Alternative Caster Stat and Practised Spellcaster Feats

[wax_on_wax_off]

I would like to see a series of alternative casting stat feats for various casting classes:
- allows a caster to use a different stat to determine some combination of DCs, spell access and bonus spell points.

For instance:
Lore-bound Music
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your charisma modifier when determining the DCs of your bard spells (but not bonus spell points or spell access).

- can be enhanced within the spellsinger tree to also provide bonus spell points based on intelligence

Insightful Divinity
Benefit: You may use your Intelligence modifier instead of your wisdom modifier when determining the DCs of your cleric spells (but not bonus spell points or spell access).

- granted for free if you take Knowledge domain

Charismatic Divinity
Benefit: You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your wisdom modifier when determining the DCs of your cleric spells (but not bonus spell points or spell access).

I think feats like this would make TR'ing more FUN as you don't have to completely regear when switching between some casting classes and it would create more build diversity by opening up some niche builds.

Practised Spellcaster feat:
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 4 ranks
Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice or 20, before epic levels are applied, whichever is lower.

I'm sure that this feat as been suggested before and it could really take the sting out of what would otherwise be some really fun builds, especially for newer players.

[TheAlicornSage]

This is a very bad idea. Right now, there are hard choices. For example, choosing sorcerer requires a high cha which is not much use to combat, so the idea of being an eldritch knight means juggling multiple scores that you want to be real high.

Being able to choose the casting stat means aligning your stats so you can focus on just one, and that is a bad design. Taken too far, this idea means you might as well just have one main stat and not even pretend it means anything beyond the mechanics, and then have the other stats as pure secondary if at all.

No, the array of stats is to force hard choices.

This is one of those cases where the players wanting something but not getting it, is a sign that they need to make hard meaningful choices. Take that away and you lose a very important part of the game.

You ever hear the saying about having your cake and eating it too? In games, it generally makes for a better experience to be unable to eat your cake and still have it, even though naturally you want exactly that. Needing to choose which way to go because you can't have it all is important.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This is a very bad idea. Right now, there are hard choices. For example, choosing sorcerer requires a high cha which is not much use to combat, so the idea of being an eldritch knight means juggling multiple scores that you want to be real high.

Being able to choose the casting stat means aligning your stats so you can focus on just one, and that is a bad design. Taken too far, this idea means you might as well just have one main stat and not even pretend it means anything beyond the mechanics, and then have the other stats as pure secondary if at all.

No, the array of stats is to force hard choices.

This is one of those cases where the players wanting something but not getting it, is a sign that they need to make hard meaningful choices. Take that away and you lose a very important part of the game.

You ever hear the saying about having your cake and eating it too? In games, it generally makes for a better experience to be unable to eat your cake and still have it, even though naturally you want exactly that. Needing to choose which way to go because you can't have it all is important.

Except that in your actual example you can take Feydark Illusionist's Familiars Flourish I and II and do literally exactly that. While your argument was completely right a dozen or so years ago the trend has been for more ways for combat oriented characters to leverage different stats. When the current state of the games allows you to use almost any stat for attack and damage and to be able to stack a battle Trance on top of it how would it be detrimental to the game to allow customisation in a different way?

Compared to a 6 AP investment into Feydark spending a feat is massive!

I didn't suggest it as a blanket choice for every caster to be able to rekey for any stat but rather for cases where it is thematic (and in most cases has a basis in pen and paper).

[cru121]

I would like to see a series of alternative casting stat feats for various casting classes:

I liked these in PnP. More options are good. Wasn't there a feat or ACF for dwarf sorcerers to use Con instead of Cha?

I wonder how much implementation effort would these require...

[TheAlicornSage]

Except that in your actual example you can take Feydark Illusionist's Familiars Flourish I and II and do literally exactly that. While your argument was completely right a dozen or so years ago the trend has been for more ways for combat oriented characters to leverage different stats. When the current state of the games allows you to use almost any stat for attack and damage and to be able to stack a battle Trance on top of it how would it be detrimental to the game to allow customisation in a different way?

Honestly, I hadn't realized so many options existed. Of course, I've only spent around $120 since the game came out, because I'm poor, so I don't have all those cash shop options to play with. Still, I think it's a bad idea to have it. They may have started with the bad ideas already, but that doesn't make me agree with them.

Compared to a 6 AP investment into Feydark spending a feat is massive!

The resource expenditure is an important consideration. Despite most classes being rather feat starved, I can easily see this becoming a must have choice, and must have choices should be avoided, especially if makes a scarce resource feel even more scarce.

I didn't suggest it as a blanket choice for every caster to be able to rekey for any stat but rather for cases where it is thematic (and in most cases has a basis in pen and paper).

Thematic is good, but getting such things to remain thematic once mechanical choices start dictating available options can become difficult.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Honestly, I hadn't realized so many options existed. Of course, I've only spent around $120 since the game came out, because I'm poor, so I don't have all those cash shop options to play with. Still, I think it's a bad idea to have it. They may have started with the bad ideas already, but that doesn't make me agree with them.



The resource expenditure is an important consideration. Despite most classes being rather feat starved, I can easily see this becoming a must have choice, and must have choices should be avoided, especially if makes a scarce resource feel even more scarce.



Thematic is good, but getting such things to remain thematic once mechanical choices start dictating available options can become difficult.

That's really cool! I was a freemium player right back from level cap 20 until the release of MotU, at one point I think I'd unlocked all "relevant" content and only spent about $6 by farming favour on different servers.

Stat switching and leverage has been a part of DDO before DDO existed in the former of 3.5e D&D which had the weapon finesse feat, Divine Might, Insightful Reflexes and other feats and abilities. DDO has just built on it in a sort of obvious progression.

My suggestions specifically tried to avoid a situation in which it would become a "must have" feat by specifying that bonus spell points would still be keyed to the original stat and you would still require 10+level of spell in the original stat to cast the spell.

A Barbarian could choose to use any of the 5 other stats to be there damage stat but strength is still better (though I might try a dexterity based swashbuckler/Barbarian at some point even if it won't be the strongest!).

Options are just that. End of the day, having more ways to fulfill character concepts even if it isn't absolutely optimal is good for the game.

[TheAlicornSage]

That's really cool! I was a freemium player right back from level cap 20 until the release of MotU, at one point I think I'd unlocked all "relevant" content and only spent about $6 by farming favour on different servers.

Stat switching and leverage has been a part of DDO before DDO existed in the former of 3.5e D&D which had the weapon finesse feat, Divine Might, Insightful Reflexes and other feats and abilities. DDO has just built on it in a sort of obvious progression.

My suggestions specifically tried to avoid a situation in which it would become a "must have" feat by specifying that bonus spell points would still be keyed to the original stat and you would still require 10+level of spell in the original stat to cast the spell.

A Barbarian could choose to use any of the 5 other stats to be there damage stat but strength is still better (though I might try a dexterity based swashbuckler/Barbarian at some point even if it won't be the strongest!).

Options are just that. End of the day, having more ways to fulfill character concepts even if it isn't absolutely optimal is good for the game.

I'm more lenient to tabletop play because A) thematic actually matters a lot and can impact results beyond the mere mechanics, and B) there is a human being, the gm, who able to prevent things from getting out of hand or being used against the thematic. I.E. a player selects dex as an uber stat and yet portrays their character in a very non-dextrous way, a gm can do something about it.

Computers can't do anything at all beyond mechanics, and players on a crpg tend to be more focused on the nechanics and optimization even more than ttrpg players. Without a gm to keep things in check without being disruptive, and designers who are just as suseptible to the greater focus on mechanics, I feel it's better to avoid such things more strictly.