You may not understand the upcoming ED-System

[Pandjed]

After reading the notes, testing some stuff, and returning to the forums, I somehow got the feeling, that many arguments in these forums may stem from a severe lack of understanding of the new system. That's natural, I guess, as whenever something new replaces the old, it's in the nature of people to compare them, even though they're different to the core and only share superficial similarities. Like when they change the dessert in the canteen from apples to bananas. Will you compare apples to bananas? Probably, even though they're two very different kinds of fruit, which happens to fill in the same role: Being a dessert in the canteen.

Hoping that it will help some of you, I wrote some points about the new system, which may give you a new look on this, a better understanding, if you're open-minded. Because I can imagine, that a lot of people already made their opinion and they only look for arguments, that either confirm their believes, or that oppose them, so that they can write another comment to let out their frustrations...
Let's see how many of those will post here.

Now I'll begin the actual meat of this post:

1.) The new system is for the level cap increase
While I don't want that increase, that's the reason why we get the new system. Instead of trying to add even more to the game, the devs decided to take a look at the different power systems and then came to the decision to redo the EDs. That means, that whatever you calculate your character will be able to achieve at level 30 is more of a intermediate result. For example, if they increase the level cap next year to level 32, then we have already 8 more points to spend.
As the level cap increase was planned this year and was pushed back in the schedule, of course the devs keep it in mind for several of their decisions regarding the EDs.

2.) Expandability
Aside from the level cap increase, this system is compatible with several ways of expanding and extending it. After the redo of the old EDs come thre more to correlate to artificer, alchemists, and warlocks, which means more fate points, which leads to more destiny points. Same goes for more epic past lives. There may be an option for EDs that don't directly correlate to any class at all, like an Heir of Syberis, which is bades around Dragonmarks, for example.
While these additions aren't planned yet afaik, the new system had been made to accomodate for them.

3.) Another frame
It's important to not compare the new destinies 1:1 to the old ones. Because they both base on very different systems. In the old one, one tree had to do most of the work, while now the work is carried by 1-3 trees, depending on the player's choices. A player can decide to forgo one tree entirely, losing some melee and ranged power to make two trees work. Or can decide to spread and take a lot of low tiers, which enhances the heroic build to be reliable in epics, leaving most epic actives behind.
I mean, I work out my melee builds with at most +60 melee power from the ED, so I won't have problems to forgo another 30 if I believe that the build gets more solid otherwise. Nothing lost for me there, just nothing gained.
Aside of the stronger choice component, the whole design behind it is to actually use more than one tree. So while many numbers may seem off (and I'm sure some are too low), the baseline is to spend 52 in up to 3 trees, instead of 24 in one tree plus some singular enhancements you can eventually add to it.

4.) Not meant to be changed
Do you change their EDs depending on the quest? If yes, do you also respec all of the heroic trees, to be true to it? DDO has a lot of decisions in terms of builds, and some are easier to redo than others (feat exchanges takes a mindflayer reprogramming your brain, after all). The old system had EDs that are straight forward in their roles (US = tank, FotW = melee DPS, etc.), while others were... less decisive.
While it's nice to change the ED and get some capabilities for specific situations (like being an off-tank or able to hit DCs for high reaper), the new system isn't meant for that. It's basically a "choose what fits your playstyle and character the most" and stick with it. That explains why the cores were streamlined in their benefits for MP, RP, and DCs and you find many of the same enhancements with little variation again and again.

5.) Today's team
DDO is an old game, there were a lot of devs involved, and each of them worked into the game. Which means, that the current team also carries many of these choices, if they want or not. Now that they rehaul an entire system, of course they include their personal note to that and make it in a way, that help their vision, that help their way of work, and that is more in line in what they believe is the best for the game. Which may differ from your perspective, but it's their game.
Which means that no ED has any obligation to match their current incarnation mechanically. Which is great for many, imo.
Remember, when the devs said that they were surprised by the popularity of epic moments? In a stream with Strimtom and Lynnabel I came to the conclusion (which may be wrong), that the devs knew that *some* epic moments were popular, but not that players would press for the idea in general. I mean, Celestial Mandate? Rain of Arrows? Why didn't I see anyone complaining about how these have disappeared from the game? I think you know. Because the page-count is exploding, and I was too lazy to look at every single post. If you have posts asking for those, please give me a link.
The current team have their own needs and wants of the system, and the right to implement those, while we have a right to complain and to leave the game, if we want. Whether that is warranted is an entirely other matter.

