U51 Preview 2: Magus of the Eclipse

[Tilomere]

the only way ... inquisitive

Maybe this helps for dps archmage, dps pale master, or dps eldritch knight.

[Reilia]

Arcane Pulse is not going to be removed.

What about arcane tempest?

[Hashrabal]

Here's a fairly reasonable estimate of easy-to-get stuff (3 EPL's, 3 IPL's, 4 Sharn gearpieces, 40 Int) given your spec of "it's impossible with any amount of PL's or gear". Can definitely get a bunch more if you try. I used numbers from Barovian Scepter and Creeping Dust staff which are obviously exclusive, but it's not like you can't get another Spellcraft source - they were just the most on-hand for me. This is pretty far from an Acid Well optimized gearset though, as I'm sure you'll agree.

Acid Spellpower:

• 15 Spellcasting Implement
• 25 Arti (Esoteric)
• 94 Equip (Creeping Dust)
• 30 Ins (Dusk Lenses)
• 8 Excep (Order)
• 20 PM Core 4
• 30 EK Core 3
• 15 Airship
• 3 Rem Tome
• 15 Deep Gnome IPL

Spellcraft

• 12 Competence (Barovian Scepter)
• 6 Insightful (Barovian Scepter)
• 15 Int (40 Int)
• 3 tome
• 3 Airship

Acid Crit

• 14 Equipment (Creeping Dust)
• 3 Excep (Order)
• 5 Magical Training
• 9 Energy Criticals

All told 294 Spellpower and 31% Spell crit.

Hey, just farm 3 past lives, carry near perfect gear for the level for the off-spec (best one per element...) and have tomes and everything just so devs don't have to fix negative energy damage.
Really? That is your point?

Why would anyone go through all the hoops you use to "prove" it's doable (if still very slow and still not doable without pots) when they can just play one of the not broken classes? There are many viable casters to chose from. PM ain't one of them and will never be, as long as people like you lie about it being viable and the devs stupidly keep ignoring all it's problems. Not like that ain't par for the course - DDO is one of the most unbalanced games and one of the games I am most sure the devs don't actually play themselves (at any reasonable level). Who cares.. the MMO scene looks better by the day... not like this is the only remaining game anymore... thanks god.

But I don't give a <censored> anymore. I've got no skin in this game - I just play whatever remains viable after the U51 disaster - if that turns out to be nothing (which is unlikely but who knows) I'll just play something else.

And I especially am not interested in having further discussion with people like you. You miss the point. It was never about whether it was doable. It was about whether it was doable without running out of SP (and thus having to fork over cash, since pots drop way to rare in-game, another dirty tactic to make some cash...). You can keep coming up with fantasy scenario after scenario - nobody will take all the work to carry two full gear sets, one for negative energy and one for acid, just to then use negative energy gear set in 40% of the quests and acid in the other 60% if they could just instead run an earth sorc and literally kill everything they want with one spell since their immunity bypass actually works.

And yes you can just carry the PM stuff for the self-heals and use another damage type. The best choices there are again not casters, but if you are determined enough you can probably get something to work. Or you know, play a good class.

PM will remain a RP choice. Good flavor, not usable for serious play. And I am sure some pretty flowers like you will still "prove" it to be "viable" by min/maxing everything and then still burning pots and still taking four times longer then good classes... hell there are blindfolded mario speed runs. People like to play with all kinds of handicaps. If that floats your boat, go for it.

But please be realistic enough to see that PM is utter trash compared to Sorc/Alch/Paladin/Inquisitve...

[SpartanKiller13]

Hey, just farm 3 past lives, carry near perfect gear for the level for the off-spec (best one per element...) and have tomes and everything just so devs don't have to fix negative energy damage.
Really? That is your point?

