You may not understand the upcoming ED-System

[DRoark]

Yeah, I have to agree. They could have gone in many directions to improve the system. Such removing the ED toggles entirely (unneeded) and lowering serverside calculations.
You don't forget any TR skill (like +30HP, heal amp, etc), but you somehow forget EVERY Epic skill? (Little Timmy remembers +6 Ranged Damage, but forgets +3% Doubleshot)?

Instead, we get 12 MORE Toggles (still unneeded), a gated level system, no fix to the Augments (L30 Augs from L29 gear, derp!), some Filigrees still don't work (Seriously??),
reduced access to trees without Twists, some Feat removal, loss of (6) more Stat points apparently, and an overly-niched ED adjustment.

When we said there was many directions they could go, Backwards and Down wasn't the one we were hoping for.

[blarhblarhblarh]

Understood it all plus a few things. Wasting manpower in the wrong place and they probably already have one extra expansion now a proper one with raid and everything to make all obsolete again. If the changes where good 90% of the playerbase would cheer for it and you that don´t work for the company wouldn´t be needed to defend it´s decisions.

Imagine that your are in the last year of your highschool and the government set a bill to make all the courses you did useless and then put a kid aged with less than a half the time you studied to change the grade curriculum. And after he invalidates all your books he will try to seel new ones that are actually the old books with a new brigutr cape.This is what is happening. All the lost power will be sold to the players again in lvl 35 or 40. They are limiting playstyles of a game that don´t have many players, taking meld out of the game will limit 80% of groups that can play reaper today. And they know it, they have problems with coding but they know what they are doing and who will take the blame when/if it goes south.

They could get rid of ED and give us proper levels. Proper spells. They could work in quality of life changes. Player retaining. Actually listen to the players and taking a hint. Once I leaved DDO cause the hamster wheel of reincarnation, came back in the pandemics but all went south after feywild that still unfinished. But hey, they launched a great horse, my dragonborn can´t use Aspect of the Wild Hunt without leak, they launched the less played race and iconic that don´t fit anything and shifter can´t hold a greataxe and the barbarian is the less worst class for it.

So why not listen to the players? many with 30+ years of D&D and with thousands of dollars spent in DDO. Why treat us like lol or fortinite players? having an older playerbase should have some pros, the cons is that we all need ui scale or a way to see and read in the game cause eye fatigue is an huge issue with players.

[blarhblarhblarh]

[QUOTE=blarhblarhblarh;6470606]Understood it all plus a few things. Wasting manpower in the wrong place and they probably already have one extra expansion now a proper one with raid and everything to make all obsolete again. If the changes where good 90% of the playerbase would cheer for it and you that don´t work for the company wouldn´t be needed to defend it´s decisions.

Imagine that your are in the last year of your highschool and the government set a bill to make all the courses you did useless and then put a kid aged with less than a half the time you studied to change the grade curriculum. And after he invalidates all your books he will try to seel new ones that are actually the old books with a new brigutr cape.This is what is happening. All the lost power will be sold to the players again in lvl 35 or 40. They are limiting playstyles of a game that don´t have many players, taking meld out of the game will limit 80% of groups that can play reaper today. And they know it, they have problems with coding but they know what they are doing and who will take the blame when/if it goes south.

They could get rid of ED and give us proper levels. Proper spells. They could work in quality of life changes. Player retaining. Actually listen to the players and taking a hint. Once I leaved DDO cause the hamster wheel of reincarnation, came back in the pandemics but all went south after feywild that still unfinished. But hey, they launched a great horse, my dragonborn can´t use Aspect of the Wild Hunt without leak, they launched the less played race and iconic that don´t fit anything and shifter can´t hold a greataxe and the barbarian is the less worst class for it.

So why not listen to the players? many with 30+ years of D&D and with thousands of dollars spent in DDO. Why treat us like lol or fortinite players? having an older playerbase should have some pros, the cons is that we all need ui scale or a way to see and read in the game cause eye fatigue is an huge issue with players.

BTW they are also making reaper more dificult without working on reapers and raising the gap between old and new players.

[blarhblarhblarh]

[QUOTE=blarhblarhblarh;6470607][QUOTE=blarhblarhblarh;6470606]Understood it all plus a few things. Wasting manpower in the wrong place and they probably already have one extra expansion now a proper one with raid and everything to make all obsolete again. If the changes where good 90% of the playerbase would cheer for it and you that don´t work for the company wouldn´t be needed to defend it´s decisions.

