U51 Preview 2: Shadowdancer

[Lynnabel]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Changes to this tree are in this bright sunny yellow!

Here are the other things that have been adjusted or fixed:

• As we have added additional +3 Melee and Ranged Power to every Epic level you have, the amount of Melee and Ranged power each Core gives in Destinies has been reduced; Shadowdancer now gives +5 Melee Power and +4 Ranged Power per Core. (See the main threads for this preview for details)
• Shadow Strike's debuff reliably works on a natural 20
• This tree no longer erroneously generates Arcane Tokens sometimes

Core 1 (level 20): Shadow Training: You gain the Trapfinding feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +10 Melee Power and +8 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, as well as 5 Force Spellpower and 5 Universal Spellpower. Each core also grants a +1 Epic bonus to all Spell DCs.

Core 3 (level 23): Step Through Shadow: Dimension Door clickie. 2m cooldown.

Core 6 (level 26): The Darkest Luck: You have Evasion, normal Evasion rules apply. If you have Evasion already, you gain Improved Evasion. If you have Improved Evasion already, you no longer fail Reflex Saves automatically by rolling a 1.

Tier 1 (req level 20):

• Stealthy: +1/2/3 Reflex Saves, +2/4/6 hide and move silently. Rank 3: Hide in Plane Sight feat.
• Cover of Darkness: +10/20/30% less threat from all sources. Rank 3: Nightshield permanently
• Well of Darkness: +30/60/100 Spellpoints, Rank 3: +10% Force Absorption
• Assassinate: +2/4/6 Assassinate DCs.
• Technician: +2/4/6 to Search, Spot, Disable Device, Open Lock. Rank 3: If you have the Nimble Fingers feat, +1 sneak attack dice.

Tier 2 (req level 20):

• Shadow Weaponry: +5/10/15% Strikethrough, +3/6/10% Offhand Strike Chance, +1/2/3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot
• Sleight of Hand: +2/4/6 UMD. +25/50/75% damage and healing of your wands, scrolls and other items that cast spells. Adds +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your offensive wands. (yes, this is wand and scroll mastery)
• Shadowform: Shadowdancer Destiny Mantle. +25% sneak speed, +30% enhancement bonus to movement speed. Also grants ghost touch on all attacks. You are also less affected by caster movement penalties (if you have this + mobile spellcasting, this will drop the penalty to roughly 0, letting you cast without any movement disruption)
• Epic Strike: Multiselector:
  
  • Meld into Darkness: Active: Gain 10% uncapped dodge 6/8/10s, cooldown 15 seconds.
  • Dark Imbuement: Active: Imbues your weapons and spellcasts with Evil energies for 6/8/10s, cooldown 15 seconds.
    
    • Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per Sneak Attack Dice in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
    • Spellcasting: Your Sneak Attack dice are now applied to your harmful spellcasts. Your spells deal 1d2/4/6 Untyped damage per Sneak Attack Dice you have (scaling with Force/Untyped spellpower). This may only trigger once per spellcast per monster, so multi-hit spells will only have one additional damage value.
• Lithe: Passive Bonus: +2/4/6 reflex saves, AC and light armor Max Dex Bonus, Rank 3: +5 Force/Universal Spellpower.

Tier 3 (req level 23):

• Depths of Darkness: Your Shadowdancer destiny mantle grants +1/2/3 sneak attack dice and +1/2/3 Spell Penetration.
• Quick Strike: Multiselector:
  
  • Your Quicken metamagic costs 1/2/3 SP less
  • +2/4/6% Doublestrike and Doubleshot
• Grim Precision: Bypass 5/10/15% enemy fortification and 1/2/3% enemy dodge.
• Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment or Abjuration DCs
• Shadowcaster: -10% Spell Cooldowns. +5 Force/Universal Spellpower

Tier 4 (req level 26):

• Pierce the Gloom: +1/2/3 Accuracy, to-hit with Sneak attacks, to-hit while flanking. Rank 3: You gain immunity to Silence, Quell, and Blindness.
• Dark Armor: +2/4/6 PRR and MRR, +3/6/10 Force/Universal Spellpower. Rank 3: Immunity to Energy Drain.
• Dark Mercy: Your shadowdancer mantle now grants +5/10/15% helplessness damage.
• The Drop: When you roll a natural 20 on a melee or ranged attack, you envelop the target in shadow, removing its immunity to Sneak Attack for a short duration, if applicable. If you have the feat First Blood, both this effect and the trigger of First Blood now also applies a Shadow Strike debuff, and First Blood now triggers on Harmful Spellcasts.
  