No, my point is that even at one of their weakest points they can still be fine. Esoteric is pretty far from a hard ask for a caster, if you don't have a Sharn 3-piece you're literally trolling when calling a class underpowered for soloing. Perfect gearset is far beyond that, all I asked for was Esoteric, Acid Spellpower/Spell Lore, and Spellcraft. Cannith Crafting or randomgen will do just fine for that. Arcane Augmentation is nifty, but is only a 5.9% difference. Stone Shoes is an easy example of better gear, but like I'd never expect a PM to have those despite them giving +40 Acid Spellpower over the gearset I listed. Reaper/Mythic gear, up to 20 spellpower from Thaumaturge, spellpower boosts (PM + Reaper for another 75) - these are all things I'd expect to see as well and didn't include.

I used those because of your previous quote, shown here with emphasis added:

And there is no way you can beat best laid plans on a PM without pots at level (17). Just no way. You can have as many PLs, Gear, whatever you want. The two spells that do meaningful damage can mathematically not do enough damage to kill all the horse dung they put in this quest.

I don't think 3 PL's is an unreasonable requirement for soloing something your class is really bad at in some of DDO's hardest content, but frankly you don't even need them. If you have no PL's that average drops from like 850 to like 790 and life goes on.

Why would anyone go through all the hoops you use to "prove" it's doable (if still very slow and still not doable without pots) when they can just play one of the not broken classes? There are many viable casters to chose from. PM ain't one of them and will never be, as long as people like you lie about it being viable and the devs stupidly keep ignoring all it's problems.

I didn't go through a ton of hoops, I just did napkin math a lot more accurately than yours lol. You came up with an estimated 1 minute and 10 uses of Acid Well to kill a non-Redname at-level, and I found that estimate wildly unreasonable - and showed my work lol. PM is one of the strongest trees in DDO - not at Acid Well, for sure, but saying Wizards are unplayably bad is blatantly false and I'm willing to spend a few minutes to demonstrate that.

You miss the point. It was never about whether it was doable. It was about whether it was doable without running out of SP (and thus having to fork over cash, since pots drop way to rare in-game, another dirty tactic to make some cash...). You can keep coming up with fantasy scenario after scenario - nobody will take all the work to carry two full gear sets, one for negative energy and one for acid, just to then use negative energy gear set in 40% of the quests and acid in the other 60% if they could just instead run an earth sorc and literally kill everything they want with one spell since their immunity bypass actually works.

I have drank one (1) SP pot in my entire DDO career. Get out of here with that. I've never paid for one, and I expect I will never in the future either (and I have a whole stack saved up from my 42ish lives). It's not fantasy, I've played Wizards through Sharn before. I'm not talking a fantasy about gearsets, I ran Esoteric on my PM caster life so it would be all of one item gearswap (Acid Spellpower/Lore) which I'm more than fine with - but even with NO ACID ITEM it's only down to 760 average - which is still more than fine. As far as having swap gear, my current character at level 3 has like 6 swap pieces so a single item seems totally reasonable.

And yes you can just carry the PM stuff for the self-heals and use another damage type. The best choices there are again not casters, but if you are determined enough you can probably get something to work. Or you know, play a good class.

PM will remain a RP choice. Good flavor, not usable for serious play. And I am sure some pretty flowers like you will still "prove" it to be "viable" by min/maxing everything and then still burning pots and still taking four times longer then good classes... hell there are blindfolded mario speed runs. People like to play with all kinds of handicaps. If that floats your boat, go for it.

But please be realistic enough to see that PM is utter trash compared to Sorc/Alch/Paladin/Inquisitve...

If you're judging PM by it's construct damage than I can see why you dislike it lmao. PM is strong for DC casting and survivability, not for DPS. Welcome to DDO, there's more than just DPS to be effective.

Sorc/Alch/Paladin/Inq - which of those has R8 passive self-healing? Which of those has DC's like 10 higher than any other class in DDO?

PM DC Wizard was the first class I got into R8/10 with. I had a blast, and did a lot better than my next like 8 lives with it. Zappy used his for R10 and Reaper Raid tanking (link here). I'm not sure what you call "serious play" but that seems plenty viable for me lol.