Imagine that your are in the last year of your highschool and the government set a bill to make all the courses you did useless and then put a kid aged with less than a half the time you studied to change the grade curriculum. And after he invalidates all your books he will try to seel new ones that are actually the old books with a new brigutr cape.This is what is happening. All the lost power will be sold to the players again in lvl 35 or 40. They are limiting playstyles of a game that don´t have many players, taking meld out of the game will limit 80% of groups that can play reaper today. And they know it, they have problems with coding but they know what they are doing and who will take the blame when/if it goes south.

They could get rid of ED and give us proper levels. Proper spells. They could work in quality of life changes. Player retaining. Actually listen to the players and taking a hint. Once I leaved DDO cause the hamster wheel of reincarnation, came back in the pandemics but all went south after feywild that still unfinished. But hey, they launched a great horse, my dragonborn can´t use Aspect of the Wild Hunt without leak, they launched the less played race and iconic that don´t fit anything and shifter can´t hold a greataxe and the barbarian is the less worst class for it.

So why not listen to the players? many with 30+ years of D&D and with thousands of dollars spent in DDO. Why treat us like lol or fortinite players? having an older playerbase should have some pros, the cons is that we all need ui scale or a way to see and read in the game cause eye fatigue is an huge issue with players.

BTW they are also making reaper more dificult without working on reapers and raising the gap between old and new players.

I wish to see the designers run R10 with first lifers to prove it´s possible. Even an R8 would satisfy me before launching EACH destinie separated so they would have time to fix all bugs one by one.

[Oliphant]

If this is a no opinions thread then pretty much the whole OP is moot then.

[Pandjed]

If this is a no opinions thread then pretty much the whole OP is moot then.

Well, it only takes ten minutes and one user to escalate things. My intention with the threat is to make people have their opinions for the right reasons, not to fan them, and I made the wish to not use this as another front of the endless coming flood of "I'M STINKING FURIOUS AND I LET EVERYONE KNOWS" post, even though I had little hope.
This may fall somewhere between not reading well, not caring, or active trolling. I don't know. ¯\_(?)_/¯

So many unneeded rants, that people will probably read, while the actual topic "You may see the whole thing in a wrong light" is replaced by "Why don't they do this and that, and whatsoever" and the like. I'd really prefer if people would open their own threads for that.

I'd be happy if someone would take my points and critizise them or bring another angle to it or to tell me, how this may have changed their approach to the whole topic. Like I said before, I don't really care what these individuals think of the changes, I just want them to do their (dis)like for the right reasons.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, it only takes ten minutes and one user to escalate things. My intention with the threat is to make people have their opinions for the right reasons, not to fan them, and I made the wish to not use this as another front of the endless coming flood of "I'M STINKING FURIOUS AND I LET EVERYONE KNOWS" post, even though I had little hope.
This may fall somewhere between not reading well, not caring, or active trolling. I don't know. ¯\_(?)_/¯

So many unneeded rants, that people will probably read, while the actual topic "You may see the whole thing in a wrong light" is replaced by "Why don't they do this and that, and whatsoever" and the like. I'd really prefer if people would open their own threads for that.

I'd be happy if someone would take my points and critizise them or bring another angle to it or to tell me, how this may have changed their approach to the whole topic. Like I said before, I don't really care what these individuals think of the changes, I just want them to do their (dis)like for the right reasons.

I’m interested in where you get the 8 more points when going to lvl 32 you have a citation for this?

[slarden]

Well, it only takes ten minutes and one user to escalate things. My intention with the threat is to make people have their opinions for the right reasons

What basis do you have for assuming people have opinions for the wrong reasons? It appears to be complete speculation on your part.

This may fall somewhere between not reading well, not caring, or active trolling. I don't know. ¯\_(?)_/¯

The forums represent a very wide range of playstyles while discord tends to represent a smaller range of playstyles mostly trying to prop up top-tier builds. The dev group seems to be taking more feedback from discord so it's understandable that people with differing playstyles will be more vocal about the changes impacting them.

A good example is shadowdancer. A solo rogue is losing alot of tools with U51 while a raiding/r10 grouping rogue is mostly benefiting. So obviously the people losing from these changes are complaining while the playstyles winning are trying to shoot down the discussion by criticizing the people raising issues and calling people complainers, or in your case you referred to it as "active trolling" in the quote above. That approach seems to be working very well on discord from what I can tell.

I don't solo with my assassin much but I certainly understand the reasons for the complaints and they are well-thought out and reasonable.

Other things like the removal of divine wrath, arcane tempest, self-healing in exalted angel, etc. are obviously going to negatively impact some builds more than others - mostly builds that need a boost rather than over-powered builds.