6.) Exclusivity
Which brings us to the next thing: Making things exclusive. Like all epic strikes sharing a cooldown, the destiny mantles, or only allowing one tree to be on tier 5. These overlaps in the trees is intentional. Of course you know, but I can't stress that enough. These are to make you choose. To choose whether you want to purchase more than one, if you did, to use which one in which situation. Aside from the challenge to your player skills, it's also a safe space for development, because what doesn't work together also doesn't need to be balanced in terms of combining. ...after using the Epic Moment in LD, I really know why Action Boosts share a cooldown.
While we all like to have all the goodies and to have them now, I acknowledge that getting everything I want isn't what's the best for me, IRL and in a game. This exclusivity also ensures that each of these trees still have a bit of an identity, even with all the meshing which we all will do eventually.

7.) Quest-balance pass
The overhaul of the system also asks for an overhaul of the monster stats in level 20-29 content (at least). So it's a bit too early to say what is too weak, as most of the rebalancing of the monster will come from what the new ED-system will settle on. At least I imagine it.
I'll just assume, that the more the numbers bloat in epics, the stronger the monsters will get to answer for that, and I don't know if I like it that way, as it may stand in the way of everything we worked towards in heroics. For a crass example, if we all get +500 melee power from the EDs, how much do the +20 from my heroic enhancement tree matter?
Nonetheless, at this point we only see half of the matter, and maybe some quests will get a major balance overhaul (like the epic 20s, which are much harder than any of the 21s). Unless the other side gets adjusted as well, it's maybe a bit premature to say what's too low and what values it should have.



Everyone is free to have their opinion, but I hope that some of you may take another look and think about this banana of a system that will replace our apple. It's very different and should be judged/(dis)liked by what it is, not by what people try to twist it to be.

I'm sure, I'm missing some points, and I'll add them if I can think of more.

[kmoustakas]

Nobody asked for a new ED-system. Fixes, bug fixes, rebalancing? Sure. New spheres? DEFINATELLY said a number of classes with no distinctly useful trees.

New system altogether? Only the developers who want it for their resume when they look for a new job.

[droid327]

I agree it was designed to facilitate the level cap increase, which is something I and many, many other players vehemently do not want.

But that's not a reason to give the system a free pass, its something to actively dislike about it

[drathdragon]

8.) I will drop the game definitely.(sadly)

[Oxarhamar]

I agree it was designed to facilitate the level cap increase, which is something I and many, many other players vehemently do not want.

But that's not a reason to give the system a free pass, its something to actively dislike about it

This

I had hopes for the ED change until trying it out on Preview 1

At least they listened and got rid of Builder Spender (sort of)

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

9.) I'm curious as how it will be, as I have only 1 character in the Epics (and 2 at its entrance).

Without knowing much about the old system, it'll be easy for me to adapt to the new one without having to look back.

[mikarddo]

I did understand that already, however.

1) That is no excuse to make leveling from 20 to 30 much more boring than it is now, nor to make level 30 less interesting than it it now.

3) You seem to have gotten that one wrong imho. In the current system you not only get your main tree but 5 twists where you can cherry pick really strong abilities from up to 5 other trees. In the new system you can either barely get T4 + T1 in 2nd and 3rd threes or barely two T3s. The extra trees are nowhere near the flexibility or power of the current twists.

4) Being able to change main tree and/twists for free between quests/raids makes the game FUN. Not being able to do so without a prohibitive costs makes the game less fun. Lets remember - we are here to have fun, right?

