Do spell components have a purpose in todays DDO

[Drfirewater79]

Hack n Slash Gaming here with a pretty serious question:

Do spell components really serve a purpose in todays DDO. With inventory space being such a big issue with many new and old players alike, what is the purpose of spell components?

The only arguments I can see are

1) That it causes people to take the spell component feat or enhancement.
In this case .. well that is one less feat or enhancement point you need to spend for inventory space.

2) its DnD and you had to do that in pen and paper.
There is a lot in this game where there is no connect to pen and paper so its not a good argument. That would be the good argument for removing Destinies and Enhancements so on and so forth

3) Its a money sync
Really ... really ... no its not and they capped the amount of money you can carry per character which suggests (unlike me) many people are floating in gold and plat so much so that a few thousand in ingredients every
few days does not a money sync make.

There are so many classes that are affected by the need for spell components but they really serve no purpose but to fill inventory space.

I would like to suggest that SSG remove all components from the game as well as any component related feats and enhancements and replace them with spell point reducers or feat spell point reducers or spell power enhancement instead. This could be equally useful for non casters with components like rangers and paladins as well by adding healing amp or positive healing power.

These are just a few ideas I had off the top of my head.

Please reply with your ideas .... If SSG removed components from the game ... what would you replace the feats and enhancements that remove components with?

[rabidfox]

From what I recall, it was a requirement from WotC to have them.
Would storage space be better off if we were allowed to just carry a spell foci (plus rare mats) using modern rules for components? Yes.
Is there likely a legal contract somewhere about it that might be an issue? Quite possibly stuff would have to be renegotiated to see if WotC would allow it at all.
Is there potential that the code's age would make changing things a royal pain with the risk of breaking stuff along the way or taking too many man hours? Also quite possible.
Would I like it? Sure.

[Drfirewater79]

From what I recall, it was a requirement from WotC to have them.
Would storage space be better off if we were allowed to just carry a spell foci (plus rare mats) using modern rules for components? Yes.
Is there likely a legal contract somewhere about it that might be an issue? Quite possibly stuff would have to be renegotiated to see if WotC would allow it at all.
Is there potential that the code's age would make changing things a royal pain with the risk of breaking stuff along the way or taking too many man hours? Also quite possible.
Would I like it? Sure.

I doubt there is any verbiage in a legal contract regarding individual aspects of the game that are not protected under license .. if so then we could not have any player races that are not specifically detailed in both look and name. If it was then they should have just done this game in instead of going free to play and started again from ground up. There is a lot in the game that does not fall under the WotC license because it doesn't exists in pen and paper. I have a lot of policy work in my job and while you would be surprised at legal contract wording when it comes to license use ... it would only include something like that if it was important to the brand that nothing be different. They squashed that in year one ... when they told us DDO is not Pen and Paper which is why we dont have monkey grip and other feats that were highly popular in 3.5 DnD despite the fact the game was based on 3.5 dnd.

I would be ok with spell component storage but the issue really becomes not the storage but the purpose. In the early game i could see it as a money sync like other games have ... but now its more of an annoyance for new players and frustration for vets.

Coding ... now that is my jam ... because not only do i have a degree in software engineering (specifically web app) but i am currently a project management assistant working directly with IT program coders and managing their workloads. It is true that often small aspects are tied to bigger things .. its often a sign that a coder did too much in their one page and did not follow good OOP (object oriented programing) basics. We know that it wouldn't cause a problem however in this case because they have several mechanics that control this aspect of the game currently which means if you have escue materials (bad spelling sorry) feat or the enhancement what it would do from a program perspective is simply skip the code requirement returning a 1 value. What i mean is that if you need 1 heart of hen to cast a spell ... then it would look something like this

If SpellLevel = 3
then
CheckForComponent
if CheckForComponent = 0
return ErrorMessage
else
CastSpell
end if

The CheckForComponent code would simply first check if the person has one of these component blockers or if the spell itself does not require components.

So if you want to do this all you need to do is change the code that sends the result back to always send back a 1 ... OR if you have good OOP you simply remove the code that calls for the component check.
since components are only associated with spells it should not create any errors.

You would be right however on this point ... IF .. components are not programed using OOP and are deeply tied to spell casting in other ways .. but if that was the case then omni spell components would not work and spells of similar levels that have other spell component requirements would also not function properly.


I think the only thing stopping them is they are too busy trying to do new stuff to worry about old stuff that isn't broken ... that is a fair comment but old stuff that isn't broken is what they are changing with destinies so .... hmmm bad argument i guess lol.

[rabidfox]

I doubt there is any verbiage in a legal contract regarding individual aspects of the game that are not protected under license .

