You may not understand the upcoming ED-System

[Hawkwier]

Glad to hear that, getting something wrong with this thread is my greatest concern.


This will bring a big shift in the high skull tier, for the better or worse. In my experience, everyone likes to play a DPS build, many aren't that good with it (often by ignoring the setup of the party and quest; something I especially saw much when inquisitives were new), and now there won't be the Get-out-of-trouble-by-using-Meld-card anymore, while I know that better DPS-players may adapt, but may have worse cards for it. Though I like the idea of the current Meld, that's more for dodge-reliant characters that can punish those that tries to hit them.
I guess, if the devs decide to bring a more general design to all Epic Moments, that buffs survivability while also buffing the damage, they could take the Meld-role (base idea: Stay alive long enough to bring down your problem with your increased damage), despite being on a longer cooldown. Some ideas for defensive sides of buffs are:

• Reducing all Hate to 0, regardless of the enemy type
• The high dodge life-meld has
• ridiculous amounts of thp, like Undying Vanguard
• High damage absorption, like Renegade Mastermaker's 95% absorb
• ridiculous fast and strong Healing over time that even r10 can't destroy
• Ability to remain at 1hp

May not cover all the destinies that you would go t5 for as a melee character. Ranged and spellcasting characters may love meld, but probably can go without in most cases.

If not, ranged DPS will rule for a while in that specific tier. And players who have the experience to do melee DPS properly (as they planned properly for the 100 seconds outside Meld). Poor tanks though, as they really liked that dodge for whenever things went south.

I'm probably one of the poorer DPS players you're referring to (no offence taken!), though applying Meld in high reaper for me at least does take some skill in terms of when you choose to apply it. Spamming it is a non starter imo, for example, as you never know when you're going to need it to face down a Doom (and even with it, survival is far from a certainty).

I'd also emphasise the point you made that there are quite a lot of us poorer melees out there, and I tend to agree (I can only think of a handful on my server that might qualify), so if the argument here is that everyone bar a handful will need to switch from melee DPS in high reaper, well, I'm sorry, but that is flat out unacceptable. History suggests we may see the Devs making that mistake in the short-term with a subsequent correction. But the best way forward for everyone concerned would be not to make the mistake in the first place.

Folks who have put in the time and costs over many years to play the game they like/love simply can't, indeed mustn't, be nerfed out of playing the way they enjoy. Do that, and all that will be left will be the elite handful you've mentioned, polishing their chosen chibs with due satisfaction - but not for long...

If the message to me, for example, is: you can't play a barb anymore pal, when it's all I've played for 10+ years, then my response is unequivocally: OK, well then, cheerio! I'm maybe stubborn that way though. YMMV.

[MasterDragonan]

I did understand that already, however.

1) That is no excuse to make leveling from 20 to 30 much more boring than it is now, nor to make level 30 less interesting than it it now.

3) You seem to have gotten that one wrong imho. In the current system you not only get your main tree but 5 twists where you can cherry pick really strong abilities from up to 5 other trees. In the new system you can either barely get T4 + T1 in 2nd and 3rd threes or barely two T3s. The extra trees are nowhere near the flexibility or power of the current twists.

4) Being able to change main tree and/twists for free between quests/raids makes the game FUN. Not being able to do so without a prohibitive costs makes the game less fun. Lets remember - we are here to have fun, right?

6) I get the point and dont really mind things being exclusive. What I do mind is that the remaining non-exclusive abilities in your 2nd and 3rd trees are pretty boring - "+3 mrr" simply isnt epic in feeling. So, the non-exclusive abilities need to be stronger and/or more unique.

The points you bring up are all valid, but none of them are new to me so I "got it" already. I just disagree that they are good design decisions as I find them making the game less fun and epic building of character much less flexible. I think the new system will make more cookie-cutter builds rather than more build diversity.

