Warlocks doubly nerfed by update 50 and update 51

[typherius84]

Hi all just wanted to express my concerns with the game changes for Update 50 and 51 and whether the devs had considered the impact of the stat squish and the removal of getting stat points from the new epic destinies.

This is not a whine or complaint post but more about raising awareness and concerns. Unlike other arcane casters, warlocks are more dependent on stat points to boost their DC numbers. Most affected would be our class defining signature spells such as Hurl through Hell, Create Thrall, Ameliorate, and Absolute Zero are all dependant on the formula (15 + warlock level + charisma mod).

You cannot increase these abilities DC with any spell focus, they are solely based on charisma stat mod. By squashing the stats with update 50 and now removing stats from all epic destiny trees, the devs have effectively doubly nerfed warlocks without giving them a means to get the DC for their signature ability to anything meaningful to be useful in game. Either please change the formula for these abilities to allow for spell focus (enchantment, necro, evo whatever) to apply to the DC so that at least these abilities can scale better in future or add stat points to epic destiny trees and give us the option to take stat points instead of these other abilities as an opportunity cost.

Right now it feels like the Devs had made these changes without consideration to the warlock class.

[Hawkwier]

Hi all just wanted to express my concerns with the game changes for Update 50 and 51 and whether the devs had considered the impact of the stat squish and the removal of getting stat points from the new epic destinies.

This is not a whine or complaint post but more about raising awareness and concerns. Unlike other arcane casters, warlocks are more dependent on stat points to boost their DC numbers. Most affected would be our class defining signature spells such as Hurl through Hell, Create Thrall, Ameliorate, and Absolute Zero are all dependant on the formula (15 + warlock level + charisma mod).

You cannot increase these abilities DC with any spell focus, they are solely based on charisma stat mod. By squashing the stats with update 50 and now removing stats from all epic destiny trees, the devs have effectively doubly nerfed warlocks without giving them a means to get the DC for their signature ability to anything meaningful to be useful in game. Either please change the formula for these abilities to allow for spell focus (enchantment, necro, evo whatever) to apply to the DC so that at least these abilities can scale better in future or add stat points to epic destiny trees and give us the option to take stat points instead of these other abilities as an opportunity cost.

Right now it feels like the Devs had made these changes without consideration to the warlock class.

Same principle applies to Visage of Terror, the Barb Ravager capstone, which relies exclusively on Con. So far post U50 it seems OK (in my admittedly very short play time since returning), but the removal of abilities from ED trees and nerfing of Primal Scream are further nerfs currently in U51 I'd hope the Devs will look carefully at...

[typherius84]

Same principle applies to Visage of Terror, the Barb Ravager capstone, which relies exclusively on Con. So far post U50 it seems OK (in my admittedly very short play time since returning), but the removal of abilities from ED trees and nerfing of Primal Scream are further nerfs currently in U51 I'd hope the Devs will look carefully at...

Ye I’m pretty sure there’s a few other class defining abilities that rely solely on stats. I hope that with these revamps that they will have a look at these skills again and adjust the formula to allow these abilities to scale better as the game progresses. I know that the warlock special pact abilities had their formula adjusted not too long ago, but with what’s happened with update 50 and now 51, I feel it’s time the devs re-examine the maths and change it.

I am aware that Steelstar mentioned in a post that monsters will have their epic resilience removed but that still does not make up the massive loss to the DC of these abilities with the massive stat loss from the gear changes and now stat loss from the epic destinies. Can we get a dev response to what are their plans for these abilities and will they be adjusted to reflect current changes and directions.

[Amastris]

Proof that the dev's hate Warlocks as much as Kobolds in the waterworks hate you!

I mean its completely obvious that there is general hate and disgust for warlock from the devs in the workings of U50 and 51. the stupid thing is that Warlocks still dont have a tree and are going to be gimped until the release of [NAME REDACTED] tree. I've seen the way Quinten did the ED revamp so it proves 2 things to me 1. My 10 year old Niece could have done a better job and 2 My expectations of the forthcoming Warlock tree have sunk so low that I've become disillusioned with warlock.

