Alternative numerical progression to make the game better

[TheAlicornSage]

I present this idea because if the devs are going to rescale so much, I think rescaling like this would be better overall than just rescaling the endgame. This gives more consistency across the board and keeps the super hardcore guys that max out individual stats as much as possible from outshining the more casual players so much that they need to be treated differently. It also means that players don't have to worry so much about "keeping up" with their friends, because even if they are not quite as optimized they can still be close enough to be useful and thus have fun together even if they can't devote as much time and money to be as perfectly number-crunched as their friends.

Additionally, this is the basic structure I'll be using for my own rpg (different names and slight tweaks of course, for example, my system doesn't have negative bonuses from low ability scores), so I'd like feedback on both fronts, how it might work for DDO as well as it's merits on it's own.

I understand that most players will not like to feel as though they are losing power, and getting smaller numbers. This is addressed in the bonuses section.

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The idea here is to establish a regular formula for numbers to keep the range of possible values from minimum to maximum small even at max lvl. Comparing scores of 20-30 vs scores of 100-120 at the same lvl is just not right, and cross-class skills are basically pointless because you can't get them high enough for even the low DC values at higher lvls. This means that those who are capped out with the biggest tomes and the best items and everything plus the kitchen sink (that really needs to be added as a trinket item) are not so far ahead that a same lvl casual is incapable of even playing with them because of being so incredibly weak by comparison.

I assume a max lvl of 30 will not change (and considering that creatures with a lvl equivalent in the 40s literally kill gods, it's a bad idea to even begin going higher)

There are four basic groups to consider, to hit/AC, saves, skills, and bonuses. But these are built on ability scores, so that's first.

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NOTE: TIER
I use tier regularly below. Tier is each block of 6 levels. So tier 1 is lvl 1 through lvl 6, then 7 through 12, etc. There are thus 6 tiers.

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ABILITY SCORES
These add to everything, so have to be considered first, to see how the range of ability scores will impact everything else.
Here, the idea is that ability score increases from leveling increase all ability scores by 1. This means that even the dump stats will have a minimum of +1 at lvl cap, and unless it is the racial -2, it will be a +2 bonus minimum instead which means most cases will be a minimum of +2 bonus at lvl cap without any boosts.

Then we aim for the maximum ability score value to be 40. This can be achieved while maintaining plenty of bonuses to ability scores by having those bonuses be the points that one spends doing the point buy, meaning that each +1 to the total ability score costs more and more of these points. With a maximum starting score of 20 including the racial bonus, plus 7 from leveling to lvl 30, then spending 100 points according to the point buy costs implied progression, you get an ability score max of 36, and 153 points to get a score of 40.

Thus, the idea here is that any bonuses to ability scores will apply like adding points to the point buy progression, meaning that +16 points will boost a score of 8 to 16, but will boost a score of 20 only to 22. With this, we can set max expectation from various bonus types so that someone who is leveraging every bonus point can still get amazing number of points, and yet still cap out at an ability score of 40.

I'll go into further detail on bonus types in their own section.

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TO HIT

Instead of the standard BAB progression advancing as a ratio of class lvl, instead, everybody gets a baseline BAB equal to character level, and various classes will gain the occasional +1 (max of +7 from these bonuses). So a fighter will get a +1 at first lvl and again at every lvl divisible by 5 (1,5,10,15,20). Other full martial classes might get a bonus at lvl 2 and every 6 lvls thereafter (2, 8, 14, 20) and mid BAB classes like cleric can get a +1 every 10 lvls (10, 20). Since epic lvls are treated as their own class, epic gets a +1 at 25 and 30. Thus, fighters cap out bab at lvl+7, other full martials cap at lvl+6, mid martials cap at lvl+4, and low bab cap at lvl+2.

This may seem small, but consider the impact of equipment and spells and ability scores.

Casters normally need a high stat different from that which is added to attack, which mean they will get a lower bonus to hit from ability scores as well as from bab, widening that gap. Yet because ability scores are evened out, even the few cases where a caster can change the ability used to their casting stat (like EK tree), they still are merely close to martials and not quite equal. In any case, in general an ability score has a range from +1 to +15, and add in the bab range from +32 to +37, and you get a total possible range of +33 to +52 at cap, without bonuses. That's a range of 19. Meaning that something that can only be missed by the top fighter rolling a 1 can still be hit by a wizard rolling a 20. Then we add in bonuses which makes the gap worse, however, those bonuses are even out by the same bonuses on the other side.

Evening out AC to keep pace with BAB requires quite a bit of change. Currently, an epic wizard can have an AC of 8, which is so low that nothing can possibly miss. That's largely because while attacking goes up with lvl and skill, AC has only gone up with equipment. This needs to change to close the gap.