This!
They are making game more boring and wash off. Soon this game is going to be no different then other mmo game out there. There want be any reason to play it anymore.
They are killing uniqueness of this game.
Also the more you penalize me as a player with ridiculous rules, xp nerfs, quest choices and so on the sooner I will leave and you are doing good job.
Some of new quest even block dimension door making it useless.
There are like 199 wiz/sorc spell and around 70% of them useless, same thing with basic feats and so on. So instead of making them useful and fun they keep destroying character versatile, Good Job.
Also People like Strimtom are once who causes a lot of damage to this game.

[Brandwynn]

This!
They are making game more boring and wash off. Soon this game is going to be no different then other mmo game out there. There want be any reason to play it anymore.
They are killing uniqueness of this game.
Also the more you penalize me as a player with ridiculous rules, xp nerfs, quest choices and so on the sooner I will leave and you are doing good job.
Some of new quest even block dimension door making it useless.
There are like 199 wiz/sorc spell and around 70% of them useless, same thing with basic feats and so on. So instead of making them useful and fun they keep destroying character versatile, Good Job.
Also People like Strimtom are once who causes a lot of damage to this game.

How are people like Strimtom causing damage?

[Xgya]

I did. The current system is a hot mess. I wish they gutted it even more and made destinies actual epic classes and did away with destiny feats.

Well said.

Actual Epic classes, with class features related to the class, and perhaps their own class trees to boot would feel a LOT better than any proposed global system.

I'd agree about forcing people to stick to one of them until cap if that helped design them.

Wouldn't have to be that many classes.
And a few options could have trees in common.

That does sound like a LOT of work, but it'd feel pretty satisfying.

[LavidDynch]

I did understand that already, however.

1) That is no excuse to make leveling from 20 to 30 much more boring than it is now, nor to make level 30 less interesting than it it now.

3) You seem to have gotten that one wrong imho. In the current system you not only get your main tree but 5 twists where you can cherry pick really strong abilities from up to 5 other trees. In the new system you can either barely get T4 + T1 in 2nd and 3rd threes or barely two T3s. The extra trees are nowhere near the flexibility or power of the current twists.

4) Being able to change main tree and/twists for free between quests/raids makes the game FUN. Not being able to do so without a prohibitive costs makes the game less fun. Lets remember - we are here to have fun, right?

6) I get the point and dont really mind things being exclusive. What I do mind is that the remaining non-exclusive abilities in your 2nd and 3rd trees are pretty boring - "+3 mrr" simply isnt epic in feeling. So, the non-exclusive abilities need to be stronger and/or more unique.

The points you bring up are all valid, but none of them are new to me so I "got it" already. I just disagree that they are good design decisions as I find them making the game less fun and epic building of character much less flexible. I think the new system will make more cookie-cutter builds rather than more build diversity.

All good points. This is a game, so they should prio the fun question.

This ED change is for the HC server, isn´t that obvious?

[Cantor]

I did understand that already, however.

1) That is no excuse to make leveling from 20 to 30 much more boring than it is now, nor to make level 30 less interesting than it it now.

3) You seem to have gotten that one wrong imho. In the current system you not only get your main tree but 5 twists where you can cherry pick really strong abilities from up to 5 other trees. In the new system you can either barely get T4 + T1 in 2nd and 3rd threes or barely two T3s. The extra trees are nowhere near the flexibility or power of the current twists.

4) Being able to change main tree and/twists for free between quests/raids makes the game FUN. Not being able to do so without a prohibitive costs makes the game less fun. Lets remember - we are here to have fun, right?

6) I get the point and dont really mind things being exclusive. What I do mind is that the remaining non-exclusive abilities in your 2nd and 3rd trees are pretty boring - "+3 mrr" simply isnt epic in feeling. So, the non-exclusive abilities need to be stronger and/or more unique.

The points you bring up are all valid, but none of them are new to me so I "got it" already. I just disagree that they are good design decisions as I find them making the game less fun and epic building of character much less flexible. I think the new system will make more cookie-cutter builds rather than more build diversity.

1) completely disagree. get all your power at 20 and float to 30 with no change doesn't sound less boring than getting new abilities as you level up.
3) pretty sure this is by design, they want to limit those top abilities some... doesn't mean I like it, just it makes sense.
4) they should definitely make it easy to swap.
6) I agree that there is too much filler.