It further proves that the Dev's dont play warlock on live servers. If they did play this class then adjustments would haver been made to at least try to help the class fit into a tree until the release of the class-centric tree. I mean they couldn't even fix the problems warlocks have with night revels. Abyss pact warlocks would heal Doomspheres and Eternity with their blasts making it almost impossible to do Night revels as an Abyss Tanklock. Heck they couldnt even get their cosmetics to work right because i was running around with the two headed broom being shown when i had Cone shape turned on which is supposed to hide your weapons. it looked so stupid!

There was supposed to be a change to Auras, (according to Lammy preview) but there was no mention of it at all in the release notes. Arcane tempest was supposed to be added to warlock spell book. No mention of that either. Get your best kobold voice out and everybody say it with me... "Dev's still hate you!"

I dont even think the removal of epic resilience is going to have any impact. you can at least pick up 2 CHA from the PA tree since most people are going to splash there for Cocoon. its only T2 so a 13 point investment, IF you have the points to spend there. but imo its not worth the point spend for 1 DC.

However doing the math, Magister gave a total of 15 to DC through cores, CHA and and spell school specializations. both DI and the new Magus tree give a total of 9 at level 30 if you take T5. the removal of epic resilience is taking away 6 saves verses magic from mobs at end game. so its really break even for DC casting. but not for the mentioned things like Hurl and Absolute Zero. those are still going to be affected. but at least Necro DC casting warlocks can be in either Magus or DI. not much consolation there....

[Rodasch]

Hi all just wanted to express my concerns with the game changes for Update 50 and 51 and whether the devs had considered the impact of the stat squish and the removal of getting stat points from the new epic destinies.

This is not a whine or complaint post but more about raising awareness and concerns. Unlike other arcane casters, warlocks are more dependent on stat points to boost their DC numbers. Most affected would be our class defining signature spells such as Hurl through Hell, Create Thrall, Ameliorate, and Absolute Zero are all dependant on the formula (15 + warlock level + charisma mod).

You cannot increase these abilities DC with any spell focus, they are solely based on charisma stat mod. By squashing the stats with update 50 and now removing stats from all epic destiny trees, the devs have effectively doubly nerfed warlocks without giving them a means to get the DC for their signature ability to anything meaningful to be useful in game. Either please change the formula for these abilities to allow for spell focus (enchantment, necro, evo whatever) to apply to the DC so that at least these abilities can scale better in future or add stat points to epic destiny trees and give us the option to take stat points instead of these other abilities as an opportunity cost.

Right now it feels like the Devs had made these changes without consideration to the warlock class.

They lowered the Saves of every monster you will be using them on in epics so it's a wash.

[slarden]

They lowered the Saves of every monster you will be using them on in epics so it's a wash.

It's not a wash.

Old Magister

+6 Cores
+6 Specific School
+3 From 5 charisma ranks and 1 twist
=========
15 Total Old System

+3 Cores
+3 Tier 3 Specific School
+3 Tier 5
=========
+9 Total New System

It's true the devs removed epic resilience but that was based on enemy hit points. So if a mob is at a full hit points it's break even. If a mob is at 50% or less we are at -6. That's not to say the other changes don't more than make up for it on a DC caster, but it's not break even.

[SkywalterDBZ]

Not a complaint either ... I just have SO much I need to go over as my Warlocks ability bars are just plain grayed out now. I use the (presumably) rare breed of CON Dwarf Throw Your Weight Around Warlock, and so I've knowingly tanked my CHA and spellcasting abilities. Most of my build was centered around swinging my dwarven axe and of course Shining Through ... but the rest of my abilites were reliant on being all over the place in terms of feats and EDs. Strike Down, Confront Any Foe, and Lay Waste were my melee staples with of course Dire Charge for the CC and gap closer. Celestial Bombardment for even more CC (that thing just never seemed to care about subpar DCs like other spells) and Energy Burst for some massive extra damage. Toss in Consecration and Rejuvenation Cocoon that did decent self healing when dipping below temp HP. And of course Zeal of the Righteous to just go melee crazy.

I realize there's probably a whole new build out there ... but boy is it gonna be some work and lots of testing to find.

[jskinner937]

Hi all just wanted to express my concerns with the game changes for Update 50 and 51 and whether the devs had considered the impact of the stat squish and the removal of getting stat points from the new epic destinies.

This is not a whine or complaint post but more about raising awareness and concerns. Unlike other arcane casters, warlocks are more dependent on stat points to boost their DC numbers. Most affected would be our class defining signature spells such as Hurl through Hell, Create Thrall, Ameliorate, and Absolute Zero are all dependant on the formula (15 + warlock level + charisma mod).

