U51 Preview 2: Shadowdancer

[Vorachtin]

This tree is a big step down in usefulness and power from what is currently on live. I thought this revamp was to make the trees better? This tree and dreadnaught are just really bad. Dreadnaught is bad on live, and somehow even worse for update 51.

Nah they took a **** and are spoon feeding us telling us its puddin. Level gating, silly portal **** to unlock EDs and confuse new players. I see 2-3 viable builds with the changes, everything else seems underwhelming at best. Shadowdancer being one of the gutted trees makes me a sad panda. They did some ED work not to long ago and knocked it out of the park I.E. fatesinger on live right now is amazing, change for the sake of change and some desire to remove all player power and fun is this resulting steaming goo pile.

[Hawkwier]

This tree is a big step down in usefulness and power from what is currently on live. I thought this revamp was to make the trees better? This tree and dreadnaught are just really bad. Dreadnaught is bad on live, and somehow even worse for update 51.

Agreed - the outcome for toons overall should better or at least even, not worse - there are numerous examples of minor and more significant nerfs throughout the trees. some, to my mind, are just plain petty! This update wasn't billed as a cluster-nerf, afaik, so what gives, Devs? Haven't we had enough nerfs to satisfy you over the past few updates already??? Change your attitude on this please! Cut out the petty nerfs!

[Hawkwier]

Another iteration, another missed chance to rectify the meld nerf... aaaand another rant required...

If you really must nerf Meld to death, at least make it a mantle and not an epic strike (both over-restrictive bad ideas in general btw) - even in context epic strike Meld's just ridiculous! And if you really are intent on removing it as an effective "OMG" moment from live (which its happily been for YEARS without apparent issue) by nerfing it all the way down to 15%, make that permanent, instead of us hitting yet another button every 15 seconds for 10s up-time, like zombies. That is ZERO fun!

The decision making on this particular ability has been absolutely woeful imo - Please at least make an attempt to make this usable, even if you must find it necessary to satisfy your apparent need for nerfing everything you can in this cluster-nerf of an update.


Honestly, for good or ill, I really do start out trying to be positive and giving feedback I hope is constructive on stuff like Fury, trying to figure out points and where to spend them, etc...


...aaand then I come across this sort of garbage and it really frustrates the hell out of me! Nowadays I can at least get over it easily enough by going away and not thinking about the game for a while, and I'm finding that ever easier to do.

Think about that though... a 10-year+ player, pretty much a daily addict for most of that time until recently when this reared over the horizon, who is now actively happier by NOT EVEN thinking about (never mind playing, and as for paying for? Laughable notion right now!) your game anymore because of this nonsense - Is that doing a good, customer focused, job, d'you think? Really???

Of course YMMV and I'm only speaking for myself, but it's getting to the point I'm not really all that sure why I even care any more. I've no idea what you're playing at with this round of cluster-nerf oriented garbage Devs. Even the good stuff is riddled with wee petty minor nerfs here and there, as if you just can't bring yourselves to give the players a break. Enough is enough, for goodness sakes! Change course, please!

Anyway, Rant over. I'm away to play something I actually enjoy for a bit. Only saving grace is there is still a wee part of me that does wish that could be DDO, like it used to be for so many years, but even that's diminishing with every nerf you pump out here and the fun i have elsewhere. I still care (naturally, or I wouldn't even be wasting my time here), but I'm really not sure why I do any more.

[Malex]

You can get 6 sneak dice ( 3 from cores, 3 from shroud ). A rogue can probably get about 4 times that many sneak dice. However spellcasters can get a force spellpower which can be multiple times higher than the melee power of the rogue. So it's not a complete rout though I'd probably still give the rogue the advantage.

And yes the level gating is extremely unkind to illusionists in this tree. As from level 20-22 you'll have exactly 1 sneak die. You probably want to hit the magus tree as the +3 DC to fear spells is available at level 20 and way more valuable to a phantasmal killer illusionist than anything in the first 2 Tiers of this tree.