6) I get the point and dont really mind things being exclusive. What I do mind is that the remaining non-exclusive abilities in your 2nd and 3rd trees are pretty boring - "+3 mrr" simply isnt epic in feeling. So, the non-exclusive abilities need to be stronger and/or more unique.

The points you bring up are all valid, but none of them are new to me so I "got it" already. I just disagree that they are good design decisions as I find them making the game less fun and epic building of character much less flexible. I think the new system will make more cookie-cutter builds rather than more build diversity.

[Dandonk]

<snip>

Completely agree with Mikarddo.

The new system will be less fun, less flexible, and the one good thing about it, losing the karma, could easily be done without this mess we're getting saddled with.

[Pandjed]

3) You seem to have gotten that one wrong imho. In the current system you not only get your main tree but 5 twists where you can cherry pick really strong abilities from up to 5 other trees. In the new system you can either barely get T4 + T1 in 2nd and 3rd threes or barely two T3s. The extra trees are nowhere near the flexibility or power of the current twists.

Marked the part which I include the twist.

Aside of the stronger choice component, the whole design behind it is to actually use more than one tree. So while many numbers may seem off (and I'm sure some are too low), the baseline is to spend 52 in up to 3 trees, instead of 24 in one tree plus some singular enhancements you can eventually add to it.

As the look is on the new system and the comparison to the old one seems to be inappropriate in most cases, I personally don't see the need to explain the twist system any more, which would hint towards a comparison which I don't want to make.

The points you bring up are all valid, but none of them are new to me so I "got it" already. I just disagree that they are good design decisions as I find them making the game less fun and epic building of character much less flexible. I think the new system will make more cookie-cutter builds rather than more build diversity.

This thread is meant for people, who may misunderstand the whole magnitude and the actual thoughts of the new system and it dismisses personal opinions for the most part. The only thing your post provides to it is to support this point, sadly:

Because I can imagine, that a lot of people already made their opinion and they only look for arguments, that either confirm their believes, or that oppose them, so that they can write another comment to let out their frustrations...
Let's see how many of those will post here.

To cut it short: I don't care about your opinion at all, I don't want to lead any discussion whether it's good or bad, and if you look for a place to flail your opinion around, I like to kindly remind you that this thread is not meant to be a place to do so. My intention is to give some people, who might look at the trees in a way they weren't meant to be a chance to reconsider their opinion and can be glad or mad for the right reasons, not because they forced their own ideas onto the system before judging it.
So if you think you got it right, you're not the target group and have little to do with the topic, unless you can enlighten me about some arguments I may have missed or put wrong or the like. If you have, please do so. If not, then no need to clutter here, there are dozens of other threads better suited to unleash your opinion, right?

[SerPounce]

Nobody asked for a new ED-system. Fixes, bug fixes, rebalancing? Sure. New spheres? DEFINATELLY said a number of classes with no distinctly useful trees.

New system altogether? Only the developers who want it for their resume when they look for a new job.

I did. The current system is a hot mess. I wish they gutted it even more and made destinies actual epic classes and did away with destiny feats.

[Hawkwier]

Marked the part which I include the twist.



As the look is on the new system and the comparison to the old one seems to be inappropriate in most cases, I personally don't see the need to explain the twist system any more, which would hint towards a comparison which I don't want to make.




This thread is meant for people, who may misunderstand the whole magnitude and the actual thoughts of the new system and it dismisses personal opinions for the most part. The only thing your post provides to it is to support this point, sadly:



To cut it short: I don't care about your opinion at all, I don't want to lead any discussion whether it's good or bad, and if you look for a place to flail your opinion around, I like to kindly remind you that this thread is not meant to be a place to do so. My intention is to give some people, who might be wrong a chance to reconsider their opinion and can be glad or mad for the right reasons, not because they forced their own ideas onto the system before judging it.
So if you think you got it right, you're not the target group and have little to do with the topic, unless you can enlighten me about some arguments I may have missed or put wrong or the like. If you have, please do so. If not, then no need to clutter here, there are dozens of other threads better suited to unleash your opinion, right?

