U51 Preview 3: Shiradi Champion

[SpardaX]

3) Missile spammers are using none, as they are not viable anymore

Ok I must be a bit stupid, because personally I'm not really seeing the issue you guys must be seeing. So can someone please explain it to me.
Because the way I see it, yes preview 3 is obviously considerably worse to preview 2 for Missile Spam.

But

Live is: 7% chance to do 10d10 damage + 7% chance to deal 2d100 + 7% chance to deal 1d100.

Throwing a 5 missile spell, on average one of those above will proc. On a full 10 shot chain missile, you'd get on average 2 procs. But a 10~/6~/4~ (or whatever your personal split of missile spammer is, mine is 9/7/4) are only getting 5 or 6 base missiles even in chain missile. With the additional 10 for CM's explosion 2nd effect. So that's about 16 missiles, so on average you're going to proc 3 times. (3.36 times on average if my maths is correct)

Current Lam is: 30% chance to deal 3d100+100 + 30% chance to deal 3d100+180, but only once per cast.

As far as I can tell, base magic missile is still going to come out ahead of live by a large margin. Even chain missile, which as far as I can tell (on average) is the only spell that's going to come out worse, with only getting 2 procs instead of 3 (or heck, I'll be extra generous and say you got the unlikely .36 chance 4th proc), and I'll even be EXTRA generous and say you got 4 procs of 2d100 which is the best case scenario, well you just got 8d100 extra damage. On average, 404 damage.

On Lam, on chain missile, you're getting an almost guaranteed 6d100+280. On average 583. Still more damage than live. Chain missile is, as far as I can tell, on average ahead. And it's the worst case scenario most possible procs. Any other spell that throws less missiles or beams or rays, should be ahead even more.

So as far as I can tell, the only people who would be disappointed by this, are people who tested it in Preview 2. Anyone not watching Lam, who's just playing the game normally when U51 hits, would just see a buff. Which means if they're viable on live right now (Which, they exist, so I assume that means they are.) then they should still be viable after this update hits. Just less powerful than they could have been. And to be honest, i tested it on preview 2. It was silly. I liked it but it was silly.



Note: This is assuming Prism and Stay (F/G) both have a different 0.1s cooldown. If it's a cooldown they both share, that limits procs to 1 per cast fullstop, then yea that'd be bad. But I would assume it's not that.

[Tilomere]

This tree was screwed as soon as it had DCs and could act as the tree for a necro/illusionist PM, which are already so lethal as to top the kill meters without any DPS abilities.

There's no suggestion that will help under the current ED design.

[Pandjed]

I can think of reasons why Stay Good doesn't grant DR-bypass anymore (came with the decision of making it a multiselector with Stay Frosty; alignment bypass in two other trees, etc.), but maybe it should be renamed to "Stay Shiny" instead to avoid further confusion.

Other than that, this tree is basically everything I want on my strange wizard arcane archer build and upgrades about everything I have on life. So at least I'm happy with it. ;D

[droid327]

Now that hunt's end is the epic strike does anyone else get a lot of misfires with it? Usually the misfires happen when trying to pair it with another skill for extra multi or W and even more often when moving. And by misfire I mean phantom cooldowns where the skill never goes off or gets used up it just goes on universal cooldown but seems to be skipped over while the other skill I was trying to use it with gets used up. The attack cue just does not like this ability very much.

This is something I see it doing on Live already. It seems to be happening a lot more on Lama, but the server seems to be chugging more than the Live servers overall

You can just wait a beat between hitting HE and the attack, to make sure HE gets processed and activated first.

[Tilomere]

Nvm.

[Monkey_Archer]

The Shiradi mantle here has to be massively depowered as a base ability to match other mantles, and powering it back up needs to be tied to a 35+ point investment spread out over all 5 tiers and many different abilities.

For example, cut the mantle down to Y% or whatever it needs to match draconic mantle, and then each ability in the tree gives back X% per point spent, so that at a 40 point investment in the tree the mantle is as good as it needs to be.

Essentially...

I could be reading this wrong, but it seems that the design goal of this tree is centered around Prism being a significant source of damage. The problem is that no other mantle in any other destiny has this goal. What do melees get from their mantles? +1[w] situationally? lol.

I'm certainly not opposed to this design goal, but it basically needs to be a tier 5 investment or every caster and ranged build will be forced into prism regardless of which other destiny they prefer. I also thought that part of the overarching desgin goal of these changes was a smoother transition into epic levels. Prism seems to be keeping with the old design paradigm of giving a large power spike at level 20.