We've got a lot of stuff that WotC pushed as requirements like the long timer on the key to estar; newer transport items don't have the long cooldown while the key is still 20x longer a cooldown (so obviously WotC laxed up on some stuff since MotU). But even if it's not specifically in legalize somewhere, if the general permissions were under the understanding that spell components need to be in the game then it'd be a bad idea to drop them without WotC's permission or risk annoying them in a way that could hurt licensing future content.

Coding ... now that is my jam
*snip*
You would be right however on this point ... IF .. components are not programed using OOP and are deeply tied to spell casting in other ways .. but if that was the case then omni spell components would not work and spells of similar levels that have other spell component requirements would also not function properly.

They could probably add an item that grants players the Eschew Materials feat (or just grant everyone that feat) or just sell omnidust for platinum. But I suspect if they were going to remove components that they'd want to remove all the old code linked to it to streamline the game and that's where I think things could always go sideways; weird halo effects off code changes seem to be the big issue with a lot of the old code and them trying to update it.

[Drfirewater79]

They could probably add an item that grants players the Eschew Materials feat (or just grant everyone that feat) or just sell omnidust for platinum. But I suspect if they were going to remove components that they'd want to remove all the old code linked to it to streamline the game and that's where I think things could always go sideways; weird halo effects off code changes seem to be the big issue with a lot of the old code and them trying to update it.

Yeah that is what i would do .. i would add it as an automatic feat at level 1 for all classes ... then if people want the PnP feel of components they can choose to run without it on .. and if they want to play a DnD based video game and not have to run out of the quest area to buy more components when they just bought 1000 of them yesterday .. they can just turn on the gifted feat.

it would solve both problems ..

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Hack n Slash Gaming here with a pretty serious question:

The problem is, that non-hack&slash games have died out.

EVERYTHING is nowadays hack&slash.

So, you want to have yet another game to become one with the Borg err become merely just another hack&slash game ? I ask, because that's so ... new. Innovative. Crearive. To have just another hack&slash game.

Or, maybe people don't want something new, innovative, creative, yes ?

[Drfirewater79]

The problem is, that non-hack&slash games have died out.

EVERYTHING is nowadays hack&slash.

So, you want to have yet another game to become one with the Borg err become merely just another hack&slash game ? I ask, because that's so ... new. Innovative. Crearive. To have just another hack&slash game.

Or, maybe people don't want something new, innovative, creative, yes ?

Sorry Hack n Slash Gaming is my twitch corporate name (going live end of september stay tuned in)

DDO is a hacknslash game, given you swing weapons rather than turn based or even trigger based like many MMOs. Its already a third party view version of diablo in fact if you could play the game top down it would look like a diablo clone to be honest. Having components or not does not change the genre of the game.

Components served a purpose in the early days of this game .. but now they are obsolete ... it acts more as an annoyance to new players then it does a call back to Pen and Paper. The majority of the people i know in game either played PnP back in the 80's-90's and haven't played since 3.5 or never played dnd at all and only like this game because its fantasy based and has a killer combat system compared to other MMOs.

I am not saying forget the license .. but i am saying that video games are not pen and paper games and if we want to see this game continue to grow maybe removing annoyances should be important.

I actually don't mind the changes to destines personally from what i have seen ... but its just an example of nerfing the existing players instead of bettering the game quality for new players. Another example would be the fact that they nerfed players by as much as 16 DC points (yes i believe it was needed to solve future power creep issues) but only nerfed the adds by 10 ... then called it balancing. 16 does not balance with 10.

Innovation is what you do to improve upon a product ... DnD has done it several times and given that some people prefer 1st or 2nd edition (i know i much prefer 3.5) when compared to 5th edition ... it continues to evolve bringing back aspects people like and removing aspects that disturb the player experience. I believe fully that components disturb the player experience.

I truly believe that components serve no purpose in this game except to fill inventory spots better used for augment/collectable/ingredient bags .. or alternative gear like different sets that you rotate for specific quests or role fulfillment needs.

[Seph1roth5]

Well it being a WoTC official-like thing doesn't make much sense anyways. In D&D don't you just get a spell component pouch and that has all the stuff you need? I only played Pathfinder, not much 3.5, but you didn't have to keep track of every single spell cast.

[kpak01]

its DnD and you had to do that in pen and paper.

Nope. Only the special/rare/expensive components (E.g., for Create Undead, Death Pact, Stoneskin). But none of the "generic" inexpensive components.

In D&D don't you just get a spell component pouch and that has all the stuff you need?

Exactly.

Usually, video games make changes to streamline some of the bookkeeping from pen-and-paper. This is the only case I know of where a video game, for some reason, decided to add extra annoying bookkeeping that was not in pen-and-paper, for no apparent reason. It like they introduced these components into DDO just to harass their players.

From what I recall, it was a requirement from WotC to have them.

I really doubt that, given that is a non-D&D, non-WoTC game mechanic DDO added.