So now, AC starts with 10 (because that is essentially the opponent's opposing roll) and adds lvl.Armor then adds a small bonus, such that wearing armor roughly correlates with class bonus to bab. Cloth armor is +0, light armor is +1, medium armor is +2, and heavy armor is +4. Light shields are +1, and heavy shields are +2. Tower shields are +3. These bonuses are what evens out AC against BAB bonuses from class, so the +7 to hit from being a fighter is matched against a +7 from heavy armor and a tower shield.

(At this point you are probably asking how that won't screw up the variation of different armors. Well, that is possible by making the bonus work only against certain types of dmg/atk. Gambeson (aka padded armor) and leather are both light, but being of different character, the gambeson can add it's bonus +1 against acid, sonic, and cold attacks, while leather adds it's bonus against slashing and bludgeoning. Meaning that armor types have strengths and weaknesses making it a more strategic choice in what armor is worn than simply armor bonus and magic effects. In each weight, armors can be better or worse according to this. So a chain shirt, supposedly the best non-magical light armor there is, can add it's +1 against cold, sonic, slashing, force, electricity, and acid, far more than other light armors, but leather still has the advantage of being good against bludgeoning because it's hardened leather plates are stiff rather than the flexible cloth of chain (and gambeson underneath obviously). Same applies to heavier armors, but they have more points to fiddle with, so they can give full or partial bonuses to different attacks. Of course, literal weight, ASF, armor check penalties, etc also makes things differ. Not sure if this can be implemented in the engine though, so I didn't count on it. If that can't be coded into the game, this can be DR/resistance variation instead using a sort of "armor as DR" rules.)

Monks passive AC bonus is one third current value, giving up to a +5 at lvl 20. Doesn't stack with armor because it doesn't work while armored.

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SKILLS

Skill DCs have three possibilities in each quest, low, medium, and high.

Players with few or no ranks in a skill can still pass the occasional check, especially if they get an item with bonus to that skill. Not very reliable, but often enough to be useful.

Players who invest in a cross class skill can now generally beat low DCs and sometimes medium DCs, though will still need to invest in item bonuses and such to gain any kind of reliability but it is possible and certainly not required to have a skill as a class skill to be useful. Can even occasionally pass high DCs once fully optimized.

Players with a class skill maxed out ranks and such can still fail low DCS and medium DCs if they have no bonuses and not maxed out ability score, at least at lower lvls. Beating High DCs is still challenging and uncertain until fully optimized, however, even then, success is not certain even at cap until beyond cap bonuses are gained.

Low DCs are for minions and tiny things, occasional checks and monster weaknesses.

Medium DCs are for the common stuff in a quest, players dedicated to a skill whether cross class or not can be useful against most checks, meaning that there is value in investing even partially into a skill, but clearly inferior to full investment in a class skill.

High DCs are for bosses and rare things, thus giving players with class skills and fully invested in a skill can shine as better than cross class and others who only moderately invested in a skill.

These skills include things like spot/listen checks, and monsters can be differentiated by having low, medium, or high DCs. Same for diplomacy, intimidate, and other similar uses of skills against mobs.

The intent is that most of the time, DCs will be around the medium DC progression, but bosses and similar situations of above normal difficulty can be around the high DC. Quest can easily implement the various difficulties and reaper levels by keying them to the formula based on lvl, then possibly adding or subtracting a static couple of points for variation and tweaking.

(note: CC is cross class full ranks, full is class skill full ranks.
Tier is every 5 lvls)
High DCs 10+(lvl*1.5)+(6-tier)
CC, full bns: 50% drop to 10% at epic, up to 40% at cap, maxed at 110%
CC, some bns: fail by lvl 9-12
CC, no bns: same as min
Full, all bns: 55% up to 90% at cap
Full, some bns: 30% to 40% till cap
Full, no bns: around 0% after lvl 15
Full at cap, maxed: 160%
No ranks, some bns: fail by lvl 6
minimum: impossible by lvl 3

mid DCs 5+(lvl)+(6-tier)
CC, full bns: no fail by epic
CC, some bns: 40%-50% till epic up to 85% at cap
CC, no bns: 20%-30% for range till near cap up to 40%
Full, all bns: certain by lvl 6
Full, some bns: certain by epic
Full, no bns: 40%-60% till cap
Full at cap, maxed: 260%
No ranks, some bns: 55% down to nil by epic, up again to 15% at cap
minimum: impossible by lvl 11

low DCs 5+lvl/2
CC, some bns: Stable moderate 40-60%
CC, no bns: 60% drops to 30%, back up to 45% at cap
Full, all bns: can't fail ever
Full, some bns: can't fail by epic
Full, no bns: 65% rises to 95% at lvl 30
No ranks, some bns: 60% drops to impossible around lvl 17
minimum: impossible by lvl 13


This assumes no change in how skill ranks are gained, so spending ranks as normal until lvl 20 then +1 to all skills every epic lvl.