[o2t4f]

Ok I must be a bit stupid, because personally I'm not really seeing the issue you guys must be seeing. So can someone please explain it to me.
Because the way I see it, yes preview 3 is obviously considerably worse to preview 2 for Missile Spam.

But

Live is: 7% chance to do 10d10 damage + 7% chance to deal 2d100 + 7% chance to deal 1d100.

Throwing a 5 missile spell, on average one of those above will proc. On a full 10 shot chain missile, you'd get on average 2 procs. But a 10~/6~/4~ (or whatever your personal split of missile spammer is, mine is 9/7/4) are only getting 5 or 6 base missiles even in chain missile. With the additional 10 for CM's explosion 2nd effect. So that's about 16 missiles, so on average you're going to proc 3 times. (3.36 times on average if my maths is correct)

Current Lam is: 30% chance to deal 3d100+100 + 30% chance to deal 3d100+180, but only once per cast.

As far as I can tell, base magic missile is still going to come out ahead of live by a large margin. Even chain missile, which as far as I can tell (on average) is the only spell that's going to come out worse, with only getting 2 procs instead of 3 (or heck, I'll be extra generous and say you got the unlikely .36 chance 4th proc), and I'll even be EXTRA generous and say you got 4 procs of 2d100 which is the best case scenario, well you just got 8d100 extra damage. On average, 404 damage.

On Lam, on chain missile, you're getting an almost guaranteed 6d100+280. On average 583. Still more damage than live. Chain missile is, as far as I can tell, on average ahead. And it's the worst case scenario most possible procs. Any other spell that throws less missiles or beams or rays, should be ahead even more.

So as far as I can tell, the only people who would be disappointed by this, are people who tested it in Preview 2. Anyone not watching Lam, who's just playing the game normally when U51 hits, would just see a buff. Which means if they're viable on live right now (Which, they exist, so I assume that means they are.) then they should still be viable after this update hits. Just less powerful than they could have been. And to be honest, i tested it on preview 2. It was silly. I liked it but it was silly.



Note: This is assuming Prism and Stay (F/G) both have a different 0.1s cooldown. If it's a cooldown they both share, that limits procs to 1 per cast fullstop, then yea that'd be bad. But I would assume it's not that.

I had a feeling it looked better than on live especially for spells that had a very good chance of not proccing anything currently. It's quite common not to get anything from force missiles or scorching ray. The one that is possibly getting a big hit is missiles from wizard past life.
Still, for those missile spammers, what are you getting out of 4 FvS that you don't get from just 2 FvS?

[Zretch]

Essentially...

I could be reading this wrong, but it seems that the design goal of this tree is centered around Prism being a significant source of damage. The problem is that no other mantle in any other destiny has this goal. What do melees get from their mantles? +1[w] situationally? lol.

I'm certainly not opposed to this design goal, but it basically needs to be a tier 5 investment or every caster and ranged build will be forced into prism regardless of which other destiny they prefer. I also thought that part of the overarching desgin goal of these changes was a smoother transition into epic levels. Prism seems to be keeping with the old design paradigm of giving a large power spike at level 20.

Prism isn't the only outlier. The Epic moment in Shiradi seems miles ahead of any other epic moment for raw damage output, accessible only to ranged. Push ranged power as high as you can, full stacks of archer's focus, fusilade/haste boost, and watch the numbers fly. How will this not trivialize raids? You've already had to nerf inquisitives, how do you not see the synergy here? Heck, 400+ ranged power bow builds will be abusing this epic moment as well.

[nicklesmack]

Didn't get a ton of time to play but just some thoughts on this tree

1. hit points went up for my toon by little over 100, that is good. PRR & MRR slightly down
2. it felt like base damage was up, but spike damage was down...like not able to wipe a mob with a big hit not sure if that is global or just my building - also didn't get sneak as was by myself and they were not venomed will have to see how this plays out
3. biggest feel from the run was inability to heal myself. i barely used meld before on this toon, but had it just in case. but healing i had spring and cocoon, plus a cure spell here and there if needed. the new healing spring damage healing just does not make up for the reduced 'upper' limit that we had on live and certainly does not make up for the cocoon we lost. This is definitely going to affect (not in a good way) game play for a lot of toons. spend more time digging out pots and whatnot, relying more on bots uugh.

i liked the variety, and the fact that i didn't need to take every single point in this tree for my dude. i was able to get 11-12 in two other trees to expand capability and up base damage with RP and HP's.

Oh ya the cooldown thing, i could not tell if that meant that the proc's on the secondary IPS shots were triggering or if those were only limited to the first hit. I would like to know the thoughts on whether that is happening or if it just on spells that the multiple proc's not happening....

Still not sure how loss of some pretty reliable CC and potential loss of spike damage is going to play out.