Yeah you are right that I missed 3 dice, but still, we are talking 6d6 (at most, and not at 20) scaling with force spell power (which is the least supported of the bunch) which is also up only 10 sec out of 15.
If you literally take the alternative epic strike and hit with your sceptre, you deal 30d6 scaling with melee power, comparatively.
But also you have to compare it to all other epic strikes.
And, as an example, the basic dragon breath, at 20, does 20d6.
And it can be upgraded to, at 30, 60d6 AoE. With a "good" spell power to back it up and synergies with other destinies for the same spell power (primal, magus, exalted, depending on which one it is).
Here, I reaper, 1d6 at 20, 6d6 at 30 if taking the shroud.

There is nothing in wizard, or other epic destinies, or itemization that can make this viable even for hybrids, if you want to take weird


Dark imbuement is a really cool concept, my favorite concept of the whole destinies rework, but it falls flat in the end because there is not way to make it viable

[Joldahks]

Spellcasting: Your Sneak Attack dice are now applied to your harmful spellcasts. Your spells deal 1d2/4/6 Untyped damage per Sneak Attack Dice you have (scaling with Force/Untyped spellpower). This may only trigger once per spellcast per monster, so multi-hit spells will only have one additional damage value.

I love the Arcane Trickster flavor this gives! Maybe we could fit in somewhere in this ED an increase to the range on Disable Device/Open Lock? I dunno, may be a pipe dream but Arcane Trickster is my favorite class!

[elvesunited]

Yeah you are right that I missed 3 dice, but still, we are talking 6d6 (at most, and not at 20) scaling with force spell power (which is the least supported of the bunch) which is also up only 10 sec out of 15.
If you literally take the alternative epic strike and hit with your sceptre, you deal 30d6 scaling with melee power, comparatively.
But also you have to compare it to all other epic strikes.
And, as an example, the basic dragon breath, at 20, does 20d6.
And it can be upgraded to, at 30, 60d6 AoE. With a "good" spell power to back it up and synergies with other destinies for the same spell power (primal, magus, exalted, depending on which one it is).
Here, I reaper, 1d6 at 20, 6d6 at 30 if taking the shroud.

There is nothing in wizard, or other epic destinies, or itemization that can make this viable even for hybrids, if you want to take weird


Dark imbuement is a really cool concept, my favorite concept of the whole destinies rework, but it falls flat in the end because there is not way to make it viable

Well the dragon breath is a single cast while the shadowdancer damage is added to every spellcast for 10 out of 15 seconds. ( please make this a toggle ) And if the spell is AOE so is the extra damage.
But yeah it's not competitive with draconic.

Maybe sneak attack dice OR Spell Penetration / 2 to determine the added number?

[JoeCamb02140]

Dire charge was removed as a feat. It's now an Epic Strike given in the LD tree.

Okay, let me rephrase. You cannot exchange the Dire Charge feat for any feat with Fred. If this is how it is going to be when we switch, it is better if every existing toon gets a Lesser Heart of Wood. This needs a bit more looking into.

[Synthetic]

Dark imbuement seems to be way behind this pass - probably because shadowdancer received no attention.

Dark Imbuement ~106(average damage with 30 level) * (1 + RP/100)
Shiradi mantle proc 120(average damage with first 2 proc at 15% chance) * (1+ ( RP * 2/100 )) * 1.5 (due to uptime)

So roughly 3 times as much damage when comparing just the mantle. The SC mantle also gives some great CC, and SC has a good Epic strike for ranged.

For casters

DI - 66.5(avg dmg with 19 dice which is unrealistic for a caster) * (1+ SP/100)
SC Mantel - 240(average damage with first 2 proc at 30% chance) * (1+ SP/100) * 1.5 (due to uptime)

So about 6 times as much damage would be done by the mantle after the SD build used their legendary feat to gain 6 sneak dice losing out on additional spell critical damage and DC. The strike for SC casters is an improved Color Spray so not great, but it does let them take meld.

SD needed some attention in preview 1 but with the huge improvements given to GMOF SC DI etc. it is no longer competitive.

[fabhpk]

So, preview 2 Dark Imbuement text says:

Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per CHARACTER LEVEL Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Preview 1 DI text says:
Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per SNEAK ATTACK DICE in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Which one is correct? Current Lammania text says per sneak attack dice...

[Dnarth]

There is only one place for this ED on top of a heap. Restart....