Was gonna reply with my views but then saw this and I'm now just a bit confused. Do you want my opinion or not? You say you don't care about it, but also want to give me the chance to reconsider it. If you don't care about it why would I ever offer it, reconsidered or not? Sorry if I'm missing something here, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Pandjed]

Was gonna reply with my views but then saw this and I'm now just a bit confused. Do you want my opinion or not? You say you don't care about it, but also want to give me the chance to reconsider it. If you don't care about it why would I ever offer it, reconsidered or not? Sorry if I'm missing something here, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Whoops, bad wording there, I corrected it (most likely the time when I wrote it), and I rewrote that "might be wrong"-part in hope that I caught it better. I mean, "You can either agree with me or be wrong" has a nice ring, but definitely not what I meant. :P

To cut short: I don't want this a discussion thread whether you like the changes or not (there are dozens of threads to comment on that, including the ones from the devs).

This is more meant to help people understand the standards to make their judgements, helping to overcome some narrowmindness (like comparing new tree vs old tree without taking into account that you can put stuff into other trees; forgetting that this is meant to be carried over to the level cap; the importance of player choice beyond the destiny itself; etc.)

So basically, if nobody answers to it, it's fine. If it helps people to get to the right perspective and judge the ED-system and trees for what they are, instead of what they aren't (based on prejudices, not understanding of their design, or a "that's it and nothing will come"-attitude), then it's great, and it won't matter to me whether they like them or not, or it runs counter to my own opinion.

[silinteresting]

I did. The current system is a hot mess. I wish they gutted it even more and made destinies actual epic classes and did away with destiny feats.

I agree and well said.

[Hawkwier]

Whoops, bad wording there, I corrected it (most likely the time when I wrote it), and I rewrote that "might be wrong"-part in hope that I caught it better. I mean, "You can either agree with me or be wrong" has a nice ring, but definitely not what I meant. :P

To cut short: I don't want this a discussion thread whether you like the changes or not (there are dozens of threads to comment on that, including the ones from the devs).

This is more meant to help people understand the standards to make their judgements, helping to overcome some narrowmindness (like comparing new tree vs old tree without taking into account that you can put stuff into other trees; forgetting that this is meant to be carried over to the level cap; the importance of player choice beyond the destiny itself; etc.)

So basically, if nobody answers to it, it's fine. If it helps people to get to the right perspective and judge the ED-system and trees for what they are, instead of what they aren't (based on prejudices, not understanding of their design, or a "that's it and nothing will come"-attitude), then it's great, and it won't matter to me whether they like them or not, or it runs counter to my own opinion.

Thanks for responding and clarifying. You make some fair points imo. Though I do think an important, and very natural, acid test will be to compare pre and post U51 builds and impact, we need to look at it in the round and not a single tree in isolation.

That said, whilst there is access to other trees, even at cap with full 48 EPLs, that access is pretty limited in practice. For T5 you're probably looking at 35+ points and 2 other trees at 11 each takes you to 57 points, out of an absolute max of 63, if you want to max out the cores. Of course that will improve as more points levels are added, and it's not a terrible base imo. I get that they want to close the gap between player experience levels but do think there is a case for Epic Completionist being worth more than one destiny point each given the extensive effort and/or costs involved in running 12 lives for each. 3 would better reflect the effort involved imo.

For me, whilst there are several nice gains to be had such as improvement in self healing and hit points, I expect a big loss will be Meld. I expect that will hurt quite a lot of melees in high reaper where any compensatory healing will be severely diminished. There are other impacts, but that stands out. Being squishy in high reaper is a pretty big deal as DPS is zip when you're a soulstone.

The impact of the changes in the round are not as bad as I feared, but that's for me and doesn't necessarily hold off others, so I can understand why some folks would be unhappy. Whilst it does imo set the base to support the journey to 40, it is only natural that folks will ask whether that is a journey they want to take. I know I did, though I'm happy to say the answer, for me, is now looking like a qualified yes. I'm definitely looking to get back into playing based on what I've seen, though there are still some improvements needed imo.