[Monkey_Archer]

Prism isn't the only outlier. The Epic moment in Shiradi seems miles ahead of any other epic moment for raw damage output, accessible only to ranged. Push ranged power as high as you can, full stacks of archer's focus, fusilade/haste boost, and watch the numbers fly. How will this not trivialize raids? You've already had to nerf inquisitives, how do you not see the synergy here? Heck, 400+ ranged power bow builds will be abusing this epic moment as well.

I'd be a fool not to think it could be intentional. DDO's history of balance has been oscilation between ranged being OP and one other build catching up. Monchers ->Bards->Shriadi->Monks->Inquisitive->Wolves->Throwers->THF-> now back to bows i guess?

U51 is looking a lot like U14... but probably without the influx of new players...

[Firebreed]

-- Pin and Whistler arent worth taking...its a button tax, there's already plenty of CC in the tree, and they're too situational.
-- Likewise Charm is more trouble than its worth; make it a Confuse and its a lot more intriguing.
-- Healing Spring and its boosters are a joke - charge based Greater Vigor? For that opportunity cost, even Regenerate is kind of a joke. Needs to be like...Pos Energy Aura, something long-term so that a few charges will actually last you through a quest.
-- Can Pierce Deception grant Doublestrike with the other sources of auto-search too? I know they're not all exactly the same, but the enhancement is still made effectively redundant if you have them.
-- FE: Fey is OK if you're a HW, but its not really great for anyone else. This isnt a problem by itself, but as part of the pattern it becomes more troublesome.

- Whirling Wrists doesnt mention the Incorp in-game...was it removed, or is the tooltip wrong? Doesnt seem to be granting it either...my char sheet just shows 10% incorp from a Ghostly item

This guy speaks truth.

[SpardaX]

I had a feeling it looked better than on live especially for spells that had a very good chance of not proccing anything currently. It's quite common not to get anything from force missiles or scorching ray. The one that is possibly getting a big hit is missiles from wizard past life.
Still, for those missile spammers, what are you getting out of 4 FvS that you don't get from just 2 FvS?

Good Question. It's AP expensive, but what 4 gets you is +3 Force spell caster level.

If you're 9/9/2 your caster level with missiles on both wizard and sorcerer is 9
but if you're 8/8/4 with +3 Force Caster level from Tier 4, then your caster level with missiles on both wizard and sorcerer is 11.

Though now that I've actually played one, I will admit that the extra AP I need to spend to get into tier 4 is expensive, and if I was to LR today (which with this +5 heart actually I can do!) It would look a lot closer to 9/9/2. The 1 extra missile in chain missile to both classes isn't worth the AP. Especially now that Feydark Illusionist is a thing.

And yes, I guess procs off Past life Wizard may come out ahead. But based on the maths I did, I'm pretty sure you'd still have to get VERY lucky on the 2d100 and 1d100 procs at 7% each for that to get ahead. And Past life gives you 10 casts per rest, so that's not exactly your go to spell when you have so few of them. I didn't take that feat on my spammer. Didn't seem worth. /shrug

[tria]

With Shiradi Champion - Feywild Attunement are you are always considered to be in ranged sneak attack range also, similar to Horizon Shot?

[Cantor]

Ok I must be a bit stupid, because personally I'm not really seeing the issue you guys must be seeing. So can someone please explain it to me.
Because the way I see it, yes preview 3 is obviously considerably worse to preview 2 for Missile Spam.

But

Live is: 7% chance to do 10d10 damage + 7% chance to deal 2d100 + 7% chance to deal 1d100.

Throwing a 5 missile spell, on average one of those above will proc. On a full 10 shot chain missile, you'd get on average 2 procs. But a 10~/6~/4~ (or whatever your personal split of missile spammer is, mine is 9/7/4) are only getting 5 or 6 base missiles even in chain missile. With the additional 10 for CM's explosion 2nd effect. So that's about 16 missiles, so on average you're going to proc 3 times. (3.36 times on average if my maths is correct)

Current Lam is: 30% chance to deal 3d100+100 + 30% chance to deal 3d100+180, but only once per cast.

As far as I can tell, base magic missile is still going to come out ahead of live by a large margin. Even chain missile, which as far as I can tell (on average) is the only spell that's going to come out worse, with only getting 2 procs instead of 3 (or heck, I'll be extra generous and say you got the unlikely .36 chance 4th proc), and I'll even be EXTRA generous and say you got 4 procs of 2d100 which is the best case scenario, well you just got 8d100 extra damage. On average, 404 damage.