[Tentaki]

So overall I really like the tree, but I also play a niche Eldritch Knight melee wizard build who can benefit from pretty much everything here. For those who are playing as a straight DC caster or a straight rogue, I think I'd feel like there's a lot of missed opportunity here when there's certain parts of the tree you would never consider taking (e.g., extra spell DCs as a rogue, or extra assassinate DCs as a wizard).

I think it's going to be exceptionally rare for someone to want both spell DCs and assassinate DCs at the same time, so where those two would overlap, what about just adding in some extra multi selectors for both, but with similar themes?

For example, from Tier 4 some multiselectors could be:

* Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs OR +1/2/3 to Assassinate DCs.
* Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. +5 Force/Universal Spellpower OR -10% to assassinate cooldown, +2 to sneak attack hit and damage.

This doesn't need to be for every ability, but I do think that the tree could use with some of these extra options (especially for the tier 4/5 abilities, since investing 20+ points in the tree is a pretty significant investment).

The balance/usefulness is more your wheelhouse than mine, but I think this would give the tree some more universal appeal to rogues or DC casters specifically and eliminate some of the "dead space" that would only apply to one or the other.

[Kielbasa]

So, preview 2 Dark Imbuement text says:

Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per CHARACTER LEVEL Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Preview 1 DI text says:
Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per SNEAK ATTACK DICE in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Which one is correct? Current Lammania text says per sneak attack dice...

Well when I tested it on lama still seems to be tied to sneak attack dice. If the goal is to make that skill only useful for rogue heavy builds great. But if the goal is to open it up to all sorts then the skill is a failure.

[Synthetic]

Dark Imbuement

• on spells only hits 1 target of an AOE spell.
• The range increase for melee is rather nice but one more kobold length would be great if possible.
• The fact that it's not a 100% up time ability makes it difficult to use because you'll be forced to move in and out of range.
• I didn't try it with a two hander/strike through build which could be interesting.
• I can't figure out the damage dice for casting it's higher than stated, but not significantly.

The drop doesn't seem to work.

• I never saw a debuff and I didn't seem to get sneak attack damage after rolling a 20.
• If you have first blood you can get stacks of the shadow strike debuff attacking a red kobold.
• You never get the shadow strike debuff if you don't have first blood. Not sure if that's intended or not.

The wording would suggest maybe but than first blood is a feat tax on the drop rather than the drop being an improvement to first blood.

Shadow Mastery

• States 50% incorporeal which I think is a change from preview 1.

The ability has potential but it's niche which is weird for an epic moment.

Weird

• Does it have a target limit?
• 8s Cool-down assuming it's a bug
• Range is nice

Overall

• Tier 1 - A lot of cost for mostly filler. The 3rd point in each has a good ability but it's expensive. Nothing is great for a caster. For assassin/falconry assassinate DC is a must have.
• Tier 2 - Shadow weaponry, strike and mantle all stand out. The mantle is a point tax for casters at this level, but it's one of the few ways to get sneak dice later. Lithe is good and sleight of hand could be good if it stacks now (didn't test this preview)
• Tier 3 - Good options but expensive. The Mantle gives 3d6 sneak damage but you're now up to 4 points spent for 3d6 sneak damage.
• Tier 4 - The drop stands out, mantle buff - another 3 points for helpless damage at least it's useful, strike improvement but it's such a tiny improvement.
• Tier 5 - Kind of epic moment, finally get a nice buff for mantle without an exorbitant cost, Weird and spell DC no complaints about those.

The tree simply costs to much for what you get. It's probably lagging most other trees in this preview due to it having a lot of competition. Other trees I spent 36/37 points and felt like I got a lot out of them. This tree I spent 41 points and feel like I didn't get as much. I could cut back the point spend but it would be even more anemic. Basically for a caster the tree has become get weird, which was great with it's 8s CD (Bugged). A lot of this has to do with big buffs in DI and Shiradi while this tree remained stagnant.

[draven1]

Convert assassination DC gear to universal spell DC gear.

Make assassinate to use necro DC or illusion DC.

Your "HYBRID" ED now have right position.

If you dont do that, why do we need to slot Assassination DC gear to use ONLY 1 skill?

Why do you insist it's hybrid tree, when both are mutually exclusive?

[Grunthorno]

Will just be going over changes/persisting issues.