  • Shadow Strike debuff: -3 Spell Resistance, -3 PRR and -3 MRR per stack. Lasts 12 seconds, stacks drop 1 at a time. Max 3 stacks.
• Multiselector:
  
  • Meld now grants 15% uncapped dodge. When enemies miss you in combat while Meld is active, they are blinded by shadows with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.
  • Dark Imbuement now increases your melee range and reduces the cost of all of your metamagics by 1 each.

Tier 5 (req level 30):

• Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Destiny Mantle: You gain +25% incorp, float as if you had feather fall, +20 hide and move silently, and no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. You also are not automatically detected by monsters with Tremor Sense (aka All-Hearing - this is for Spiders and Ooze), but remain detectable by All-Seeing monsters (like Dragons or Reapers).
• Just a Taste: +1 mult on 19-20 with bows, thrown, crossbows, and finessable melee weapons
• Multiselector:
  
  • Weird: You gain the Weird spell - AoE Phantasmal Killer, scales off Illusion DC. You must be able to cast level 9 spells. Cooldown 60s, SP cost 50 (matches implosion). DC 20 + highest of int/wis/cha + illusion bonuses
  • Consume Shadow: From-Sneak Active attack. Enemy must make a will save vs 20 + highest ability score + assassinate or be permanently cursed with Shadow Loss.
    
    • Shadow Loss. You no longer cast a shadow. (literally. we literally turn their shadow visuals off). In addition, you have -20 PRR, MRR, and Spell Resistance.
• Enhanced Shadowdancer Spell Focus: +1/2/3 Spell DCs
• Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects of Dark Imbuement and Meld into Darkness as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 30 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Known Issues:

• Consume Shadow is not yet implemented
• The All-Hearing portion of Improved Shadowform is not yet implemented

[Assassination]

Core 1 (level 20): Shadow Training: You gain the Trapfinding feat if you didn't have it already. Each core ability including this one grants +10 Melee Power and +8 Ranged Power, +1 Sneak Attack Dice, as well as 5 Force Spellpower and 5 Universal Spellpower. Each core also grants a +1 Epic bonus to all Spell DCs.

Would it be game breaking to also give a +1 epic bonus to assassinate dc per core? I still think meld is weaker than it needs to be, and should be split from dark imbuement.

[Kielbasa]

Would it be game breaking to also give a +1 epic bonus to assassinate dc per core? I still think meld is weaker than it needs to be, and should be split from dark imbuement.

All of the multi selector epic strikes should just grant the player both options and let the player decide when they need the offensive option and when they need to use the defensive one let them put each other on a universal cool down. Its like in heroics some trees make you choose a melee or ranged option and some give you both I'd rather they gave both its more useful and gives agency to the player.

[Assassination]

All of the multi selector epic strikes should just grant the player both options and let the player decide when they need the offensive option and when they need to use the defensive one let them put each other on a universal cool down. Its like in heroics some trees make you choose a melee or ranged option and some give you both I'd rather they gave both its more useful and gives agency to the player.

Giving you both would be great!

[Seph1roth5]

Technician - still need to upgrade 99% of the synergy feats.

Shadow Weaponry - again with the super low numbers. I know we're post stat-squish but 3% doubleshot/strike for 3 points is a blatant DP sink. I think it's utter BS that the trees are purposefully making numbers **** so that you "can" spend points in a lot of abilities.

Dark Imbuement Spellcasting - I love arcane tricketers, but it's pretty difficult to get relevant dice other than from the tree itself. Especially since it only triggers once per spell. Or am I reading this wrong? If you fireball 10 monsters do you just add the sneak attack dice to one of them?