Doesn't have to be very min/maxed at all. No EPL's and just Esoteric set, I'd still expect 670 average. If you don't have 3-piece set what are you even doing complaining? Go farm one out, your Sorc lives will be better too.

[Iriale]

SpartanKiller13, no one has asked to turn the pale master into a dps. What we ask is not to lose damage in a class that already has very low and very inefficient dps. And it is what is happening with this update. We do not ask to be top ten in dps, we ask to have solvent dps for solo quests like any other class. With this update, we are going to lose DC, we are going to lose force support (which we need when we face many enemies), we do not receive a varied elemental support (only cold or negative, and on top of that they force us to choose, it would be bad to receive support alone to two energies so linked in immunities lol), we do not get any help with the many immunities to negative energy (I do not ask for an absolute bypass, but hey, is that even the undead bypass is difficult to use due to the lack of negative spells)

Can you see now why we are upset? Pale master with this update does not win anything. Just lose.

I also point out that the best CC'ers / instantkillers are not wizards, they are sorcerers. Although the wizard has the advantage of getting higher DCs, a viable DC can be achieved with sorcerer (DC casting needs a lot of investment, but what comes from the class itself is minimal compared to external factors: gear, past lives, reaper points, EDs...), and instead the advantages of the sorcerer (fast casting, more spell points, etc) cannot be replicated with the wizard. Currently the role of spell dps is destroyed in raids thanks to the overnerfs of the devs, but for level up, the sorcerer also has better dps than the wizard. So stop attacking those of us who ask not to nerf our wizards.

And I don't talk about poor warlock anymore, I think the devs have forgotten that the class exists.

I have no problems leveling up to my pale master at the moment, but if they put me even more obstacles in a class with the low dps of the pale master, it will be the last straw. I have no more patience for so many nerfs.

[elvesunited]

SpartanKiller13, no one has asked to turn the pale master into a dps. What we ask is not to lose damage in a class that already has very low and very inefficient dps. And it is what is happening with this update. We do not ask to be top ten in dps, we ask to have solvent dps for solo quests like any other class. With this update, we are going to lose DC, we are going to lose force support (which we need when we face many enemies), we do not receive a varied elemental support (only cold or negative, and on top of that they force us to choose, it would be bad to receive support alone to two energies so linked in immunities lol), we do not get any help with the many immunities to negative energy (I do not ask for an absolute bypass, but hey, is that even the undead bypass is difficult to use due to the lack of negative spells)

Can you see now why we are upset? Pale master with this update does not win anything. Just lose.

I also point out that the best CC'ers / instantkillers are not wizards, they are sorcerers. Although the wizard has the advantage of getting higher DCs, a viable DC can be achieved with sorcerer (DC casting needs a lot of investment, but what comes from the class itself is minimal compared to external factors: gear, past lives, reaper points, EDs...), and instead the advantages of the sorcerer (fast casting, more spell points, etc) cannot be replicated with the wizard. Currently the role of spell dps is destroyed in raids thanks to the overnerfs of the devs, but for level up, the sorcerer also has better dps than the wizard. So stop attacking those of us who ask not to nerf our wizards.

And I don't talk about poor warlock anymore, I think the devs have forgotten that the class exists.

I have no problems leveling up to my pale master at the moment, but if they put me even more obstacles in a class with the low dps of the pale master, it will be the last straw. I have no more patience for so many nerfs.

The majority of spellcaster CC specialist I see are wizards. They can do the DC and the spell penetration. With work sorcerers can do the DC but it's generally in combo with DPS. ( which is why leveling them is easier )
Regardless if wizard or sorcerer though at this point I'd stick with Shiradi if going for CC. ( leads in DPS too but I wouldn't bet on that staying the same )

But for those characters that are actually looking at this for DPS. Here's a thought:

Why not have some of these Magus abilities use cold or negative power to determine their power level but actually do untyped damage?