[TFerguson]

I understand that it sucks.

[Toblakai]

I did. The current system is a hot mess. I wish they gutted it even more and made destinies actual epic classes and did away with destiny feats.

I agree, the old system was poorly designed and no real thought was put into the future (like the pre-nerf sharn/feywild/etc loot). This system will make leveling more interesting because you get to spend points and advance at every level. Can you imagine if heroics was like epic? Getting all your AP at level 1? I am sure that some builds will no longer work but new ones will replace them. This game is designed on re-building your character on a whim with the current TR process.

[Pandjed]

Thanks for responding and clarifying. You make some fair points imo.

Glad to hear that, getting something wrong with this thread is my greatest concern.

For me, whilst there are several nice gains to be had such as improvement in self healing and hit points, I expect a big loss will be Meld. I expect that will hurt quite a lot of melees in high reaper where any compensatory healing will be severely diminished. There are other impacts, but that stands out. Being squishy in high reaper is a pretty big deal as DPS is zip when you're a soulstone.

This will bring a big shift in the high skull tier, for the better or worse. In my experience, everyone likes to play a DPS build, many aren't that good with it (often by ignoring the setup of the party and quest; something I especially saw much when inquisitives were new), and now there won't be the Get-out-of-trouble-by-using-Meld-card anymore, while I know that better DPS-players may adapt, but may have worse cards for it. Though I like the idea of the current Meld, that's more for dodge-reliant characters that can punish those that tries to hit them.
I guess, if the devs decide to bring a more general design to all Epic Moments, that buffs survivability while also buffing the damage, they could take the Meld-role (base idea: Stay alive long enough to bring down your problem with your increased damage), despite being on a longer cooldown. Some ideas for defensive sides of buffs are:

• Reducing all Hate to 0, regardless of the enemy type
• The high dodge life-meld has
• ridiculous amounts of thp, like Undying Vanguard
• High damage absorption, like Renegade Mastermaker's 95% absorb
• ridiculous fast and strong Healing over time that even r10 can't destroy
• Ability to remain at 1hp

May not cover all the destinies that you would go t5 for as a melee character. Ranged and spellcasting characters may love meld, but probably can go without in most cases.

If not, ranged DPS will rule for a while in that specific tier. And players who have the experience to do melee DPS properly (as they planned properly for the 100 seconds outside Meld). Poor tanks though, as they really liked that dodge for whenever things went south.

[Pandjed]

I agree, the old system was poorly designed and no real thought was put into the future (like the pre-nerf sharn/feywild/etc loot). This system will make leveling more interesting because you get to spend points and advance at every level. Can you imagine if heroics was like epic? Getting all your AP at level 1? I am sure that some builds will no longer work but new ones will replace them. This game is designed on re-building your character on a whim with the current TR process.

I also think, that the old system already was half-butchered the moment it came to life. I can't imagine how they could come up with a destiny level system while increasing the old level cap at the same time. I'm sure that originally, the destiny's were supposed to be the only thing that would add on cap, and at some point, that decision was challenged and made into a strange kind of hybrid.

[Saekee]

nice summary and clarification

[GoldyGopher]

I also think, that the old system already was half-butchered the moment it came to life. I can't imagine how they could come up with a destiny level system while increasing the old level cap at the same time. I'm sure that originally, the destiny's were supposed to be the only thing that would add on cap, and at some point, that decision was challenged and made into a strange kind of hybrid.

It was a fairly well thought out system, that was supposed to grow and adapt as the game expanded. I'll clearly state for the record the problem was it was never adjusted or expanded in any significant way, short two additional EDs, and a small handful of balance adjustments. In short Epic Levels were generic increase in power more aligned to gear and feats. Epic Destinies were Epic Prestige Classes, in a similar vane to Prestige Enhancements, which was part of the enhancement system prior to the launch of Shadowfell Conspiracy. Later they bolted in Epic Reincarnation and Destiny Feats which the system wasn't designed to support.