Pierce the Gloom - interesting idea, but immunity to silence/blind/quell is extremely esoteric. And the to hit #s are too low.

The Drop - I like it, but the wording is a bit confusing. One problem is that first blood is a suck feat, but also not really one that "Triggers." so I'm not 100% sure what's going on here. Also, how long is the short duration?

Multiselector - is this part of the Drop or another ability with no name? Not sure if the metamagic reduction is that great. Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't spend a lot of heroic AP on meta reductions? What about increasing the range of spells a bit? Not quite enlarge but something, would fit the theme more.

Consume Shadow - cool idea still, but what's the cooldown on this?

Epic Moments (all) - still hating the 5 min cooldowns.

[HuneyMunster]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Changes to this tree are in this bright sunny yellow!

• Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment: Dissolve into a whorl of shadow, leaving your corporeal form behind. While in this form, you are considered Sneaking and Invisible regardless of what you do. You also gain 3d6 Sneak Attack Dice, 50% Incorporeality, as well as the effects of Dark Imbuement and Meld into Darkness as if they had been fully trained and upgraded. When non-boss enemies miss you in this state, they are slain by their fear, automatically taking a Phantasmal Killer effect with no save. Duration: 30 seconds. Cooldown: 5 minutes.

Shadow Mastery: Epic Moment sounds interesting but a Shadowdancer is not a character that wants to be seen. The Epic Moment seems to want you have run into a room first grabbing all the agro or investing in Intimidate to grab agro from others such as tank builds. It's nice to have for solo play, but DDO is not a single player game. Consume didn't have this issue of needing to be the one that grabs the agro to use. The epic moment is actually more usable on my Sorcerer than my Assassin as I am able to make an intimidation check to grab all agro for maximum effectiveness.

There is also the issue that making you invisible monsters that can't see through invisibility maybe not be able to actually miss you. I've not tested this out.

I am also going to lose 5 Assassinate DC with changes compared to live (2 from Cores and 3 from Dex including twist of fate).

[Ganak]

Pursuant to prior feedback in the lens of my dex based tempest.

I do not feel my dex based tempest has a clean home.

Shadowdancer? I feel a Vistani rogue (and rogue/casters) in general gets more out of it. I feel forced into this.

Fury? I think this destiny is stretched over too many melee styles (Barb, THF, animal form melee, STR TWF). I feel a str based tempest gets more out of it.

[Qezuzu]

You no longer cast a shadow. (literally. we literally turn their shadow visuals off).

Absolute props for the detail touches.

Posting from the context of my Necro Cleric: I like it a lot. Looks like really fun tree. A lot of the abilities just seem fun and less like "here's your number increases" like some of the old epic trees (especially Magister.)

[Saekee]

Lynn I posted this late in the other preview thread, but for Meld--since so many rogue players are saddened by the loss of its former version--would you consider decreasing the cooldown for Improved Uncanny Dodge as part of its new form?

[JoeCamb02140]

It inspires little faith, that every time they post this, Improved Shadowform gives a measly 10%, and then they claim "Oh that's just a typo." It seems that typo has the old "Meld into Darkness" going for it because no editor can seem to hit it.

No changes to the Assassinate DCs in this build which means it was left mostly untouched. Please make the DCs to Assassinate commensurate with the ones for DCs for spells. If you are not going to do that, at least give us a reason why.

Meld is just as weak as before, and Consume is back in its single target underwhelming debuff. How about making Consume at the very least a toggle so that your sneak attacks always consume? That would make it a little bit more useful. It's not like you can sneak attack that often in combat. Make it a 30 second toggle like "Shadow Training II" is on live. I mean all you are giving is a PRR/MRR version of the Tier 4 Assassin Enhancement "Weakening Strikes."

This still feels like a spellcaster tree, more than a sneaky melee tree.

[fabhpk]

So, preview 2 Dark Imbuement text says:

Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per CHARACTER LEVEL Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Preview 1 DI text says:
Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per SNEAK ATTACK DICE in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Which one is correct? Current Lammania text says per sneak attack dice...