If you hurl a spear made of ice at an enemy, you used your cold spellpower to create the spear. But the damage is actually physical. if you drop a falling chunk of ice on a cold immune enemy doesn't he still get crushed? If you use negative spellpower to create a mini-black hole won't that black hole kill a zombie or construct? It's a black hole!

[Iriale]

The majority of spellcaster CC specialist I see are wizards. They can do the DC and the spell penetration. With work sorcerers can do the DC but it's generally in combo with DPS. ( which is why leveling them is easier )
Regardless if wizard or sorcerer though at this point I'd stick with Shiradi if going for CC. ( leads in DPS too but I wouldn't bet on that staying the same )

But for those characters that are actually looking at this for DPS. Here's a thought:

Why not have some of these Magus abilities use cold or negative power to determine their power level but actually do untyped damage?

If you hurl a spear made of ice at an enemy, you used your cold spellpower to create the spear. But the damage is actually physical. if you drop a falling chunk of ice on a cold immune enemy doesn't he still get crushed? If you use negative spellpower to create a mini-black hole won't that black hole kill a zombie or construct? It's a black hole!

The best CC's and instantkillers are sorcerers. Look in the great guilds, in the guilds of raiders and such. Sorcerer has the potential to be the best in DC play and spell dps play (although not in raids, the designers have killed that style)

[slarden]

The best CC's and instantkillers are sorcerers. Look in the great guilds, in the guilds of raiders and such. Sorcerer has the potential to be the best in DC play and spell dps play (although not in raids, the designers have killed that style)

Currently wizards are really great when played by people that can make use of the extra spells and slightly higher dc, but sorc is more of an easy-button with the shorter cooldowns and higher spell point pools.

On the other hand even when spec'd for DC sorc has much better dps than a wizard or other casters and that gap will widen with U51.

The U51 previews have been too buggy for meaningful comparisons, but one possible way low-dps casting builds can benefit is by going hybrid with martial dps. It's going to take alot of testing to rack and stack all those options, but there is huge potential there. I mean there will obviously be martial dps compromises to max out dc, but beating casting dps is a very low bar to beat.

[Oliphant]

Do something with this tree that makes The Eclipse Itself with +9 necro (a staff) better than an using an Alchemical Orb +9 necro set up (example main hand and orb that tends to win out) on a Sorc please (somehow). Would be cool and fit the theme.

[Oliphant]

Wizards and Sorcs United!!! (even if I'm ranged bow dude right now)

[Iriale]

Currently wizards are really great when played by people that can make use of the extra spells and slightly higher dc, but sorc is more of an easy-button with the shorter cooldowns and higher spell point pools.

On the other hand even when spec'd for DC sorc has much better dps than a wizard or other casters and that gap will widen with U51.

The U51 previews have been too buggy for meaningful comparisons, but one possible way low-dps casting builds can benefit is by going hybrid with martial dps. It's going to take alot of testing to rack and stack all those options, but there is huge potential there. I mean there will obviously be martial dps compromises to max out dc, but beating casting dps is a very low bar to beat.

I am a wizard. I'm not going to become a martial hybrid just because the devs do their jobs poorly. If the devs do a crappy job, and my dps drops even more, I'll just keep playing other games like I have done for last two months. I'm tired of nerfs. Devs can mess with the game wherever it fits, and they can find other suckers to pay their bills.

I didn't say wizards are bad at DC casting. But sorcerers can be better, and on top of that they have better dps in almost any build. It's time for devs to stop plunging wizards' dps into misery.

[Cadveen]

Spell cool downs and debuffs should definitely be added. You can add it in with imperceptible casting or as a selector for summoner if you don’t want that. It can also be put into the cores.

[DaviMOC]

I'm bit off the discussions going on and more about the ED. I'm Liking to see a more necromancer/pm ed specialized attention but where did the true arcanist gone?