[LavidDynch]

1) completely disagree. get all your power at 20 and float to 30 with no change doesn't sound less boring than getting new abilities as you level up.

And this new system changes that? no. it does nothing for the 20-30 process. it could. but it doesn´t.

[Kza]

The nr 4 alone make the game slower and not as fun.
I want to have fun! Change playstyle when needed is fun!

[Oxarhamar]

All good points. This is a game, so they should prio the fun question.

This ED change is for the HC server, isn´t that obvious?

Ding ding ding

Just like the Airship buffs got eaten by HC

[Aelonwy]

This ED change is for the HC server, isn´t that obvious?

Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly but its not obvious to me. How are these changes for HC?

[Pandjed]

There are some wild theories going on here and I would prefer for you to just stop here. Same for criticism about the ED changes, here we have a big list of links where all of these actually matter, from general to specific, so knock yourself out there. There you can praise, you can whine, you can throw tantrums, everything you like.
There are also other threads in this forum, which bases around opinions. This thread, however, is not meant to be a place for that and I'd prefer all of you to surpress your urges and bring your stuff to the places that actually fits the bill.

Unless you have something to say about what I gathered about the base-premises of the new ED-system directly, of course. Stay on topic, please.


Though in this case, I will just comment to this one, so that we don't have any hanging threads here.

Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly but its not obvious to me. How are these changes for HC?

There are a group of players that firmly believes, that many changes have HC in mind, as HC is surrounded by many big changes of the game's system. As HC brings a different look of how the game functions (as we have veterans and rather new players alike starting with the same stats), there are some things the devs have discovered or re-prioritized and smoothen out.
Example of a discovery is how lethal traps are in low heroics, like how the ice jet in Korthos has killed many players and that it may be a bad thing for an introduction quest.
Example of re-prioritizing are the old ship buffs, which were meant to cease entirely with the new ones, but were brought back after enough player whining, though with the warning that it's only temporary. With the first HC season and their impact of the season (giving 30 energy resistance at level 1), the devs decided to finally follow through the rather old announcement.

In the same vein, there are people believing that now every change is tied to hadcore season. I call it belief, because a lack of proof. They may be right, they may be wrong, but about the ED change what was stated by the devs is that they wanted to rehaul the ED-system before the level cap increase. Everything else is just a theory.

That should cover it enough. If you have more questions or anyone sees the need to answer to it, I'd wish that they would open a new thread instead to not turn this into a theory thread.

[Oxarhamar]

Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly but its not obvious to me. How are these changes for HC?

Out of respecting the OP request for not discussing here I sent a PM no need for a new thread

[Pandjed]

Out of respecting the OP request for not discussing here I sent a PM no need for a new thread

Thank you, I appreciate this.

[FengXian]

After reading the notes, testing some stuff, and returning to the forums, I somehow got the feeling, that many arguments in these forums may stem from a severe lack of understanding of the new system. That's natural, I guess, as whenever something new replaces the old, it's in the nature of people to compare them, even though they're different to the core and only share superficial similarities. Like when they change the dessert in the canteen from apples to bananas. Will you compare apples to bananas? Probably, even though they're two very different kinds of fruit, which happens to fill in the same role: Being a dessert in the canteen.

Hoping that it will help some of you, I wrote some points about the new system, which may give you a new look on this, a better understanding, if you're open-minded. Because I can imagine, that a lot of people already made their opinion and they only look for arguments, that either confirm their believes, or that oppose them, so that they can write another comment to let out their frustrations...
Let's see how many of those will post here.

Now I'll begin the actual meat of this post:

1.) The new system is for the level cap increase
While I don't want that increase, that's the reason why we get the new system. Instead of trying to add even more to the game, the devs decided to take a look at the different power systems and then came to the decision to redo the EDs. That means, that whatever you calculate your character will be able to achieve at level 30 is more of a intermediate result. For example, if they increase the level cap next year to level 32, then we have already 8 more points to spend.
As the level cap increase was planned this year and was pushed back in the schedule, of course the devs keep it in mind for several of their decisions regarding the EDs.