You cannot increase these abilities DC with any spell focus, they are solely based on charisma stat mod. By squashing the stats with update 50 and now removing stats from all epic destiny trees, the devs have effectively doubly nerfed warlocks without giving them a means to get the DC for their signature ability to anything meaningful to be useful in game. Either please change the formula for these abilities to allow for spell focus (enchantment, necro, evo whatever) to apply to the DC so that at least these abilities can scale better in future or add stat points to epic destiny trees and give us the option to take stat points instead of these other abilities as an opportunity cost.

Right now it feels like the Devs had made these changes without consideration to the warlock class.

DCs in general have been nerfed between the 2 updates, and monsters saves haven't been adjusted quite the same as Hps have. So I have focused more on damage than CC.

FYI Warlocks do not rely on DCs any more than other arcane casters, and havent suffered anymore. If anything the core of warlocks abilities and eldrich blast have put them in a better position than other caster classes for DCs.

[typherius84]

DCs in general have been nerfed between the 2 updates, and monsters saves haven't been adjusted quite the same as Hps have. So I have focused more on damage than CC.

FYI Warlocks do not rely on DCs any more than other arcane casters, and havent suffered anymore. If anything the core of warlocks abilities and eldrich blast have put them in a better position than other caster classes for DCs.

My point was that most of our signature class defining abilities are dependent on stats alone to increase its DC, it cannot be boosted by any other means. By removal of most means for us to stack Charisma with the new Epic Destinies and on top of that the massive Stat squish means that it is impossible to get our class defining abilities to be effective. What I am asking for is for the Devs to maybe re-evaluate how formula for how they calculate the DC for these abilities to also account for spell school bonuses (evo, necro, conj etc) so that these abilities can scale better with where the game is headed.

Again I am aware that all casters got DC nerfed on their spells, but not all casters have their class defining spell abilities to be based on Stats alone. It would be like changing all the big SLAs of other caster classes to have a DC based purely on Stats, then without consideration to these abilities squish the stats in update 50 and now remove more stats with update 51. These abilities will now be useless and cannot scale since they depend on stats alone and not affected by anything else. Thus when the new ED removed Stats allocation but gives us +DC and +School masteries, It doesnt help at all with our current kit. Don't you think this is unfair and not properly thought out? I can understand everyone being nerfed equally but this is not the case now is it?

[slarden]

DCs in general have been nerfed between the 2 updates, and monsters saves haven't been adjusted quite the same as Hps have. So I have focused more on damage than CC.

FYI Warlocks do not rely on DCs any more than other arcane casters, and havent suffered anymore. If anything the core of warlocks abilities and eldrich blast have put them in a better position than other caster classes for DCs.

At least from what I can tell it is more impactful on warlock because of their lower DCs. For example my wizard is hitting instakill DCs just fine with the changes, but I do notice it more challenging to land necro spells on warlock as it's not unusual that enemies have some damage. Prior to U50 I was SE/TS dc based necro specialist. I think with U51 a cc/blasting warlock makes alot more sense than a necro warlock although necro warlocks will still be a thing because they have devour that goes against a will save and 2x fingers that can be used against soft targets. It's just less useful to the party when you are limited on which enemies you can target.

The great thing is that the single-target dps gains on warlock are significant and makes a cc/blasting warlock a more reasonable build selection than before. From a raiding perspective cc/blasting warlocks are less useful, but oh well.

They weren't nerfed to oblivion, but it will impact build decisions significantly.

[majorhavoc]

Hi all just wanted to express my concerns with the game changes for Update 50 and 51 and whether the devs had considered the impact of the stat squish and the removal of getting stat points from the new epic destinies.

This is not a whine or complaint post but more about raising awareness and concerns. Unlike other arcane casters, warlocks are more dependent on stat points to boost their DC numbers. Most affected would be our class defining signature spells such as Hurl through Hell, Create Thrall, Ameliorate, and Absolute Zero are all dependant on the formula (15 + warlock level + charisma mod).