------------------------------
Cores:
------------------------------
T1:

Well of Darkness: Loss of 3 fear DCs feels bad as it'll even be hurting weird in t5. Force absorb would be cool otherwise.
------------------------------
T2:

Shadow Weaponry: This is precisely what we asked for. Top tier.

Lithe: Would still be cool to give a bonus to folks wearing cloth.
------------------------------
T3:

------------------------------
T4:

Improved Meld: The +5% still feels insignificant, would still like to make it +10% to make it more of a consideration.
------------------------------
T5:

Just a Taste: Too Expensive compared to other crit multis. Still needs quarterstaff support.

Shadow Mastery: Very nice to see duration increase on the epic moment, however it didn't make meld meldier, would still like to see a bit of an increase on that. (It was a great epic moment in preview one, but with comparison to new lamma2 epic moments, it falls behind.)
------------------------------
Overall: Still pretty great.

[cru121]

Shadow Weaponry: +5/10/15% Strikethrough, +3/6/10% Offhand Strike Chance, +1/2/3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot

What I don't like about this ability is that some fighting styles benefit from two effects here
- THF gets strikethrough and doublestrike
- TWF gets offhand and doublestrike
While other fighting styles get only one effect
- SWF gets doublestrike
- ranged gets doubleshot

This makes it kinda hard to balance, because you either make it too good for styles that benefit from two effects, or too weak for styles that only have one effect.

I suggest this should be a multiselector; and the values should be increased (or changed to 2 AP for full benefit).

[slarden]

Well of Darkness: Loss of 3 fear DCs feels bad as it'll even be hurting weird in t5. Force absorb would be cool otherwise.

It's moved to tier 2 magus.

[JoeCamb02140]

This is what rogues have been saying all along. The drop in DCs for Assassinate from live to this is huge. Even the core abilities give a boost to spellcasting DCs while giving nothing to assassinate.

So overall I really like the tree, but I also play a niche Eldritch Knight melee wizard build who can benefit from pretty much everything here. For those who are playing as a straight DC caster or a straight rogue, I think I'd feel like there's a lot of missed opportunity here when there's certain parts of the tree you would never consider taking (e.g., extra spell DCs as a rogue, or extra assassinate DCs as a wizard).

I think it's going to be exceptionally rare for someone to want both spell DCs and assassinate DCs at the same time, so where those two would overlap, what about just adding in some extra multi selectors for both, but with similar themes?

For example, from Tier 4 some multiselectors could be:

* Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs OR +1/2/3 to Assassinate DCs.
* Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. +5 Force/Universal Spellpower OR -10% to assassinate cooldown, +2 to sneak attack hit and damage.

This doesn't need to be for every ability, but I do think that the tree could use with some of these extra options (especially for the tier 4/5 abilities, since investing 20+ points in the tree is a pretty significant investment).

The balance/usefulness is more your wheelhouse than mine, but I think this would give the tree some more universal appeal to rogues or DC casters specifically and eliminate some of the "dead space" that would only apply to one or the other.

[Gloomfall]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Changes to this tree are in this bright sunny yellow!

It's really telling that after all of the feedback in the previous thread, the only changes that were made are..

An extra 10% Force Absorption for Casters on the Spellpoint Enhancement.
1/2/3% extra Doubleshot on Shadow Weaponry.
10 sec longer duration on the "Epic Moment".

That really says to me that the overall consensus is that "We think Shadowdancer is almost exactly where we want it right now."

And that doesn't really inspire any confidence in me for the future of Shadowdancer.

[Lynnabel]

This is what rogues have been saying all along. The drop in DCs for Assassinate from live to this is huge. Even the core abilities give a boost to spellcasting DCs while giving nothing to assassinate.

News on that front:

Rather than solve this problem here in this tree, we're actually going to be modifying the scaling curve for Assassinate items across the entire game. Right now the top level items cap out at +6 Assassinate DCs, and top level Stunning items cap out at +15. This change would put Assassinate on the same scaling curve that Stunning has, so you'll go up from +6 to +15 from level 29 or 30 items. Note that items will change in place without any necessary interference on your end, and will be adjusted linearly across the entire 1-30 game, so this will result in a DC boost for Rogues in heroic levels as well.

Hopefully this is a more equitable solution than just juicing the heck out of those DCs in SD to make up for lost ground