Overall U51 seems like a mixture of gold nuggets and manure to me. I like many of the things I see but I see so many things that don't make sense from a balance perspective. Some of the things being taken away are baffling while some of the things being added seems like a successful con-job from a narrow set of players.

[Oliphant]

¯\_(?)_/¯

¯\_(:/)_/¯

[magaiti]

¯\_(:/)_/¯

:shrug:
¯\_("/)_/¯

[DaviMOC]

You know Pandjed , there is alot of points that I agree with you. I do believe the new system is for the better. The game is mutating to fix flaws that it had since forever.
And us the playerbase got used to it.

Us the player base got used to abuse the system flaws and also to exploit its bugs.

Is not a cool design choice( not a choice at all) to have almost every character doing r7+ with a twisted Meld.
Is not a cool design choice( not a choice at all) to have almost every melee character using the same lvl 29 feat dire charge.
Is not a cool design choice( not a choice at all) to have every casting capable character exploiting Tsunami bug.

Is not nice to have a system that trys to enforce the trinity system but it cant sustain it.

There is alot more and those are just a few.

The new system is good for:

-Achieving a more horizontal balanced gameplay
-Reducing the gap beteween new/alt characters to old main ones without invalidating the seek for progress and power
-Making some playstyles more viable and to promote new ones
-Promoting teamplay in a MMORPG
-Making progress in epic levels more meaningful than changing gear at milestone levels.
-Reducing the gap beteween Class Fantasy Builds(RP builds) x Effective Power Builds


However to achieve it, changes all over the boards are needed and those may hurt the experience of many. Playing the old way for so long got us used to its flaws ands exploits.
Nothing new comes perfect at the start and I do believe the new epics will mature over time but I dont think our playerbase have the patience to wait for it or adapt.


Pandjed, while I do agree that folks are getting blinded by what they are loosing and not seeing the new possibilities and how the changes will work as a whole the new system DOES have its flaws and we should not dismiss almost every complain as you doing . Also everything is opinion based even what you said. So if you dont want it dont say it XD.

Baddies about the new ED in my opinion are :

- The new system is more flexible while building characters but less while playing those. Like fighters and barbarians. While you can specialize in any kind of weapons and playstyle as a fighter you are mostly locked on your weapon of choice during the gameplay. Barbarians are not as build flexible but while at THF it can easly swap beteween blunt, slashing or any oportunity need, the only requirement is that the weapon to have keen on itself.

- Not being able to swap EDs fast and on the fly. Even if the cost for resetting comes to be symbolic on live takes time and energy to redistribute points. I really hope for a Dual Spec functionality to be introduced soon. That would help badly at the lack of Tanks and Healers in a game that is trying to enforce the trinity system.

- Forcing people to relearn the game even knowing its needed to achive greater goals, the backlash is heavy and it hurts the game itself as people may not wait to see the healing and growth. ( WHile I still think that this process is needed)


All this are my controversial opinions only based on what I've read here in the forums and played in Lamma and I may be completly wrong but please dont be a angry mob, we are all united by the same hobby.

[Pandjed]

[...]please dont be a angry mob, we are all united by the same hobby.

Great attitude. And yes, there are certainly ups and downs to the new system, and while I like to believe that it'll end up better (and don't have some glaring design flaws which personally irks me), I also have some bone to pick with several aspects. But we get the system the devs envisioned in a team effort and some counceling with the player council and the user base later.

I’m interested in where you get the 8 more points when going to lvl 32 you have a citation for this?

Only from context. Here the general rule:

As you level up beyond level 20, you will earn Destiny Points that you can spend in these ED trees. Epic Levels now display their experience in Ranks, just like Heroic levels do. Each point is earned at each Rank of an Epic Level, which means that each Epic Level corresponds to 4 Destiny Points. The 5th rank of each Epic Level is the level itself, as it is in Heroics. This means that you'll earn Destiny Points at a steady rate rather than in large chunks every 5 ranks.

[...]

Core 4-6: Will eventually be available at levels higher than 30. Exact breakdown TBD.

Means, that the ED-system gives 4 points per level starting with 20, and that the system already has a level cap increase in mind, otherwise they wouldn't have added the "Core 4-6" into the notes. That this will be the system going forward level 31+ is also apparent here.

There used to be another quote (iirc from Lynn), which refuted the statement, that there will be another system above the current cap with words like "This would be the opposite approach of what we're planning". Maybe it was deleted because of reasons (too much info, not wanted to be nailed on it, not wanting to escalate things), but as you mingle in many of the more heated threads (which I noticed after searching for the quote), you may also have read it when it was still there.