[Kielbasa]

So, preview 2 Dark Imbuement text says:

Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per CHARACTER LEVEL Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Preview 1 DI text says:
Melee/Ranged: You deal 1d2/4/6 per SNEAK ATTACK DICE in Untyped damage on hit (scaling with Melee or Ranged Power, or Force spellpower if its higher), and on a vorpal strike, your attacks blind enemies with no save. This blind lasts 5 seconds and can only apply to each monster once per 60 seconds.

Which one is correct? Current Lammania text says per sneak attack dice...

Well when I tested it on lama still seems to be tied to sneak attack dice. If the goal is to make that skill only useful for rogue heavy builds great. But if the goal is to open it up to all sorts then the skill is a failure.

[Synthetic]

Dark Imbuement

• on spells only hits 1 target of an AOE spell.
• The range increase for melee is rather nice but one more kobold length would be great if possible.
• The fact that it's not a 100% up time ability makes it difficult to use because you'll be forced to move in and out of range.
• I didn't try it with a two hander/strike through build which could be interesting.
• I can't figure out the damage dice for casting it's higher than stated, but not significantly.

The drop doesn't seem to work.

• I never saw a debuff and I didn't seem to get sneak attack damage after rolling a 20.
• If you have first blood you can get stacks of the shadow strike debuff attacking a red kobold.
• You never get the shadow strike debuff if you don't have first blood. Not sure if that's intended or not.

The wording would suggest maybe but than first blood is a feat tax on the drop rather than the drop being an improvement to first blood.

Shadow Mastery

• States 50% incorporeal which I think is a change from preview 1.

The ability has potential but it's niche which is weird for an epic moment.

Weird

• Does it have a target limit?
• 8s Cool-down assuming it's a bug
• Range is nice

Overall

• Tier 1 - A lot of cost for mostly filler. The 3rd point in each has a good ability but it's expensive. Nothing is great for a caster. For assassin/falconry assassinate DC is a must have.
• Tier 2 - Shadow weaponry, strike and mantle all stand out. The mantle is a point tax for casters at this level, but it's one of the few ways to get sneak dice later. Lithe is good and sleight of hand could be good if it stacks now (didn't test this preview)
• Tier 3 - Good options but expensive. The Mantle gives 3d6 sneak damage but you're now up to 4 points spent for 3d6 sneak damage.
• Tier 4 - The drop stands out, mantle buff - another 3 points for helpless damage at least it's useful, strike improvement but it's such a tiny improvement.
• Tier 5 - Kind of epic moment, finally get a nice buff for mantle without an exorbitant cost, Weird and spell DC no complaints about those.

The tree simply costs to much for what you get. It's probably lagging most other trees in this preview due to it having a lot of competition. Other trees I spent 36/37 points and felt like I got a lot out of them. This tree I spent 41 points and feel like I didn't get as much. I could cut back the point spend but it would be even more anemic. Basically for a caster the tree has become get weird, which was great with it's 8s CD (Bugged). A lot of this has to do with big buffs in DI and Shiradi while this tree remained stagnant.

[draven1]

Convert assassination DC gear to universal spell DC gear.

Make assassinate to use necro DC or illusion DC.

Your "HYBRID" ED now have right position.

If you dont do that, why do we need to slot Assassination DC gear to use ONLY 1 skill?

Why do you insist it's hybrid tree, when both are mutually exclusive?

[Grunthorno]

Will just be going over changes/persisting issues.

------------------------------
Cores:
------------------------------
T1:

Well of Darkness: Loss of 3 fear DCs feels bad as it'll even be hurting weird in t5. Force absorb would be cool otherwise.
------------------------------
T2:

Shadow Weaponry: This is precisely what we asked for. Top tier.

Lithe: Would still be cool to give a bonus to folks wearing cloth.
------------------------------
T3:

------------------------------
T4:

Improved Meld: The +5% still feels insignificant, would still like to make it +10% to make it more of a consideration.
------------------------------
T5:

Just a Taste: Too Expensive compared to other crit multis. Still needs quarterstaff support.