On Lam, on chain missile, you're getting an almost guaranteed 6d100+280. On average 583. Still more damage than live. Chain missile is, as far as I can tell, on average ahead. And it's the worst case scenario most possible procs. Any other spell that throws less missiles or beams or rays, should be ahead even more.

So as far as I can tell, the only people who would be disappointed by this, are people who tested it in Preview 2. Anyone not watching Lam, who's just playing the game normally when U51 hits, would just see a buff. Which means if they're viable on live right now (Which, they exist, so I assume that means they are.) then they should still be viable after this update hits. Just less powerful than they could have been. And to be honest, i tested it on preview 2. It was silly. I liked it but it was silly.



Note: This is assuming Prism and Stay (F/G) both have a different 0.1s cooldown. If it's a cooldown they both share, that limits procs to 1 per cast fullstop, then yea that'd be bad. But I would assume it's not that.

This fits with my assessment too, it's still a boost over live. The missile spammer is dead crew must just mean that it doesn't get as good a boost as something else they will switch to. I don't see how people think it's so broken it needs a +20 heart for sure.

[Oliphant]

For some reason the ED revamp really wants to kill our active attacks. That's why there's a bunch of multiselectors and everything's tied to epic strikes.

I hate this, unless somehow U51 changes everything with how lag works. Active attacks for some reason actually work while just spamming normal attacks is completely exposed to whatever lame process is causing DDO lag. Active attacks always seem to work. Normal attacks seem to lag out 10% of the time.

[anticlimax]

I hadn't played live in a while so when I logged in to play a bit of mabar & other stuff I realised just how bad self healing was with this preview. So I did some rough maths and basically the new healing spring would need 45 charges to deliver the same potential healing as the live version, no wonder whilst testing I was spending so long healing out of combat. I don't mind a change to healing spring but the vigor effect is so bad it's ridiculous to think it's appropriate for epics.

It's a shame as the rest of Shiradi is in a good place for ranged IMO.

[mr420247]

Rule 1 of fight club come on

[LurkingVeteran]

Essentially...

I could be reading this wrong, but it seems that the design goal of this tree is centered around Prism being a significant source of damage. The problem is that no other mantle in any other destiny has this goal. What do melees get from their mantles? +1[w] situationally? lol.

I'm certainly not opposed to this design goal, but it basically needs to be a tier 5 investment or every caster and ranged build will be forced into prism regardless of which other destiny they prefer. I also thought that part of the overarching desgin goal of these changes was a smoother transition into epic levels. Prism seems to be keeping with the old design paradigm of giving a large power spike at level 20.

This.

Prism and Stay Good do a large amount of damage. For casters it looks like a 30-100% increase to sustained DPS. On at least paper. Even disregarding that some spells can get around the CD cap. That is a huge boost when compared to other Mantles. The DI mantle also looks a bit strong with the DoT add-on. Maybe a 15% general DPS increase, or 20% single target only, would be low enough that people would actually consider other mantles, but as it stands nobody in his right mind would pick any other mantle than Shiradi or DI. The Magus and PA mantles are also pretty good, but at least it would be a harder choice vs. EA healing aura or utility from GMoF or SD mantles. By comparison, the US mantle requires investing up to T5 just to get a 20% hp buff. T5 for +20% hp vs T2 for +30-100% DPS?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Is this another Epic Moment that isn't going to feel particularly "Epic" and rather just a buffed up action boost?

How about bringing Rain of Arrows back but making it feel actually Epic?

Could be something like:

Fire 10 manyshots into the air in 5 seconds and then ask for a Blessing from your Lady that they fly true while you have tea with her. 30 arrow hits are spread among available targets in your vicinity with +1 threat and multiplier with double the chance of proccing all Shiradi on-hit affects (even untrained ones). In addition, you are whisked away for 5 seconds for tea with your Lady who provides you with a defensive blessing dependent on your diplomacy with her. If your health is reduced to 0 before firing all the manyshots then your Lady will intervene to save you and return you to full health and still ensure that the arrows you shot fly true but not provide a blessing. If you are at full health when you are whisked away you may get an offensive blessing as well if your diplomacy is high enough.

This provides:
- AoE damage
- Single target damage
- Offensive buffs (when not being attacked)
- Defensive buffs
- Healing
- Oh **** button

Epic!

[ZEMTEK]

I was going to come back to DDO but since the new upgrades do not allow adrenaline boost with ranged players and to top it off you nerfed the shiradi tree. It currently gives +10 to ranged power per core ability the new shiradi only gives +4 for the first one. What does this game have against bow users? You nerfed the pass through effect about 2 years making GxBows way weaker and now you making them even weaker yet. I think this time I will stay away from this game permantly now. Thank you so much for ruining a game I love.