2.) Expandability
Aside from the level cap increase, this system is compatible with several ways of expanding and extending it. After the redo of the old EDs come thre more to correlate to artificer, alchemists, and warlocks, which means more fate points, which leads to more destiny points. Same goes for more epic past lives. There may be an option for EDs that don't directly correlate to any class at all, like an Heir of Syberis, which is bades around Dragonmarks, for example.
While these additions aren't planned yet afaik, the new system had been made to accomodate for them.

3.) Another frame
It's important to not compare the new destinies 1:1 to the old ones. Because they both base on very different systems. In the old one, one tree had to do most of the work, while now the work is carried by 1-3 trees, depending on the player's choices. A player can decide to forgo one tree entirely, losing some melee and ranged power to make two trees work. Or can decide to spread and take a lot of low tiers, which enhances the heroic build to be reliable in epics, leaving most epic actives behind.
I mean, I work out my melee builds with at most +60 melee power from the ED, so I won't have problems to forgo another 30 if I believe that the build gets more solid otherwise. Nothing lost for me there, just nothing gained.
Aside of the stronger choice component, the whole design behind it is to actually use more than one tree. So while many numbers may seem off (and I'm sure some are too low), the baseline is to spend 52 in up to 3 trees, instead of 24 in one tree plus some singular enhancements you can eventually add to it.

4.) Not meant to be changed
Do you change their EDs depending on the quest? If yes, do you also respec all of the heroic trees, to be true to it? DDO has a lot of decisions in terms of builds, and some are easier to redo than others (feat exchanges takes a mindflayer reprogramming your brain, after all). The old system had EDs that are straight forward in their roles (US = tank, FotW = melee DPS, etc.), while others were... less decisive.
While it's nice to change the ED and get some capabilities for specific situations (like being an off-tank or able to hit DCs for high reaper), the new system isn't meant for that. It's basically a "choose what fits your playstyle and character the most" and stick with it. That explains why the cores were streamlined in their benefits for MP, RP, and DCs and you find many of the same enhancements with little variation again and again.

5.) Today's team
DDO is an old game, there were a lot of devs involved, and each of them worked into the game. Which means, that the current team also carries many of these choices, if they want or not. Now that they rehaul an entire system, of course they include their personal note to that and make it in a way, that help their vision, that help their way of work, and that is more in line in what they believe is the best for the game. Which may differ from your perspective, but it's their game.
Which means that no ED has any obligation to match their current incarnation mechanically. Which is great for many, imo.
Remember, when the devs said that they were surprised by the popularity of epic moments? In a stream with Strimtom and Lynnabel I came to the conclusion (which may be wrong), that the devs knew that *some* epic moments were popular, but not that players would press for the idea in general. I mean, Celestial Mandate? Rain of Arrows? Why didn't I see anyone complaining about how these have disappeared from the game? I think you know. Because the page-count is exploding, and I was too lazy to look at every single post. If you have posts asking for those, please give me a link.
The current team have their own needs and wants of the system, and the right to implement those, while we have a right to complain and to leave the game, if we want. Whether that is warranted is an entirely other matter.

6.) Exclusivity
Which brings us to the next thing: Making things exclusive. Like all epic strikes sharing a cooldown, the destiny mantles, or only allowing one tree to be on tier 5. These overlaps in the trees is intentional. Of course you know, but I can't stress that enough. These are to make you choose. To choose whether you want to purchase more than one, if you did, to use which one in which situation. Aside from the challenge to your player skills, it's also a safe space for development, because what doesn't work together also doesn't need to be balanced in terms of combining. ...after using the Epic Moment in LD, I really know why Action Boosts share a cooldown.
While we all like to have all the goodies and to have them now, I acknowledge that getting everything I want isn't what's the best for me, IRL and in a game. This exclusivity also ensures that each of these trees still have a bit of an identity, even with all the meshing which we all will do eventually.

