Suggestion for U51

[AustrianDeathMachine]

Iirc the devs agreed to remove mantles/builders/spenders because I don't think a single person had any even remotely positive feedback for it. Hopefully that's not wishful remembering lol.

redacted

[AustrianDeathMachine]

[QUOTE=donblas;6463027]

You can only twist from 5 different trees if you have enough fate points, and you seemed skeptical i could even find three tree i'd want to use, never mind 6!

Is levelling 20-30 a slog? I suppose the lack of progression in the current system is rather boring.

I was asking you to pick 3 trees as an example. I never stated that you could not find 3 trees to use.

Unless you are running slayers, a lot of the quests in the 20-30 range are not very good.

I can run 20-30 twice usually over a 3 day weekend but very rarely do because most of the quests are tedious. Character progression really has nothing to do with it.

[Lynnabel]

No, they said they will look at it. They never agreed to remove it.
They spent 2 years developing a system that they have already sold. I highly doubt they are just going to scrap it. Kind of hard to justify 2 years of development with no clear payout just to throw out a large chunk of it. It may not launce with 51 but it will show eventually.

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

[AustrianDeathMachine]

And also too. you are only going to be able to get the good stuff from three trees if you have enough fate/ destiny points.

If you don't have enough fate points now. You aren't going to have enough destiny points either.

[AustrianDeathMachine]

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

Thank you for the link. Maybe mentioning this on the lammania/general forums might clear up confusion for those of us who don't follow the Development team through various media sites.

[dogsoldier]

Character progression and choices while leveling, oh no!

How does nuking the cores from orbit, eliminating twists, and locking 80% of the interesting destiny abilities behind level 30 provide meaningful progression and choice? Sure, you can have more than one destiny, but have to spend a bunch of filler points to get the equivalent of two twists, versus 4 twists 20-29 and 5 twists at 30. This is just like the pre-u50 stat jump at level 29, except it is now level 30.

[Tsutti]

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

The idea of some ability that you need to be in combat for a bit to use seems cool, hopefully it can be implemented in a more usable way sometime. Maybe something like that with whatever legendary levels bring, if/when those levels are implemented (new feats? new trees? maybe legendary levels will have subclasses unlike how epic levels are always the same type, and maybe a subclass would focus on getting stronger the longer combat lasts? though that would probably blow up to be way too powerful in raids without some kind of catch or having it simply gain bursts as combat drags on).

[slarden]

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

I have no issues with this in theory, but my expectations are quite simple:

1) I end up at roughly the same level of strength as I did before U50 @ level 30
2) The reduction in quest difficulty for level 21-29 quests closely aligns with the reduction in reduction in power due to ED gating so that 19-29 feels like a smooth progression.

Without knowing the trees I don't know if this is the case, but I am skeptical based on some of the U50 changes such as add-on nerfs (random removal of sneak damage from a few sets) and higher spike damage relative to our hp.

For example my warlock uses arcane tempest (magister) and twists in energy burst(draconic) for aoe with mass frog level 28 spell for constructs and undead. Will I have anything to make up for this with magister going away , mass frog moved to a tier 5 and will previously twistable things such as energy burst be in tier 5 only? With the combination of higher spike damage from U50 and the nerf of meld into darkness in U51 will I have to deal with more deaths making soloing unfun? The spike damage is already impacting many people as evidenced by the forum comments.

I am not unreasonable - the reasons given for the stat squish and ED changes make sense to me. I give U50 a C+ for the reasons I listed earlier. I hope U51 is better.

Anti-soloing mechanics are a show-stopper for me. I understand not making quests easier to accommodate soloing, but there shouldn't be mechanics that primarily punish soloing. I don't exclusively solo, but having a reasonable solo experience is very important to me. Having the self-healing penalty in reaper being the most penalized thing is strike 1 because of how much it limits my builds which makes the game less fun. U50 spike damage is strike 2. I am hoping U51 isn't strike 3 because I generally like the game - but the game loses alot of enjoyment if soloing is no longer enjoyable.

[Chai]

I have no issues with this in theory, but my expectations are quite simple:

1) I end up at roughly the same level of strength as I did before U50 @ level 30
2) The reduction in quest difficulty for level 21-29 quests closely aligns with the reduction in reduction in power due to ED gating so that 19-29 feels like a smooth progression.

Without knowing the trees I don't know if this is the case, but I am skeptical based on some of the U50 changes such as add-on nerfs (random removal of sneak damage from a few sets) and higher spike damage relative to our hp.

