Since we like to scale things - spells need scaling upward...

[Merrillman]

Case in point, if heighten is used on a spell, only damage is scaled, and not much else. What about ability score modifier spells? What about Jump? What about max caster level coming up by the heightened levels? Area of effect getting bigger and hit dice affected scaling up?

Yiu can do these things in actual D&D by way of casting (essentially) a scaled up DD version of Heighten. Why can’t these low level spells become more useful? I mean CANTRIPS in D&D when used in higher level slots (another idea is dragging a low level spell to a higher level spell slot, therefore turning it into that level of spell, and it uses that level’s spell slot, son you’re not really gaining an extra spell of, say, 5th level. I don’t know the game code logistics for such an undertaking, but I believe it would lead to more spells being useable and viable the whole game, and not just at low level.

Mage armor is a perfect example of a spell worth doing this to. A +4 bonus to AC is utterly useless above a certain level. But 4 plus 4 AC and 1 PRR per spell level is maybe worth taking even at level 30. Use a 9th level slot for Mage Armor? Ok. You lose a 9th level spell, but maybe Conjuration & Abjuration protection (hey now there’s a specialty tree!!) is more your thing? Abjurer EK would become more viable at endgame as a flavor build, and could be a lot of fun. I mean what’s 36 AC when the difference between 100 AC & 136 is probably of a 3% less chance to be hit by high level foes? But it may be that difference and help just enough to avoid a one shot with an extra 8 PRR too.

Non-Damage Spells could use a QOL pass like this. My 2c... thanks!

[dredre9987]

Bring on the Spellplague...

[TheAlicornSage]

Bring on the Spellplague...

Too late for that. The spellplague is what allowed dragonborn and shadarkai to exist. It brought the dragonborn from abadai or whatever the name is, and also resulted in the creation of the shadowfell from mixing the negative energy plane with the shadowplane, and the shadarkai are humans twisted by the shadowfell.

So, that means the spellplague already happened.


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If you are going to compare DDO to the tabletop game, compare it to 3rd edition, not 5th. DDO is based on the 3e rules, and frankly, I would hate for them to try bringing in 4th or 5th edition dnd in general (you might find an exception I'd like but not likely).

In particular, this means the idea of heighten is different compared to 5e.


====================================
As for the OP's statements,

Heighten spell does not raise anything but spell level, and thus indirectly the DC of the spell (the main point of doing so) and presumably whether it can bypass globes of invulnerability.

I agree the spells need to advance more. A major difference between the design of 3e and DDO is that in 3e, most everyone is low lvl and even when PCs are high level, they are supposed to be facing plenty of low lvl threats, and more importantly, 3e has a GM which can handle any powergaming and adjust things on the fly to handle anything the players might do. DDO can't do that and everything must work via the computer. There is also this idea among the MMO crowd that everybody should eventually reach max lvl and "endgame" content, something that is very contrary to 3e.

The lack of low lvl monsters on high level quests means many things that are useful against low lvl creatures are no longer useful. The addition of going up to lvl 30 (keep in mind that lvl 20 is basically demigod status in 3e) makes things so much worse.

The solution is to either bring back the variety of encounter difficulties, or make spells and abilities useful even at high levels.

Personally I think magic should be weaker than mundane, since it is much more versatile. Why use real armor if magic can work just as well after all. But magic should still be good enough to be useful.

Thus, I'd make spells scale accordingly. Mage armor might match the expected numbers of light armor with a ML equal to the CL you cast the spell for example.

Energy resistance and protection from energy are another couple of spells that really need this. DDO has expanded the DMG output a lot so those spells are already weak by the time you get them, but once you hit epic levels, protection from energy gets drained in one hit, and energy resistance makes little difference, 30 vs 300 isn't much of a difference.

Then take exhaustion, a mere -6 to stats. Someone has shown that a wizard can get their int score up to 120-140. 3e was designed for PCs to find it difficult to hit 30 when fully buffed, and even monsters would rarely get about the 50s, and nearly everything would be less than 18 or so, until higher levels which might get into the 20s, making a -6 significant, but now in DDO, a -6 is a flea bite. And Bull's strength? Doesn't even compare to items with +10 and insightful +6.

The numbers problem I discussed in the other thread is relevant here as well. The difference in numbers has changed a lot in DDO's growth, but the only bit that has touched spell numbers is the dmg curve has shifted from [CL]D6 to [CL]D6+3*SL, giving an exponential growth to what was once a linear growth (I know they called it quadratic wizard, but XD6 specifically is linear). This of course ties in to higher HP amounts, and thus has made once usable spells nearly pointless. Why bother with magic missile or even force missiles at epic lvl, when their dmg is so low as to be nearly negligible?

Frankly, they really just need to redo all the math. Do it like final fantasy did, where they have a big world plotline, a time of troubles, that leads up to a change in all the numbers to make them work better for long term play.