7.) Quest-balance pass
The overhaul of the system also asks for an overhaul of the monster stats in level 20-29 content (at least). So it's a bit too early to say what is too weak, as most of the rebalancing of the monster will come from what the new ED-system will settle on. At least I imagine it.
I'll just assume, that the more the numbers bloat in epics, the stronger the monsters will get to answer for that, and I don't know if I like it that way, as it may stand in the way of everything we worked towards in heroics. For a crass example, if we all get +500 melee power from the EDs, how much do the +20 from my heroic enhancement tree matter?
Nonetheless, at this point we only see half of the matter, and maybe some quests will get a major balance overhaul (like the epic 20s, which are much harder than any of the 21s). Unless the other side gets adjusted as well, it's maybe a bit premature to say what's too low and what values it should have.



Everyone is free to have their opinion, but I hope that some of you may take another look and think about this banana of a system that will replace our apple. It's very different and should be judged/(dis)liked by what it is, not by what people try to twist it to be.

I'm sure, I'm missing some points, and I'll add them if I can think of more.

Good points but I do have a retort.

Instead of fixing what ain't broken, FIX WHAT IS FIRST.

[DRoark]

I can say that the new system is basically an ER-grindfest, and adding more Toggles to the game really wasn't a step forward.
Even the OLD Toggles weren't needed. You don't forget any past life skill, but "somehow" forget Epic ones, with less impact?

They could have really improved the game in several directions, Backwards and Down wasn't really the best direction to go.

[Enderoc]

Completely agree with Mikarddo.

The new system will be less fun, less flexible, and the one good thing about it, losing the karma, could easily be done without this mess we're getting saddled with.

Less flexible lol If you can express one point that makes the new system less flexible, I would really like to hear it.
Less fun? if your fun is dependent on a couple of feats you may as well make a build that does those things...

[Oxarhamar]

Less flexible lol If you can express one point that makes the new system less flexible, I would really like to hear it.
Less fun? if your fun is dependent on a couple of feats you may as well make a build that does those things...

You can no longer easily swap EDs or Twists for difference quests

Example

LD for trash clear Firepeak, Divine Crusader for Mark of Death, twist in Energy sheath for Fall of Truth etc

[Hawkwier]

Less flexible lol If you can express one point that makes the new system less flexible, I would really like to hear it.
Less fun? if your fun is dependent on a couple of feats you may as well make a build that does those things...

There are many, but as you asked for only the one, not being able to switch EDs on the fly for tanking raids if there isn't a tank is one in the party is a clear impact on flexibility of the new system vs what we enjoy today. There is no question that the new system is less flexible in many respects than what we enjoy today.

You're welcome.

[Looting_Bin]

In another thread I had challenged what you had been said there, and from this post it really looks to be an in-depth view of the changes.

After reading the notes, testing some stuff, and returning to the forums, I somehow got the feeling, that many arguments in these forums may stem from a severe lack of understanding of the new system. That's natural, I guess, as whenever something new replaces the old, it's in the nature of people to compare them, even though they're different to the core and only share superficial similarities. Like when they change the dessert in the canteen from apples to bananas. Will you compare apples to bananas? Probably, even though they're two very different kinds of fruit, which happens to fill in the same role: Being a dessert in the canteen.

Hoping that it will help some of you, I wrote some points about the new system, which may give you a new look on this, a better understanding, if you're open-minded. Because I can imagine, that a lot of people already made their opinion and they only look for arguments, that either confirm their believes, or that oppose them, so that they can write another comment to let out their frustrations...
Let's see how many of those will post here.

So, I am going through your OP with slight comments on them based on the information you have gathered paired with mine. I will try to keep my personal opinions to a minimum, but I feel that many of these points you brought up are one side of a two sided coin. I am not saying I disagree with what your pointing out only that there are other ways to see these same attributes and understand the whole better.