For example my warlock uses arcane tempest (magister) and twists in energy burst(draconic) for aoe with mass frog level 28 spell for constructs and undead. Will I have anything to make up for this with magister going away , mass frog moved to a tier 5 and will previously twistable things such as energy burst be in tier 5 only? With the combination of higher spike damage from U50 and the nerf of meld into darkness in U51 will I have to deal with more deaths making soloing unfun? The spike damage is already impacting many people as evidenced by the forum comments.

I am not unreasonable - the reasons given for the stat squish and ED changes make sense to me. I give U50 a C+ for the reasons I listed earlier. I hope U51 is better.

Anti-soloing mechanics are a show-stopper for me. I understand not making quests easier to accommodate soloing, but there shouldn't be mechanics that primarily punish soloing. I don't exclusively solo, but having a reasonable solo experience is very important to me. Having the self-healing penalty in reaper being the most penalized thing is strike 1 because of how much it limits my builds which makes the game less fun. U50 spike damage is strike 2. I am hoping U51 isn't strike 3 because I generally like the game - but the game loses alot of enjoyment if soloing is no longer enjoyable.

Yep.

I see alot of nerfs with varying degrees of stealth coming from this, all the while couched in terms of balance.

Im fine if people can't solo mid-high skull reapers as they can ramp down a few skulls. The people this will impact the most are those who are gated out of reaper into elite or hard, as this will prohibit participation in an entire progression system, reaper, which they used to have access to.

People once having access to a progression system before a change where play is now prohibitive in after a change is a pain point many will find makes the game unattractive as a source of entertainment.

[MasterDragonan]

[QUOTE=donblas;6463027]

You can only twist from 5 different trees if you have enough fate points, and you seemed skeptical i could even find three tree i'd want to use, never mind 6!

Is levelling 20-30 a slog? I suppose the lack of progression in the current system is rather boring.

Then what is the point of Epic if it is a same thing as heroic?
Just call it heroic, fuse ED trees with heroic and be done with it.
Epic should be different and not a same thing over.

[droid327]

Why is levelling three trees that i want to be in like levelling an off destiny that I absolutely hate?

Because in both cases you're forced to level without being able to use the build-defining destiny abilities you want to. Right now, because you're in an off destiny....after u51, because they're gated till L28 or whatever

Only right now you only occasionally have to grind off destinies, there are ways to gain off sphere karma without grinding quests too, and you can always swap back if you really need to be full strength for something. U51, you'll be suppressed every single life and you can't do anything about it until you're back at cap

[Axeyu]

Yep.

I see alot of nerfs with varying degrees of stealth coming from this, all the while couched in terms of balance.

Im fine if people can't solo mid-high skull reapers. The people this will impact the most are those who are gated out of reaper into elite or hard, as this will prohibit participation in an entire progression system, reaper, which they used to have access to.

Does this mean you have come around on the reaper self healing penalty?

[MasterDragonan]

Take the best ideas from the existing plan for U51, keep those.
- Pick any Epic Past life you want, no need for Karma, or running in off destinies
- Add the new Epic Destinies, the pact dmg one sounds interesting for Warlocks

Move the Level Gating Epic Destinies idea out to something like Update 75.

Use all that time you saved in trying to fix all of the fallout from what would have been a massive disaster on continuing the work started with U50.
- Update Eveningstar Commendation items
- Update Eveningstar Challenge items

Realize by Update 52 that you dodged a howitzer round in what would have happened with level gated epic destinies. Quietly delete all references of level gated epic destinies from DDO webpages. Celebrate by giving all of the loyal and returning customers a free quest pack.

Profit!

This is the best thing I have heard for long time here. They really need to listen to you.
They are wasting so much time on such ridiculous things.
When they could have invested all that time in better things.

[MasterDragonan]

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

If you are just trying to get your players rage quit, by lowering their power, flexibility, convenience and in general quality of life and game play, good job you are on right track. Every time I come back to get their is less and less people play and my guild used to be full of people who played every day. Please STOP fixing what isn't broken and focus on things that are!

No one likes losing power and ability to play game, game should be fun and not struggle.

[Shavron]

If you are just trying to get your players rage quit, by lowering their power, flexibility, convenience and in general quality of life and game play, good job you are on right track. Every time I come back to get their is less and less people play and my guild used to be full of people who played every day. Please STOP fixing what isn't broken and focus on things that are!

No one likes losing power and ability to play game, game should be fun and not struggle.

They don't listen.
They don't give a ****.