You cannot increase these abilities DC with any spell focus, they are solely based on charisma stat mod. By squashing the stats with update 50 and now removing stats from all epic destiny trees, the devs have effectively doubly nerfed warlocks without giving them a means to get the DC for their signature ability to anything meaningful to be useful in game. Either please change the formula for these abilities to allow for spell focus (enchantment, necro, evo whatever) to apply to the DC so that at least these abilities can scale better in future or add stat points to epic destiny trees and give us the option to take stat points instead of these other abilities as an opportunity cost.

Right now it feels like the Devs had made these changes without consideration to the warlock class.

I agree, my main for many years was a DC Loc, now with the U50 & U51 nerf I was forced to TR back to DPS Sorc, I am very disappointed with the SSG team, it may not have been an intentional smack down of Loc's but that is the result & no effort to mitigate the damage.

[slarden]

I agree, my main for many years was a DC Loc, now with the U50 & U51 nerf I was forced to TR back to DPS Sorc, I am very disappointed with the SSG team, it may not have been an intentional smack down of Loc's but that is the result & no effort to mitigate the damage.

It's not so much that walrocks were nerfed, they were actually buffed quite a bit.

The problem is the changes in U51 heavily favor sorcs which were already top dog. I also think wizard is clearly better than warlock post-U51.

[typherius84]

It's not so much that walrocks were nerfed, they were actually buffed quite a bit.

The problem is the changes in U51 heavily favor sorcs which were already top dog. I also think wizard is clearly better than warlock post-U51.

You are missing the point of the thread and what others are trying to state. This is purely directed to DC casting warlocks and their abilities to effectively hit adequate DC numbers due to the changes with update 50 and 51. If you think warlocks are 'buffed quite a bit' in terms of their damage capabilities you need to look at things relatively compared to other classes. Although you can do damage as a warlock, that is not what the strength of the class is. You can do damage with any and all class in this game. The issue here lies in the harder content and raids - when a group is looking for dps I can assure u that they are not thinking about a warlock. Furthermore, a warlock's dps is bottom tier and pales compared to a vast majority of other class builds. What a warlock brings to the table at end game and raids is the ability to CC and DC i.e. instakill trash and we are unique in this field due to our access to both will save and fort save spells that is inclusive of our signature abilities such as hurl to hell, absolute zero, devour the soul, etc... On top of that we are uniquely given access to 2 fingers.

The issue is and the whole point of this thread is that our playstyle as DC CASTERS have been doubly nerfed due to the stat squish and the removal of stats on destiny trees as i have mentioned above. The other DC casters are not as affected as us because:
1. They are able to get a higher DC threshold - mainly due to filigree sets bonuses (wizards) cause INT has better dc set options - and hence able reach a threshold of DC that is effective at higher tier content
2. They don't have spells and abilities that are solely reliant on STATS to increase DC and can be boosted by spell focus on items and especially in the destiny trees
3. The DC of our spells were nerfed earlier in previous updates due to us having 'access to the exalted angel tree' when we are able to gain bonus dc from going EA and twisting in magister DC. This is no longer the case after the Destiny tree rework.

Again - This thread is not about warlocks doing DPS or the being able to do more dps than previous. This is purely a call to attention to the DEVS to consider fixing a playstyle that has been adversely affected by these updates and NO considerations at all have been made to adjust this playstyle to be viable. AKA - DC warlock casters.

I know we may be a minority, but I am not alone to state that a lot of us DC warlocks are hurting and the Devs have been silent about our situation. I know quite a few people have either quit or rerolled into another (and better) DC caster such as Wizards, Sorcs, Alchemists, heck even Clerics who can also do other amazing stuff i.e. heals and revives.

Ask yourself this question - What does a warlock bring to a group that another class cannot do better?
And this is why we need a class buff. People are whispering about the holy grail fix when the warlock destiny tree comes, but unless they adjust our DC formulas, things will remain the same.

[slarden]

You are missing the point of the thread and what others are trying to state. This is purely directed to DC casting warlocks and their abilities to effectively hit adequate DC numbers due to the changes with update 50 and 51.

I do not feel my warlock is ineffective at DC casting. I do notice spots where DC isn't working, but I have been able to adapt fine. I feel warlock DC should be buffed, but it's not something I consider an emergency as warlocks are currently effective - both solo and in parties.

If you think warlocks are 'buffed quite a bit' in terms of their damage capabilities you need to look at things relatively compared to other classes. Although you can do damage as a warlock, that is not what the strength of the class is. You can do damage with any and all class in this game. The issue here lies in the harder content and raids - when a group is looking for dps I can assure u that they are not thinking about a warlock. Furthermore, a warlock's dps is bottom tier and pales compared to a vast majority of other class builds.