1.) The new system is for the level cap increase
While I don't want that increase, that's the reason why we get the new system. Instead of trying to add even more to the game, the devs decided to take a look at the different power systems and then came to the decision to redo the EDs. That means, that whatever you calculate your character will be able to achieve at level 30 is more of a intermediate result. For example, if they increase the level cap next year to level 32, then we have already 8 more points to spend.
As the level cap increase was planned this year and was pushed back in the schedule, of course the devs keep it in mind for several of their decisions regarding the EDs.

This is the first bullet point you made yet is missing a key point with-in it. Hardly anyone wanted a new system and even less wanted a level increase. One of the major reasons soo many are complaining is that the player base in general, don't want this. At this point I do feel a need to voice my opinion. I am one of the few that welcomes a level increase. I enjoy/ed 3.5 ruleset immensely. The Epic Level Handbook was one of my personal favorites, as it basically said there is no ceiling for your characters. The only issue I have is the over restricting ddo has brought to DDO. (which tbh has a place because no rules would be even harder to balance). One of the biggest issues that people have is that with the current system the only way to make things feel like growth is to level lock many key features. Hypothetically with a level of 40 being max, we would see the players experiencing equivalent power as they do with lvl 30 under current system. The fact that when the original systems where made the max level was much lower and the current ED was not an end all be all then. Honestly the entire system should have been addressed much earlier than it is now.

2.) Expandability
Aside from the level cap increase, this system is compatible with several ways of expanding and extending it. After the redo of the old EDs come thre more to correlate to artificer, alchemists, and warlocks, which means more fate points, which leads to more destiny points. Same goes for more epic past lives. There may be an option for EDs that don't directly correlate to any class at all, like an Heir of Syberis, which is bades around Dragonmarks, for example.
While these additions aren't planned yet afaik, the new system had been made to accomodate for them.

I agree here and see no point missed or overlooked. The heroic AP system has many aspects level restricted and mutable with set limits to try and balance gameplay. Its not perfect but does its job for classes as there are builds for many types of players.

3.) Another frame
It's important to not compare the new destinies 1:1 to the old ones. Because they both base on very different systems. In the old one, one tree had to do most of the work, while now the work is carried by 1-3 trees, depending on the player's choices. A player can decide to forgo one tree entirely, losing some melee and ranged power to make two trees work. Or can decide to spread and take a lot of low tiers, which enhances the heroic build to be reliable in epics, leaving most epic actives behind.
I mean, I work out my melee builds with at most +60 melee power from the ED, so I won't have problems to forgo another 30 if I believe that the build gets more solid otherwise. Nothing lost for me there, just nothing gained.
Aside of the stronger choice component, the whole design behind it is to actually use more than one tree. So while many numbers may seem off (and I'm sure some are too low), the baseline is to spend 52 in up to 3 trees, instead of 24 in one tree plus some singular enhancements you can eventually add to it.

Actually, its not another frame as much as an Epic AP system replacing the antiquated ED system currently. My only question is instead of trashing all that code, I hope they incorporate it somewhere else. (Like where druid pets use the old action point system before the players AP system was updated) I don't know where it could be inserted, but I would hate the coding and resources to go to waste.

4.) Not meant to be changed
Do you change their EDs depending on the quest? If yes, do you also respec all of the heroic trees, to be true to it? DDO has a lot of decisions in terms of builds, and some are easier to redo than others (feat exchanges takes a mindflayer reprogramming your brain, after all). The old system had EDs that are straight forward in their roles (US = tank, FotW = melee DPS, etc.), while others were... less decisive.
While it's nice to change the ED and get some capabilities for specific situations (like being an off-tank or able to hit DCs for high reaper), the new system isn't meant for that. It's basically a "choose what fits your playstyle and character the most" and stick with it. That explains why the cores were streamlined in their benefits for MP, RP, and DCs and you find many of the same enhancements with little variation again and again.