[Oxarhamar]

Here's a video of us talking about why we're not moving forward with the charge system within the EDs. If you need further clarification, please let me know, and we hope you enjoy taking a look at the 2nd preview for Update 51

You said in the video something to the effect of ~ “I think people looked at it how they imagined it would work…

No not at all tested it on Preview server

It played like it came straight outa WoW from years past

Example:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ten...d-spenders.amp

Snip~. Little did I know at the time that one of my least favorite of all combat mechanics introduced with vanilla WoW – Builders and Spenders – would prove to be so influential on MMO combat in the years that followed

I will repeat my feedback

It’s cookie cutter & what makes DDO is that it’s different than all the cookie cutter mmos


Ifn I wanted Vanilla WoW combat
1 I would not have quit Vanilla WoW when that was still a thing
2 I would just go play WoW classic
Or could play whatever other games that copy paste that terribad combat system

[erethizon]

Yep.

I see alot of nerfs with varying degrees of stealth coming from this, all the while couched in terms of balance.

Im fine if people can't solo mid-high skull reapers as they can ramp down a few skulls. The people this will impact the most are those who are gated out of reaper into elite or hard, as this will prohibit participation in an entire progression system, reaper, which they used to have access to.

People once having access to a progression system before a change where play is now prohibitive in after a change is a pain point many will find makes the game unattractive as a source of entertainment.

It really comes down to how well they balance epic dungeons. In the DDO podcast interview they said in update 50 they did the loot stat squish and lowered the difficulty of the highest legendary monsters. In update 51 they are redoing epic destinies and changing the difficulty curve of epic levels (i.e. level 20-29 content is supposedly being made easier in update 51). Time will tell if they get this right. Making non-legendary epic content easier has been needed for a long time. If they get it right these two updates will be a vast improvement over the way things have been. I don't care if I get immediate access to my full destiny and twists at level 20 as long as the game is easier at all times even without them.

[erethizon]

If you are just trying to get your players rage quit, by lowering their power, flexibility, convenience and in general quality of life and game play, good job you are on right track. Every time I come back to get their is less and less people play and my guild used to be full of people who played every day. Please STOP fixing what isn't broken and focus on things that are!

No one likes losing power and ability to play game, game should be fun and not struggle.

Their plan is to make the game less of a struggle. Currently epics are way too hard and that is because some people have way too much power at level 20 (and it was even worse at level 30). It was like what happened with Sharn. Because some players (but most definitely not all) found Ravenloft to be too easy they made Sharn way, way, too difficult because they also made Sharn gear better than previous gear. When some people have power the entire game gets ruined on their behalf. It's not like Sharn checked to see if you were wearing super gear before it raised all your opponents stats through the roof. It happened automatically. If bringing down our power is needed to finally bring down the power of our opponents I am all for it, because under the current system all opponents have too much power but only some of the players.

[Standal]

Their plan is to make the game less of a struggle. Currently epics are way too hard and that is because some people have way too much power at level 20 (and it was even worse at level 30). It was like what happened with Sharn. Because some players (but most definitely not all) found Ravenloft to be too easy they made Sharn way, way, too difficult because they also made Sharn gear better than previous gear. When some people have power the entire game gets ruined on their behalf. It's not like Sharn checked to see if you were wearing super gear before it raised all your opponents stats through the roof. It happened automatically. If bringing down our power is needed to finally bring down the power of our opponents I am all for it, because under the current system all opponents have too much power but only some of the players.

I normally hate this, but if you can't solo Epic Normal now, you need to just figure out why you're so terrible. If your problem is that you feel entitled to solo Epic Reapers because you logged on, you need to either work you characters up on difficulties you can handle, figure out what you're doing wrong, or just quit. There's no reason for you to try to convince the devs they need to break the game because you're an awful player.

[Tsutti]

I normally hate this, but if you can't solo Epic Normal now, you need to just figure out why you're so terrible. If your problem is that you feel entitled to solo Epic Reapers because you logged on, you need to either work you characters up on difficulties you can handle, figure out what you're doing wrong, or just quit. There's no reason for you to try to convince the devs they need to break the game because you're an awful player.

This matter is a lot more complex than "can a person solo epic reaper." Just because it can be easily soloed doesn't mean it's not way harder than it should be and that players get way more power than they should. Epics just feel crummy and it's got to do with the way things scale, in particular (as has been pointed out in many threads) the fact that epic elite is like 5x harder than epic hard (that level of difficulty increase makes zero sense under any circumstances). The problem is that past solutions to the fact that players found the game too easy with all their destinies and cap gear and stuff at level 20 were to just make enemies randomly way more powerful instead of fixing the power flood gates that had been broken. The devs aren't breaking the game because it's already broken with regards to this particular mechanic (epic destinies and epic questing), and they're attempting to fix it (well I guess you can break a broken thing more but I don't think that's how it's looking to be so far).