Eldritch blast is terrible in terms of dps - 100 base damage with nearly a 1 second cast time. It's free, but only worth using as a filler. However, when you look at draconic and shiradi abilities + epic feats (greater ruin, arcane pulse) warlock benefits from critical damage boost more than other classes. Percentage is 30% for most warlocks but can be 60% on the old TS/SE obsolete build that at least a few people posted in the warlock forums recently.

What a warlock brings to the table at end game and raids is the ability to CC and DC i.e. instakill trash and we are unique in this field due to our access to both will save and fort save spells that is inclusive of our signature abilities such as hurl to hell, absolute zero, devour the soul, etc... On top of that we are uniquely given access to 2 fingers.

I was the first to promote playing this style of warlock after a series of warlock nerfs when most warlocks were focused on maxing dps. In addition to what you mentioned tentacles is really good and one of the few things that work around despair reaper save bonuses to enemies.

this thread is that our playstyle as DC CASTERS have been doubly nerfed due to the stat squish and the removal of stats on destiny trees as i have mentioned above. The other DC casters are not as affected as us because:
1. They are able to get a higher DC threshold - mainly due to filigree sets bonuses (wizards) cause INT has better dc set options - and hence able reach a threshold of DC that is effective at higher tier content
2. They don't have spells and abilities that are solely reliant on STATS to increase DC and can be boosted by spell focus on items and especially in the destiny trees
3. The DC of our spells were nerfed earlier in previous updates due to us having 'access to the exalted angel tree' when we are able to gain bonus dc from going EA and twisting in magister DC. This is no longer the case after the Destiny tree rework.

Warlock dc does need a boost whenever they get around to updating the warlock trees. Warlock DC boosts were held back due to exalted angel which was a mistake and is now an obsolete argument.

At some point I will do a mathematical analysis of class-by-class DC comparisons and yes warlock will finish at the bottom. However, having tentacles, devour the soul and pact ability shouldn't be underestimated. Those are really good and allow warlocks to be effective against enemies other classes struggle with.

In general as someone that runs melee, ranged and casters I think casters did really well with U51. If you previously ran in magister you should only notice a dip in DC on enemies below full health and that difference can be up to -5. At least for me looking at the + and - together is necessary to come to a good conclusion and the only conclusion I can arrive at with U51 is that warlock may not be as big of a winner as sorc, but warlock still did great. SSG pushed casters towards a generalist model with homegenized trees. If you embrace that model your warlock should be better. If you want to focus on just DC casting it's a self-inflicted problem.

Again - This thread is not about warlocks doing DPS or the being able to do more dps than previous. This is purely a call to attention to the DEVS to consider fixing a playstyle that has been adversely affected by these updates and NO considerations at all have been made to adjust this playstyle to be viable. AKA - DC warlock casters.

I know we may be a minority, but I am not alone to state that a lot of us DC warlocks are hurting and the Devs have been silent about our situation. I know quite a few people have either quit or rerolled into another (and better) DC caster such as Wizards, Sorcs, Alchemists, heck even Clerics who can also do other amazing stuff i.e. heals and revives.

Ask yourself this question - What does a warlock bring to a group that another class cannot do better?
And this is why we need a class buff. People are whispering about the holy grail fix when the warlock destiny tree comes, but unless they adjust our DC formulas, things will remain the same.

You mentioned what warlock brings to the table earlier and those things are really good. ES/TS cc/blasting warlocks are also quite good again with the more generalist approach. Even with a heavy DPS focus my guildy is able to take on dooms on R10 when needed.

One of the benefits of having devour the soul is that warlocks are the only class that can instakill some high fort-save enemies.

I know quite a few people have either quit or rerolled into another (and better) DC caster such as Wizards, Sorcs, Alchemists, heck even Clerics who can also do other amazing stuff i.e. heals and revives.

Warlock is definitely under-represented in push raiding, but every population post-out I've seen on the forums shows warlocks as a popular class. If people stop playing them it would likely result in the devs taking notice.

Meanwhile on the general forum the usual group is posting that melees need a buff and ranged/casters need a nerf. Historically the devs have listened to this group much more than people asking for caster buffs.