That in itself is one of the major flaws with changing to AP system for epics. No, not everyone needs to change ED's for specific quest. That being said some things do need to change with current system. Run some end game raids and many have ONE element type that is predominant. If you use elemental sheathe then you know they are not all the same element. Many may require farming for an item swap or getting a twist swap to compensate. And yes some players do change their heroic trees to combat specific challenges. Under current system at least the ED's and twist are free to change. Under the AP system it would be an additional cost for those requiring changes (the term nickel and dime comes to mind) Right now with VIP you could change things at any public space between quest. Will I still enjoy changing my selection of trees on the fly as well? If not, then that is a restriction being placed that wasn't previously there for me. If every quest gave a clear way for every quest to be done with every playstyle we wouldn't enjoy them as much. By restricting what we can do we are also restricting which playstyles can be played enjoyably. You have seen quest that are extremely easy for one type and extremely difficult for another. The issue with that is there is allot of content that requires different styles to work as intended. While I dont have an issue with that requirement as much as the fact it requires an active number of players to be feasible. How many times did you want to run something with not enough players being on for it? And with more levels the gap will only widen with out an influx of new players that stick.

5.) Today's team
DDO is an old game, there were a lot of devs involved, and each of them worked into the game. Which means, that the current team also carries many of these choices, if they want or not. Now that they rehaul an entire system, of course they include their personal note to that and make it in a way, that help their vision, that help their way of work, and that is more in line in what they believe is the best for the game. Which may differ from your perspective, but it's their game.
Which means that no ED has any obligation to match their current incarnation mechanically. Which is great for many, imo.
Remember, when the devs said that they were surprised by the popularity of epic moments? In a stream with Strimtom and Lynnabel I came to the conclusion (which may be wrong), that the devs knew that *some* epic moments were popular, but not that players would press for the idea in general. I mean, Celestial Mandate? Rain of Arrows? Why didn't I see anyone complaining about how these have disappeared from the game? I think you know. Because the page-count is exploding, and I was too lazy to look at every single post. If you have posts asking for those, please give me a link.
The current team have their own needs and wants of the system, and the right to implement those, while we have a right to complain and to leave the game, if we want. Whether that is warranted is an entirely other matter.

This as I said before isn't a new system but a reskin of the AP system(nothing wrong with that). I do argue your statement of this is "their game" though. If that was true to them they would not have a forums or a way for players to communicate with them. This game, is the investors game. The money talks and everything else walks. With no players buying product then the company makes no profit and the shareholders/owners cut losses. So essentially anyone that invest in the game has a say. Its my personal point of view that if you fund this game or promote it to be funded then you have a say. If you are a FTP player, you have no rights to make, say, and/or suggest anything seriously. I would hate to think that the thousands I spent/spend mean less to SSG than that of someone that enjoys something I paid for. If you enjoy the game give credit to those that keep the lights on(they also accept paypal).

6.) Exclusivity
Which brings us to the next thing: Making things exclusive. Like all epic strikes sharing a cooldown, the destiny mantles, or only allowing one tree to be on tier 5. These overlaps in the trees is intentional. Of course you know, but I can't stress that enough. These are to make you choose. To choose whether you want to purchase more than one, if you did, to use which one in which situation. Aside from the challenge to your player skills, it's also a safe space for development, because what doesn't work together also doesn't need to be balanced in terms of combining. ...after using the Epic Moment in LD, I really know why Action Boosts share a cooldown.
While we all like to have all the goodies and to have them now, I acknowledge that getting everything I want isn't what's the best for me, IRL and in a game. This exclusivity also ensures that each of these trees still have a bit of an identity, even with all the meshing which we all will do eventually.

Your right, and no one can deny what you've stated. The only backlash is the options have been limited which in turn limited players choices and playstyles. I don't have an issue with the exclusive aspect as with current system you have to make those same types of choices as well. I still enjoy LD under current system as it decreases cooldown between action boost(so 75% of the time I have an action boost running). The twist was a FFA way to adapt to many challenges(which will be sorely missed). When ever restrictions are made there are certain things lost at that time(freedom, adaptability, and ease of use to name a few)

7.) Quest-balance pass
The overhaul of the system also asks for an overhaul of the monster stats in level 20-29 content (at least). So it's a bit too early to say what is too weak, as most of the rebalancing of the monster will come from what the new ED-system will settle on. At least I imagine it.
I'll just assume, that the more the numbers bloat in epics, the stronger the monsters will get to answer for that, and I don't know if I like it that way, as it may stand in the way of everything we worked towards in heroics. For a crass example, if we all get +500 melee power from the EDs, how much do the +20 from my heroic enhancement tree matter?
Nonetheless, at this point we only see half of the matter, and maybe some quests will get a major balance overhaul (like the epic 20s, which are much harder than any of the 21s). Unless the other side gets adjusted as well, it's maybe a bit premature to say what's too low and what values it should have.