Hoping you guys are not expecting to turn every arcanist into a necromancer or a elementarist. Also hoping that you're not expecting the arcanist to rely on the promised artificer or warlock ED. They are kind of different.

[slarden]

I am a wizard. I'm not going to become a martial hybrid just because the devs do their jobs poorly. If the devs do a crappy job, and my dps drops even more, I'll just keep playing other games like I have done for last two months. I'm tired of nerfs. Devs can mess with the game wherever it fits, and they can find other suckers to pay their bills.

I didn't say wizards are bad at DC casting. But sorcerers can be better, and on top of that they have better dps in almost any build. It's time for devs to stop plunging wizards' dps into misery.

Understood. I am kind of excited about hybrid builds but the previews have been too buggy/incomplete to spend considerable time comparing dps.

My only point there is that wizard has a distinct advantage over sorc for a hybrid build since they generally have better dc potential and they have the bonus feats to squeeze in everything.

A wizard horizon walker in shiradi and alchemist thrower in shiradi are at the top of my list to test. Having unlimited free single-target dps + solid dc spells is super appealing to me. The bar for wizard dps is super low so even without full optimization it should crush spellcasting dps.

I think wizards are great dc spellcasters if they aren't expected to contribute dps. If they are going to solo or are expected to contribute dps to a party they will significantly underperform compared to sorc.

Losing arcane tempest is terrible for wizard. It was the best thing about magister.

[Cadveen]

Understood. I am kind of excited about hybrid builds but the previews have been too buggy/incomplete to spend considerable time comparing dps.

My only point there is that wizard has a distinct advantage over sorc for a hybrid build since they generally have better dc potential and they have the bonus feats to squeeze in everything.

A wizard horizon walker in shiradi and alchemist thrower in shiradi are at the top of my list to test. Having unlimited free single-target dps + solid dc spells is super appealing to me. The bar for wizard dps is super low so even without full optimization it should crush spellcasting dps.

I think wizards are great dc spellcasters if they aren't expected to contribute dps. If they are going to solo or are expected to contribute dps to a party they will significantly underperform compared to sorc.

Losing arcane tempest is terrible for wizard. It was the best thing about magister.

Just make it a level 8 spell and be done with it, along with Evards. Additionally, remove all dice caps from all spells. There is no use for those spells in the games current state.

[Iriale]

Just make it a level 8 spell and be done with it, along with Evards. Additionally, remove all dice caps from all spells. There is no use for those spells in the games current state.

Converting them to regular spells is not the solution. Is anyone really so naive not to believe that they would not suffer a nerf to adapt them to the damage of spells of that level? even if they don't get that nerf out of the box, they will soon, because devs have done things like that over and over again.

In addition, the warlock also makes a lot of use of arcane tempest, and having to expel one of his very rare spells to select arcane tempest would be another nerf.

Arcane tempest, divine wrath and such are epic spells. They should come back as EPIC spells.

This update is going to be a disaster.

[Iriale]

Understood. I am kind of excited about hybrid builds but the previews have been too buggy/incomplete to spend considerable time comparing dps.

My only point there is that wizard has a distinct advantage over sorc for a hybrid build since they generally have better dc potential and they have the bonus feats to squeeze in everything.

A wizard horizon walker in shiradi and alchemist thrower in shiradi are at the top of my list to test. Having unlimited free single-target dps + solid dc spells is super appealing to me. The bar for wizard dps is super low so even without full optimization it should crush spellcasting dps.

I think wizards are great dc spellcasters if they aren't expected to contribute dps. If they are going to solo or are expected to contribute dps to a party they will significantly underperform compared to sorc.

Losing arcane tempest is terrible for wizard. It was the best thing about magister.

yes, I want solo with my wizard, as with any other class. And if he devs you nerf me in that regard, bye bye. And no, I'm not going to go hybrid because THEY want me to. I'M TIRED of this team of devs wanting to determine how their players play. The strength of DDO has always been its variety of builds. These devs are just taking away flexibility, over and over again.