I also continued the scale with DCs going up to lvl 50 (and increasing tier every 5 lvls), the idea being that greater challenge can be easily assisted by increasing the effective lvl of a quest in addition to champions and such other techniques. Also assumed that beating those higher lvls is needed to gain better "post-cap" gear.

Progression assumptions: Ability score bonuses improve by 1 every 5 lvls.
Of course, jump DCs are a different matter and can be left alone as they are. (However, as a possibility, jump could be allowed to increase with jump height capped, but with higher jump skill you could possibly decrease the rise and fall speed for a set distance to effectively allow jumping greater distances despite the height cap.)

Endgame DCs.

Extra high DC formula: 10+(lvl*2)+(6-tier)
A player with a cross class skill maxed out needs every last possible point to beat a lvl 30 extra high DC on a die roll of 13 or better. During the expected progression of bonuses, a cross class skill kept at max can not beat this DC after lvl 12 until they get the absolute best gear bonuses in the game. This basically means that anything with this DC can not be beaten except by those players built around that skill and grabbing every last bonus they can with full ability scores and class skill and full item/spell bonuses. Even such a player has only a 15% chance of success at cap without post-cap gear

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SAVES

Save DCs: 10+spell/effect lvl+caster lvl
Changing this from casting stat to caster lvl evens out the save chances pretty well. maxed out gear and ability score saves will have a 90% chance to beat a lvl 9 spell DC with a caster level of 30 (assuming you can get around +10 CL from various effects.)

Below the cap, low saves are +-2 throughout the levels and high saves gain around +6 over 30 levels. With max ability scores, low saves are 20-35% chance to beat a lvl 9 spell of equal CL, and for high saves that is 35% slowly rising to 65%. That assumes keeping up with item bonus progression as well. Lower ability scores reduce this chance pretty directly dropping by 5% per point of ability modifier. Likewise, gains 5% success for each lower SL.

Beyond reaching the cap, adding existing bonuses to spell DCs and bonuses to ability scores and saves are similar enough to not get too far apart and thus maintain some chance of pass or fail.

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BONUSES

Bonuses are broken into four basic categories, enhancement(Heroic), insight(Epic), mythic(Legendary), and Festive.

The various bonus types can still exist but all bonuses are in one of the four categories.

However, bonuses are no longer direct bonuses, instead, they add to the score for a category. The total stacking score in a category determines the bonus gained from that category.

The scale is geometric. Each +1 requires more points to achieve.

Thus,
+1 is 1 point
+2 is 3 points (2 bonus +1 previous points)
+3 is 6 points (3 bonus +3 previous points)
+4 is 10 points (4 bonus +6 previous points)
etc.

The expectation is that each category will get 55 or less points at maximum, Except festive which should remain half that or less.

Enhancement category is for the regular bonuses gained throughout the game from the lowest levels and should be getting around 1 point per level.

Insight and mythic bonuses are just like the enhancement except starting at lvls 21 and 31 respectively.

Progression continues to lvl 50, though assuming that anything beyond lvl 30 on the player's side is ML 30. Basically, players must take on higher lvl quests (by doing quests at higher difficulty or reaper mode, or similar) to get gear of "higher level" even though it will actually still be usable by lvl 30 players.

One advantage here is that the difference between those who have attained all this extra high gear and those who haven't is small enough to allow such players to group up just fine.

You'll also notice the diminishing returns. This allows a greater amount of spreading one's bonuses around to various abilities to good effect as it takes less away from one's prime abilities and yet gives far more to secondary abilities. Having a sorcerer that can sneak is viable, might not work against the boss or all the minibosses, but can work well against minions or at a distance (assuming range penalties have been kept in ddo). Diminishing returns also allows a greater allowance for variation at high level gear as the ultimate impact will less for optimizers. It also gives optimizers plenty of points to go chasing after without leaving everyone else so far behind as to be in a totally different incompatible group.

The ability score bonuses work a bit different, instead of the score going up by the bonus, any bonuses add to the effective point buy of the score. As scores go up, the points need to buy that higher score is greater. This change means that a +8 tome will raise a low score by a lot, while raising a high score by 1 or 2. It also means that tomes no longer need to be capped by level, as they will not raise an ability score too far out of expected range for even first level. In fact, the max starting score is 20 if the score was 18 plus racial bonus, and adding a +8 tome to that will only give a score of 21.