Under the new epic AP system it is doing something similar to the stat squish that recently happened. Everyone will lose some power in one way or another. Multiclass will suffer the most independent of past lives. And the more past lives you currently have the greater the loss. I see people running R10 on a daily basis( if you want to know why they are decreasing the power players have, it is because to many have hit the top end of play already. I am sure That upsets many but you will lose interest with-out a new focus if you reach the end game. I purposefully play lives at an enjoyable rate for me. I rather spend 2 months playing and enjoying a life than steamrolling everything and getting through 10 lives in that time. The quest balance will occur reactively. That means too many will complain or simply quit playing, because the difficulty in R1 just doubled its already double difficult elite challenge. When ever I see they are attempting to rebalance a quest I worry as it also means the loss of some player base.

Everyone is free to have their opinion, but I hope that some of you may take another look and think about this banana of a system that will replace our apple. It's very different and should be judged/(dis)liked by what it is, not by what people try to twist it to be.

I'm sure, I'm missing some points, and I'll add them if I can think of more.

The thing is, the proposed new system is Bananas (Heroic AP system) and Bananas (Epic AP system), as opposed to current Bananas (Heroic AP system) and Apples system (current ED's). You say that we shouldn't judge the new epic system but we already use that system in heroics so are familiar with it. Its hard to not compare the new system with the old when we all are aware of how the new system will work when compared to the old system that is different. Its not that we don't like the bananas but we will miss the variety of apples when all we have are bananas. That is not saying there are no oranges (SXP), but we have Bananas, Apples, and Oranges now. After the update we will have Bananas, more Bananas, and Oranges. I will miss having apples because I have tasted them and enjoyed them. The augment system has all but taken over all the crafting in game already. Are we doomed to the repeated systems being used for everything? Is variety really that bad? Yes it is, I could argue since every time I tell someone about crafting I have to explain it from the ground up or direct them somewhere to research so they can make one item. Be it crafting in house C or slotting your LGS, there is now one uniform method that I don't have to repeat since it is in all aspects of crafting.

So, Could the update be Good or Bad? Well, I believe it will be good in the long haul. But short term it is taking back many liberties we enjoy to make it a more uniform system. With the epic AP system which follows the same heroic AP rules there will be a level that shines above the others. I am sure you have noticed level 12 to be far easier than lvl 10. That also means using the new system they will have to stop at lvl 40(since it follows the older 1-20 architecture from heroics). That may imply they will need a new system for after 40 (if the game makes it that far). They could rehash the AP system again to legendary AP trees. Or, they could re-insert the current Epic Destinies at that time since they already have those resources.

My take away is that even though I don't like this flawed system it does promote growth with higher goals to achieve. I wont like it at first and until I am able to get my 80+ Epic AP it will be a toned down version of the heroic trees. The answer that SSG gave us to power creep was taking back the power we either bought or earned already. That's better for balance with new players but it also puts past lives as a wasted effort for many.

[Dandonk]

Less flexible lol If you can express one point that makes the new system less flexible, I would really like to hear it.
Less fun? if your fun is dependent on a couple of feats you may as well make a build that does those things...

As others have said, not being able to change ED to change between tanking or DPS EDs, and not being able to change twists (for example for sheath) are already not one, but two. You're welcome.

My fun is dependent on flavorful and interesting abilities. Now, EiN seems to be returning, but others are still either being removed completely, changed to other locations (making them less accessible to some builds), or changed beyond recognition.