They are suffocating.

[Cadveen]

Converting them to regular spells is not the solution. Is anyone really so naive not to believe that they would not suffer a nerf to adapt them to the damage of spells of that level? even if they don't get that nerf out of the box, they will soon, because devs have done things like that over and over again.

In addition, the warlock also makes a lot of use of arcane tempest, and having to expel one of his very rare spells to select arcane tempest would be another nerf.

Arcane tempest, divine wrath and such are epic spells. They should come back as EPIC spells.

This update is going to be a disaster.

I am just looking for a compromise instead of what is likely going to happen. The spell will be lost until the other trees are built. I too don’t like the way the new destinies are going. It is essentially turning the game into DPS or bust. I liked the flavors of the original destinies, now it seems they want all Wizards to go illusion and/or be a negative energy sorc sidekick. The spell variety is what needs to be fixed. As I stated over the years they just need to rework all of the spells. Contagion should be useful if it is an option. Anyone have that as a mainstay in their spell book? I am also never going melee wizard. It’s a Wizard! Wizards are the sum of their spells. There needs to be many options that can work great if used tactically. Wizards Should be the pinnacle of spellcasting. EK should be a universal tree and a better caster centric tree should be the third tree. Additionally, There should be a mantle selector to where you become full Lich if you are in undead form, etc. Fear, disease(contagion), necro spells are increased and cause debut and/or spell cool down reduced. Despair is added as a spell like ability. Can cause physical damage with black hole. Some of the changes are good and welcome but the flavor and tactics are lost. Will turn into cycling the same attacks over and over.

*How about a Wall of Bone. That has huge tactical promise. Has x amount of hit points and can be cast as an obstruction. If you are in undead form it radiates poison, cloud kill, and can heal undead near it to include itself. Can be reinforced by rogue mechanic or artificer. This should be an summon option in the pale master enhancement tree or a spell. A non moving wall would be better than any current summon by an infinite number.

[Oliphant]

Do something with this tree that makes The Eclipse Itself with +9 necro (a staff) better than an using an Alchemical Orb +9 necro set up (example main hand and orb that tends to win out) on a Sorc please (somehow). Would be cool and fit the theme.

Maybe add a bonus +1 to a +3 Spell DC ability if you wielding spellcasting staff. Generally giving anything, even a bone of flavor, for spellcasting staffs is cool.

[o2t4f]

It is not that I do not know how to do really good dps as a wizard.
It is that I find it just a tad offensive the only good way to play a (high-reaper) dps wizard is to literally not take anything from the wizard trees and go inquisitive.

PM is not working on way to much stuff.
Archmage is a joke of a tree and there is no support for force-based spellcasters in epics. It neither has the damage, nor the survivability for reaper.
EK does not get the defenses it would need to go toe-to-toe with high reaper mobs. It works in low reaper and while leveling, to be fair. But I for one am a bit miffed that the only semi-working wizard is a melee. We have enough other, better melee classes already. If I want to play melee my first choice is not going to be EK. And even if you do play EK, you'll be in a melee ED, not a caster one...
Inquisitive does good damage, even on a wizard. Heck, inquisitive does good damage on basically anything.

Does it work? Yes.
Should it be the only viable option? No.

And why invest time into a tree that will not benefit PMs at all? It won't make them viable. It won't help their problems. It will be used by the occasional noob as a trap and by cold-based casters. For whom it is fine - the tree will work great for sorcs and cold-druids, not argument there. But the negative-energy stuff is pointless. Either make a separate, dedicated negative energy tree which solves these mechanical problems (bypass, death ward...) or solve these problems in the base class (pm tree, maybe dd tree) or maybe just remove the negative energy component from magus - make it cold only.

I didn't mean get ranged power to go inquisitive. I meant get Ranged power to go shiradi caster. 35 points in archmage, 12 in vistani, and rest depends on split, so some pm for healing and all that. Better than inquisitive wizard. Something along these lines:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6441530