes of Fate and they were all level 30 with the maximum # of fate points currently get-able on the Live servers. If I did have all the epic past lives, I'd get 4 more Epic Destiny points. Add those 4 to my 58 and that should mean I'd get 62 total ED points.

[Taxidiotis]

Should be 62.

*sigh* I've heard so many numbers; 62, 63, 66 (some jack-wagon even said 72...)

[Arkat]

*sigh* I've heard so many numbers; 62, 63, 66 (some jack-wagon even said 72...)

At least one person told me they got "62 or 63" on Lamannia and when I asked them where they may have gotten the extra point from, they couldn't tell me. I know this person is an uber-completionist with a +3 Tome of Fate, but I'm pretty sure the max is 62. I concede there may be a weird source for an extra point. Perhaps that's a bug.

[Assassination]

This means that a player with Epic Completionist, all Epic Past Lives, the Tome of Destiny from Feywild, a +3 Tome of Fate, and all unlocked Destiny Trees, will begin level 20 with 23 Permanent Destiny Points (18 from fate, 4 from four copies of epic completionist, 1 from tome).

I think it's 23 destiny pts max, plus 44 from leveling= 67 max.

I might be a jack wagon though...

[Taxidiotis]

I think it's 23 destiny pts max, plus 44 from leveling= 67 max.

Great...I'll add "67" to my pool of bingo lottery balls

[Kelledren]

At least one person told me they got "62 or 63" on Lamannia and when I asked them where they may have gotten the extra point from, they couldn't tell me. I know this person is an uber-completionist with a +3 Tome of Fate, but I'm pretty sure the max is 62. I concede there may be a weird source for an extra point. Perhaps that's a bug.

I think the 4 points is just from completionist(x4), but then there is this I copied out of notes above:

“The current maximum Fate Points is 55: 36 from unlocking trees + 16 from Epic Past Lives + 3 from a Tome of Fate. This means that you will start with up to 18 Permanent Destiny Points from Fate at level 20 (+1 extra Fate Point).”

Again these are fate points which then get converted to DPs at 3:1. So I think (but really have no clue) the extra DPs from completionist(x4) are added in addition to this… maybe.

[Kelledren]

I think it's 23 destiny pts max, plus 44 from leveling= 67 max.

I might be a jack wagon though...

Yeah I think this is correct as the above calculations were to turn fate points into permanent destiny points. So from all the epic past lives you should get 9 permanent DPs (4 of which are completionists).

Edit: maybe

[DRoark]

Disclaimer [INDENT][I]Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final..

Lynnabel, we hope that's so, because gating anything at L30, is like making L30 Augs out of L29 gear. You expect people to chain-ER to grind these points,
and then put players in a position to use it for 47 seconds before they head to the "Kill Me" Grove, so they can grind out the new "mandatory" point system.

Solution to reset Slayers to help the grind? Dozens of ER/TRs. That's only 96 trips through Gatesville, U.S.A. ... Yeah, we're not looking forward to this.

[SpookyNoodle]

[B]
Leveling Up in Epics
In order to address the backloaded feat flow and frontloaded enhancement flow, we are meeting in the middle for the new level-up experience for Epics.



As you can see, we are moving the Destiny feat levels to follow directly after the Epic Feat levels. We are making an effort to ensure that every level in Epics gives a player some sort of choice or advancement. We want to smooth out the rate at which a player gains power considerably, which means we will be lowering the minimum levels of the Destiny feats.

Epic and Destiny Feats
Epic Destiny Feats no longer have Sphere requirements, as there are no more spheres. Instead, they will simply have level prerequisites.

The level prerequisites of Destiny Feats have been changed. Whereas before a Destiny Feat would have a prerequisite for levels 26, 28, and 29, they will now follow the new acquisition level flow, moving to min level 22, 25, and 28 respectively.

Several Epic and Destiny Feats have changed in functionality, as will be detailed in a separate post.

Based on that chart, it still seems like things are a little back-loaded in terms of power, though obviously less so than the current system. Maybe move the level 30 destiny feat to 29, so that there's still something special there? And then 30 can have the legendary and last epic feat.

[misterski]

Based on that chart, it still seems like things are a little back-loaded in terms of power, though obviously less so than the current system. Maybe move the level 30 destiny feat to 29, so that there's still something special there? And then 30 can have the legendary and last epic feat.

What level 30 destiny feat? We only get 3 epic destiny feats and the last one is awarded at level 28 in U51 and 29 in live. I guess they could move it back to 29 in U51 but then we'll be complaining about level 28 being empty...

[AebroKomatme]

I copied my main w/ all ePLs and fate tomes over to Lam this week. I wound up with 66 points to spend in the ED trees.

[mikarddo]

Based on that chart, it still seems like things are a little back-loaded in terms of power, though obviously less so than the current system. Maybe move the level 30 destiny feat to 29, so that there's still something special there? And then 30 can have the legendary and last epic feat.

I am curious. How do you see this as less back loaded than the current system?

The "all EDs are auto-filled when you reach 20 the first time" and "You no longer need karma" could be implemented in either system so those are not really system dependant.

In the current system you have full access to T5 + twists from level 20. In the new system you dont get access to T5 until you are level 30. Sure, we will get some feats a bit sooner but nothing that really matters compared to having access to T5 in my opinion.

As far as I can tell the new system is very significantly more back loaded than the current system - so I would be interesting in knowing why you see it so different. The only part that we will get sooner are the small destiny feats - which is nowhere near the value of getting full tree access right from the start.

[slarden]

I think it's 23 destiny pts max, plus 44 from leveling= 67 max.

I might be a jack wagon though...

This matches my math in total, although I was only getting 66 on Lamannia and did not determine where the discrepancy was coming from:

As I understand it:

Destiny Points
44 just for reaching 30 (4 per level from 20 to 30)
4 for all epic past lifes (1 for each set of epic completionist stacking 4 times)
18 for fate points (1/3 of fate points)
1 tome
--------
67 Total

Fate Points
36 for unlocking trees
16 for past lifes (1/3 of epic lifes rounded down)
3 tome
----
55 total divided by 3 and rounded down = 18

In preview 2 I was only getting 62 and epic completionist and destiny tome was definitely missing then. The destiny tome was working on a new character off the boat this time around.