This change to ability score progression also means that scores are effectively limited to 40 if all stackable points are kept below 168, or 230 points if increases from leveling also simply added points. Ideally, only the most extreme optimization would reach this. Capping this at 167 would mean the lowest starting ability score could still become 36 when adding 167 points.

This change would make the spells which add +4 to an ability score much more valuable even at later levels, although I would still much prefer making the bonus from such spells be points that scale with CL.

Of course, any change of this sort will be met with resistance. Players who like getting more numbers will at first dislike the lost numbers. However, if the devs keep the current bonuses low, only about 2/3rds of what they can fit to this scheme, that means they can add more and have a bit of creep in the next few expansions without ruining the result, and in fact, due to the diminishing returns, they can probably add more points for a long time with less impact. Those points still matter, and those who are good at collecting all the various bonuses together will certainly notice a big difference compared to the casual players, and yet it won't prevent optimizers from being able to play with casuals.

[kpak01]

Additionally, this is the basic structure I'll be using for my own rpg (different names and slight tweaks of course, for example, my system doesn't have negative bonuses from low ability scores), so I'd like feedback on both fronts, how it might work for DDO as well as it's merits on it's own.

I have no opinion of how your non-D&D system will work in your own personal rpg. If you want to go play some non-D&D game, fine, do it.

But this proposal for wholesale removal of even more of what little remains of D&D in DDO is not welcome by me. Devs have tons of ways to address game balance, progression, scaling, blah blah blah, that do not require in any way changing basic fundamental D&D game mechanics.

[rabidfox]

Comparing scores of 20-30 vs scores of 100-120 at the same lvl is just not right, and cross-class skills are basically pointless because you can't get them high enough for even the low DC values at higher lvls. This means that those who are capped out with the biggest tomes and the best items and everything plus the kitchen sink (that really needs to be added as a trinket item) are not so far ahead that a same lvl casual is incapable of even playing with them because of being so incredibly weak by comparison.

Or just equip gear for said stat/skill; a score 20-30 is someone running around naked at cap. It's a progressive gaming system with a difficulty selector, those who don't want to do basic stuff like gearing their character don't have to turn the dial up.

[TheAlicornSage]

I have no opinion of how your non-D&D system will work in your own personal rpg. If you want to go play some non-D&D game, fine, do it.

But this proposal for wholesale removal of even more of what little remains of D&D in DDO is not welcome by me. Devs have tons of ways to address game balance, progression, scaling, blah blah blah, that do not require in any way changing basic fundamental D&D game mechanics.

Frankly, I sort of agree with you, except, the rules in the book are already nearly broken by lvl 20, hence why epic lvl had to change the rules a bit just the ttrpg. However, ddo has grown a greater focus on loot and stuff and drastically increased the various ways to get larger numbers which has totally gone too far, hence why they are having issues. Fixing that means either A) dumping a whole bunch of their work to get back to the core rules, or B) change what they doing to be both more reasonable and also less constrained on gear and loot and that stuff they are trying to provide.

Just consider the post beneath yours, some guy claiming that ability scores of 20-30 is normal for naked characters, except the core rules for dnd do not at all make that normal. In the ttrpg, getting just a couple scores that high is from having plenty of gear and maybe a spell buff. Also consider that poster's comment "just wear gear" like that's supposed to solve everything.

I'd love to return to the core mechanics, but that is even less likely than them following the idea I oresented. So my idea was about practical and viable solutions cause they most certainly won't return to the now limited by comparison ttrpg mechanics.

[TheAlicornSage]

Or just equip gear for said stat/skill; a score 20-30 is someone running around naked at cap. It's a progressive gaming system with a difficulty selector, those who don't want to do basic stuff like gearing their character don't have to turn the dial up.

Three problems with this,

A) can't equip gear for everything

B) friends can play together unless they keep up. You can't have someone who has all the latest gear and tome bonuses and other stupid stuff play with someone who is a casual or lacks the time to play as much as everyone else. This also means PUGs suffer as well.

C) at heroic levels I could play elite on a quest that was 4 levels above me on normal, with me as a casual. Now in epic, even +1 lvl is exponentially more difficult, switching from 3-5 hits from minor mobs to kill me at lvl, up to getting one-shotted from minor mobs at one level above me. To say nothing of DCs and saves.

Grinding to have a bunch of stupid gear just to play non-reaper is not fun. I'm here for the adventure, the story, the exploration. I don't care about loot all that much, I hate grinding with a passion, and I like a bit of combat with game but not too much, certainly I have zero desire to reduce all my gameplay to just combat, and definitely not a form of combat that is built around strategic building of gear/stats with absolutely stupid tactics like rushing right into the fray. The inclusion of environment and cc and isolation if enemies and other such things are my way of fighting.