Shadow Mastery: Very nice to see duration increase on the epic moment, however it didn't make meld meldier, would still like to see a bit of an increase on that. (It was a great epic moment in preview one, but with comparison to new lamma2 epic moments, it falls behind.)
------------------------------
Overall: Still pretty great.

[slarden]

Well of Darkness: Loss of 3 fear DCs feels bad as it'll even be hurting weird in t5. Force absorb would be cool otherwise.

It's moved to tier 2 magus.

[cru121]

Shadow Weaponry: +5/10/15% Strikethrough, +3/6/10% Offhand Strike Chance, +1/2/3% Doublestrike and Doubleshot

What I don't like about this ability is that some fighting styles benefit from two effects here
- THF gets strikethrough and doublestrike
- TWF gets offhand and doublestrike
While other fighting styles get only one effect
- SWF gets doublestrike
- ranged gets doubleshot

This makes it kinda hard to balance, because you either make it too good for styles that benefit from two effects, or too weak for styles that only have one effect.

I suggest this should be a multiselector; and the values should be increased (or changed to 2 AP for full benefit).

[Gloomfall]

Disclaimer

Everything seen on the preview server, Lamannia, is not final and is subject to change or removal before live release.

Changes to this tree are in this bright sunny yellow!

It's really telling that after all of the feedback in the previous thread, the only changes that were made are..

An extra 10% Force Absorption for Casters on the Spellpoint Enhancement.
1/2/3% extra Doubleshot on Shadow Weaponry.
10 sec longer duration on the "Epic Moment".

That really says to me that the overall consensus is that "We think Shadowdancer is almost exactly where we want it right now."

And that doesn't really inspire any confidence in me for the future of Shadowdancer.

[DYWYPI]

Assassins rarely encumber themselves with more than they require for the task at hand, and certainly never with anything that might have sentimental value or might serve to identify them should they die in the execution of their task.

Successfully casting 'Find Traps'; is more than adequate for a Character to temporarily Search for traps that are higher than DC 20 without requiring the Trapfinding feat. As I've explained several times in the past, e.g. [Post #67]. There's hardly been any feedback supporting having Trapfinding within the Shadowdancer cores. I suggest you remove the Trapfinding feat from the core.

With the new (mal)functioning 'Improved Shadowform', you CANNOT pass through enemies when you tumble. Whereas with current 'Shadow Form' on live that useful functionally is available.' Assassins don't like being hemmed in; being able to tumble through mobs, gives an escape route or allows one to position for sneak attack.

I was under the impression the new "Improved Shadowform" was also meant to be useful for sneaky rogues. Clearly being able to pass though enemies' is very useful with 'Shadow Form'. Whereas in the new version you have some mostly pointless 'float over' - a niche - trap type function; "Tier Five: Improved Shadowform", bonus where you can avoid triggering both Pressure plate or Bear traps. Obviously is not meant for the benefit of supportive Rogues.

Tier 5 (req level 30):
[...]
Improved Shadowform: Adds to your Destiny Mantle: [...] no longer trigger pressure plate or bear traps. ...

The avoiding triggering both Bear traps and Pressure plates doesn't seem to function correctly or that description is misleading...

When you're shackled to the shadow and we're ghosts.

The above screenshot was taken inside the 'The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar'. I didn't reveal that 'Pressure plate' via Search. I just used [T5] "Shadowform" to float over the object - obviously; it revealed and "triggered" and tried to damage me. I'm not sure what would happen if my Reflex save had failed, i.e. I'm not any wiser as to whether or not I'd still take damage from the Pressure plate.

Pressure plate in action.

That clearly visible trap (revealed by just floating over it) is certainly attempting to damage me in that combat log. Testing in a different quest; I floated over a few 'concealed' Bear traps and those didn't reveal. However, when I used Search (exposed the trap) and floated over the Bear trap, again it attempted to damage me. It seems like you've made a lot of effort adding that new function, which has very little value or practical purpose, and yet dropped a useful 'tumble though enemy' feature. :-/

[Seph1roth5]

I've pointed out numerous times in numerous lamannias that trapfinding was utterly pointless but no one cared lol. Not sure if people think it actually lets you disable or what. Would definitely like it to get the big boot and something else take it's place.