[Merrillman]

Too late for that. The spellplague is what allowed dragonborn and shadarkai to exist. It brought the dragonborn from abadai or whatever the name is, and also resulted in the creation of the shadowfell from mixing the negative energy plane with the shadowplane, and the shadarkai are humans twisted by the shadowfell.


As for the OP's statements,

Heighten spell does not raise anything but spell level, and thus indirectly the DC of the spell (the main point of doing so) and presumably whether it can bypass globes of invulnerability.

I agree the spells need to advance more. A major difference between the design of 3e and DDO is that in 3e, most everyone is low lvl and even when PCs are high level, they are supposed to be facing plenty of low lvl threats, and more importantly, 3e has a GM which can handle any powergaming and adjust things on the fly to handle anything the players might do. DDO can't do that and everything must work via the computer. There is also this idea among the MMO crowd that everybody should eventually reach max lvl and "endgame" content, something that is very contrary to 3e.

The lack of low lvl monsters on high level quests means many things that are useful against low lvl creatures are no longer useful. The addition of going up to lvl 30 (keep in mind that lvl 20 is basically demigod status in 3e) makes things so much worse.

The solution is to either bring back the variety of encounter difficulties, or make spells and abilities useful even at high levels.

Personally I think magic should be weaker than mundane, since it is much more versatile. Why use real armor if magic can work just as well after all. But magic should still be good enough to be useful.

Thus, I'd make spells scale accordingly. Mage armor might match the expected numbers of light armor with a ML equal to the CL you cast the spell for example.

Energy resistance and protection from energy are another couple of spells that really need this. DDO has expanded the DMG output a lot so those spells are already weak by the time you get them, but once you hit epic levels, protection from energy gets drained in one hit, and energy resistance makes little difference, 30 vs 300 isn't much of a difference.

Then take exhaustion, a mere -6 to stats. Someone has shown that a wizard can get their int score up to 120-140. 3e was designed for PCs to find it difficult to hit 30 when fully buffed, and even monsters would rarely get about the 50s, and nearly everything would be less than 18 or so, until higher levels which might get into the 20s, making a -6 significant, but now in DDO, a -6 is a flea bite. And Bull's strength? Doesn't even compare to items with +10 and insightful +6.

The numbers problem I discussed in the other thread is relevant here as well. The difference in numbers has changed a lot in DDO's growth, but the only bit that has touched spell numbers is the dmg curve has shifted from [CL]D6 to [CL]D6+3*SL, giving an exponential growth to what was once a linear growth (I know they called it quadratic wizard, but XD6 specifically is linear). This of course ties in to higher HP amounts, and thus has made once usable spells nearly pointless. Why bother with magic missile or even force missiles at epic lvl, when their dmg is so low as to be nearly negligible?

Frankly, they really just need to redo all the math. Do it like final fantasy did, where they have a big world plotline, a time of troubles, that leads up to a change in all the numbers to make them work better for long term play.

I'm not the expert on code, so I have no idea how doable it even is, but I think there are spell schools that are completely useless outside of 1 or 2 spells. The whole illusion school should be changed, as an example. Weird, Shadow magic, conjure shadows, Mirror Image and Phantasmal Force or a Mass version of Fear could all be great additions to illusion. Lots more ideas I'm sure.

Abjuration and Trasmutation need more than Stone to Flesh or Globe of Invulnerability. They need Mass versions, Polymorph, Mass Polymorph and maybe even a Wall of Force. For all that casters could be, and the versatility they hold, no one is an Abjurer or Transmuter (Passwall to open a pit, anyone?), and barely any true Illusionists.

You have Evokers, Necros and Enchanters. Even evokers could be better... I would love an EK Evoker that could throw up a Bigby's fist or imposing hand! Hell, we have guiding hands, so Bigby's already there! I wouldn't even care if they made some Bigbys Conjuration, Some Abjuration, and some Evocation, just to round it out.

Spells need a major pass and i think would be a great way to expand people into new roles of support or gameplay.

[TheAlicornSage]

I'm an abjurer. Admittedly I don't endgame content, but still, I'm an abjurer, I use the SLAs up to the stoneskin SLA and protection from energy and shield when I'm dual-wielding. I especially use them for my pet, hireling, and summons.

I think one should be careful about calling spells useless, especially as in some cases the spells are not in themselves useless but the numbers don't line up. For example, I don't use sleep because even when 8-9 lvls above the targets they don't fail their saves, sleep isn't useless as a spell, it's just their numbers are out of whack making a useful spell unusable.

I'd love new spells, but I'd rather they fix what they have first.

That said, spells to modify terrain won't work. They even have Acid Well, which in tabletop is a pit of acid, but in ddo they made it spray acid instead, because the engine can't handle making a pit.