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, I played that quest that requires you to not kill certain kobolds while you steal a gem. I was way overleveled for it, and I still can't get any of them to fall asleep, even from the greater sleep spell. If I'm so high lvl that I don't even get xp for the quest, there us no reason for their DCs to be so high. It means that their expectations are so high because of the ootimizers that a casual player has no chance of keeping up on normal difficulty. It's also a complete mismatch, because I could still overpower them with dmg and take little dmg in return, even though I couldn't get them to fail a single save.

That should never happen. It's bad design.

[rabidfox]

Grinding to have a bunch of stupid gear just to play non-reaper is not fun. I'm here for the adventure, the story, the exploration. I don't care about loot all that much, I hate grinding with a passion, and I like a bit of combat with game but not too much, certainly I have zero desire to reduce all my gameplay to just combat, and definitely not a form of combat that is built around strategic building of gear/stats with absolutely stupid tactics like rushing right into the fray. The inclusion of environment and cc and isolation if enemies and other such things are my way of fighting.

And that's what casual/normal setting is for. For flower sniffing with flavor builds that don't need gear.

friends can play together unless they keep up. You can't have someone who has all the latest gear and tome bonuses and other stupid stuff play with someone who is a casual or lacks the time to play as much as everyone else. This also means PUGs suffer as well.

Your friends can always strip down gear and reset their reaper points. But that still won't help a lot of casuals, a solid player with RNG loot, zero reaper XP, a good build, and good use of tactics will still move fast and leave a wake of destruction in their path (as happens over on hardcore). For someone on the extreme casual side, they need to join a casual flower sniffer guild and run with like-minded, similarly built & geared players.

[TheAlicornSage]

And that's what casual/normal setting is for. For flower sniffing with flavor builds that don't need gear.

Everything I said applies to normal setting. The examples I gave were all on normal, aside from the one that I called out otherwise. The stupid kobolds who never failed a save, that was normal difficulty.

Your friends can always strip down gear and reset their reaper points.

Have you met the human race? That is not something most people would do.

But that still won't help a lot of casuals, a solid player with RNG loot, zero reaper XP, a good build, and good use of tactics will still move fast and leave a wake of destruction in their path (as happens over on hardcore). For someone on the extreme casual side, they need to join a casual flower sniffer guild and run with like-minded, similarly built & geared players.

There is a distinct problem with this statement. You are basically saying "play the game right instead of playing it wrong." Well firstly, you assume that your way is the right way, second, my solution works regardless of whether you play right or wrong and that that people who disagree with you about how to play correctly can still have fun and play together. Frankly, "can play wrong and still have fun" is the better option.

[DYWYPI]

I explained how you could deal with the Kobold Prophets in 'Stealthy Repossession' several days ago [Post #2]. It's easy enough to sneak through that whole quest without killing anything on a Rogue at level. However, it's much more trickier doing the following: Level 4: The Saint: Stealthy Repossession, all prophets alive, 25 kills.

Playing heroic quests on Normal that are two or three quest levels higher than your Character level is still generally easier than playing Elite at level, with regards to the dungeon's difficulty.

[TheAlicornSage]

I explained how you could deal with the Kobold Prophets in 'Stealthy Repossession' several days ago [Post #2]. It's easy enough to sneak through that whole quest without killing anything on a Rogue at level. However, it's much more trickier doing the following: Level 4: The Saint: Stealthy Repossession, all prophets alive, 25 kills.

Playing heroic quests on Normal that are two or three quest levels higher than your Character level is still generally easier than playing Elite at level, with regards to the dungeon's difficulty.

I wasn't talking about just the prophets. None of the kobold types, save one single kobold, failed saves. That includes all the minions. Additionally, I had decent stealth scores, though admittedly I was a wizard and thus the scores were cross class rather than full class skills. I had the cutthroat's smallblade so I had +10 hide/silence and dex is second highest stat. Considering that I was several levels above the quest level and had heroism cast, my skills should've been enough, but neither my skills nor my spells were effective against anything except for dmg output and defenses.

At the very least if nothing else you can't claim there isn't a mismatch between the two gameplay aspects. There is no reason what-so-ever for a quest to be insanely easy in regards to combat (to the point that I basically just walked to the end and finished whike ignoring the attacking kobolds) and yet at the same time be impossible in regards to skills and DCs even against the lowest minions.


I was lvl 15 or 17 at the time, with a lvl of rogue and sorc, rest wizard.