More (like the intentional for more horizontal growth, etc.) comes from older previews.

[AebroKomatme]

Whoops, bad wording there, I corrected it (most likely the time when I wrote it), and I rewrote that "might be wrong"-part in hope that I caught it better. I mean, "You can either agree with me or be wrong" has a nice ring, but definitely not what I meant. :P

To cut short: I don't want this a discussion thread whether you like the changes or not (there are dozens of threads to comment on that, including the ones from the devs).

This is more meant to help people understand the standards to make their judgements, helping to overcome some narrowmindness (like comparing new tree vs old tree without taking into account that you can put stuff into other trees; forgetting that this is meant to be carried over to the level cap; the importance of player choice beyond the destiny itself; etc.)

So basically, if nobody answers to it, it's fine. If it helps people to get to the right perspective and judge the ED-system and trees for what they are, instead of what they aren't (based on prejudices, not understanding of their design, or a "that's it and nothing will come"-attitude), then it's great, and it won't matter to me whether they like them or not, or it runs counter to my own opinion.

So, not a “discussion” per se, but more like a “I’m talking and this is how things are,” thread. Gotcha.

It’s also ironic that you speak of others’ prejudices when yours are so plainly evident here.

[magaiti]

OP, you may not understan the meaning of may not
https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/may-not

[Looting_Bin]

OP, you may not understan the meaning of may not
https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/may-not

That is a cute attempt at an insult but that is according to Legal definitions not general definition.

May:
1.expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
2.expressing permission.
"may I ask a few questions?"
The OP was obviously using the world "may" by its first definition.

Not:
1.used with an auxiliary verb or “be” to form the negative.
"he would not say"

So if we break it down to show his intent. We easily see how he would be saying its based on language not legal definitions. Maybe we could have move constructive conversations and be taken serious by the DEV's if we didn't cherry pick parts of a whole (taken out of context) to support fighting our opposing views? Maybe, just maybe, a unified and learned way of speaking our voice will be clearly heard? But that is your choice to have something to benefit others (and yourself) or not.

[Thar]

Trading in your cool high school hot rod for a family sedan may be easier and needed but it doesn't make the drive more fun or was maybe even necessary.

[jskinner937]

I agree, the old system was poorly designed and no real thought was put into the future (like the pre-nerf sharn/feywild/etc loot). This system will make leveling more interesting because you get to spend points and advance at every level. Can you imagine if heroics was like epic? Getting all your AP at level 1? I am sure that some builds will no longer work but new ones will replace them. This game is designed on re-building your character on a whim with the current TR process.

I love spending my free racial points at level 1 honestly.
And honestly I don’t spend the time each level to spend my AP. Usually it’s certain points.

I think the ED system was awesome when it was introduced. I loved the format and it was much easier to understand than the pre U19 enhancement system. But no consideration was put into further epic levels beyond 24. That’s what broke it.

The biggest issue with the change, like many have said…is paying for content, EDs, exp pots, calls of destiny, etc and now the value is up in smoke. It’s like if you bought a 80” Plasma TV and the manufacturer recalled it, but only replaced it with a 19” black and white.

[FengXian]

I love spending my free racial points at level 1 honestly.
And honestly I don’t spend the time each level to spend my AP. Usually it’s certain points.

I think the ED system was awesome when it was introduced. I loved the format and it was much easier to understand than the pre U19 enhancement system. But no consideration was put into further epic levels beyond 24. That’s what broke it.

The biggest issue with the change, like many have said…is paying for content, EDs, exp pots, calls of destiny, etc and now the value is up in smoke. It’s like if you bought a 80” Plasma TV and the manufacturer recalled it, but only replaced it with a 19” black and white.

Exactly. But people wanna pretend it's all good and SSG is sure as hell ok with that lol.

[Zakharov]

I think people understand it well enough, they just don't like many of the decisions made. Some features seem at odds with their own stated design goals.

For example - one stated design goal was fixing the problem that new players must play in off destinies for quite a while before they can finally play their intended destiny.
I agree completely that's a huge problem - new players must grind through a lot before they can finally "play their character".

However, part of their revamp locks iconic abilities behind higher lvl gates than before. So they just replaced one problem with another - before players could not "play their character" until they past a certain point. But once past that point, they could "play their character" forever, even through multiple ETRs.

With the new system, players who always TR at 30 will simply never, ever be able to "play their character". That's just a horrible design and really punishes everyone who did not get all their ETRs in before the update.


Not to mention that raising the lvl cap is the absolute worst design choice possible in a game with so few people already spread out over such a wide lvl range.