[Drfirewater79]

[QUOTE=kpak01;6457909]Nope. Only the special/rare/expensive components (E.g., for Create Undead, Death Pact, Stoneskin). But none of the "generic" inexpensive components.

You misread my statement ... i was saying silly points people have been making and why they don't change my perspective on this.

i do like the idea of ONE (omni spell) ingredient that is purchasable in game for in game coin and can stack over 10k or a pouch that can hold 10k of each level spell component ... but i would rather just eliminate the system as it adds nothing of substance to the game.

some lack luster nostalgia ... but like others have said it would serve that with only one spell component

[blarhblarhblarh]

One purpose: to annoy players and make sure we know that DDO needs a better inventory system.

Why is this terrible thing still in DDO today???

Because the developers don´t care about quality of life changes. For example in house K there is an NPC in front of the bank called marek. If you speak with him your Von5 raid will be bugged. Why is the NPC there? why the NPC still have dialogue after 15 years???


What can we do about it? we can congratulate them for changing EDs that where actually working instead of fixing that are really grotesque design. I bet that in 1 day any programer could do at least a bag to store components and that EVERY player would pay big money for it. Is it ideal? no. Ideal would be to get rid of spell components. Would this 30 minute man power end the problem? yes. Will SSG do it???

They haven´t done it in 15 years and soon they will release some friends in the forum to defend the great spell component system.

[GeoffWatson]

It's so players occasionally have to buy Omnispell Dust from the store to finish a quest, so they have to occasionally buy more DDO points, for money.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Why is this terrible thing still in DDO today???

Further streamlining and dumbing down of a game ? Please, no.
There re already too many streamlined games out there. I very much do not want a game which behaves like every other game.

[Annex]

*remembers she needs to load up on spell components and does so*

There. With that out of the way...

Dunno. I could make arguments either way but tend to side with Mister Fassbauer on this one.

What I want to know is, what the heck are you people storing in your bags that takes up so much space that you even care about this?

We get something like 160 units of backpack space, 100 units of bank space, and 300 units of shared bank space. Every storage character gets another 160 backpack space and 100 bank space. Is this about Bound to Character Raid stuff? Are you people just cheapskates? What is really going on?

[Enoach]

I could get behind a system that reduces spell components. The system would need to consider enhancements and feats that currently remove the mundane to give it a value or replace with another feature.

As for the purpose, SSG does have a market for reduction of inventory via the Omnispell Dust, which substitutes for all standard components; and Omnispell Stone which substitutes for most special ones. These two items are even valuable to builds that have multiple classes of spell casting as they reduce the need of inventory as well as having to make sure you have the right component for the spell level and class it is being cast. I'm not sure what the market is for these myself. I've been collecting them and storing them thinking I really should do a life with these and not buy spell components.

As for implementing spell foci for mundane, I think there are many possibilities here. Here are a few off the top of my head.
1. Grant each caster a Ring or Trinket
2. Add an Augment (diamond) that grants spell foci. This would allow a caster to pick any augmentable item to make a foci
3. Add a Crafting Ritual to the stone of change

As for the comment on coding? I imagine that is not much of an issue since we have multiple abilities that eschew spell component materials. By adding the Foci option in, they don't need to remove the material requirements, but instead make it an either or concept. Either use the foci, components, enhancement or feat. Giving the player the choice to pick what is more valuable.

[Stoner81]

They serve no purpose other than to clog up precious inventory space and annoy the hell out of players.

Stoner81.

[cdbd3rd]

I am old-school, and have tried to support every issue that holds to our roots of being based on D&D. As DDO has moved further and further away from our roots over the years, the oomph to try holding on to them has waned. I don't type this easily, as I hate how little DDO resembles D&D any more.

The Powers have told us that expanding storage is problematic and also that it's impossible to create a Components bag that will function correctly. So... at this point I'd be okay with spell components going away to recover a few slots of storage on bunches of characters.

....

What I want to know is, what the heck are you people storing in your bags that takes up so much space that you even care about this?...

I logged onto my main, was gonna make a whole list of the stuff I have rat-packed. Would've taken an hour or more, but woulda been funny (maybe?). That's NOT counting the 1,184 things I have in the Crafting storage, so far.

I am CD, and... I'm a packrat.

[Annex]

I am old-school, and have tried to support every issue that holds to our roots of being based on D&D. As DDO has moved further and further away from our roots over the years, the oomph to try holding on to them has waned. I don't type this easily, as I hate how little DDO resembles D&D any more.

Hey, CD. This describes myself as well. I often think the developers make things way too easy for us but I am not a fan of survival games.

Game: You are out of water.
Player: Uh oh.
Game: You are out of water. You take 10 points of damage.
Player: No! It takes, like, 8 days to die of dehydration!
Game: You are out of water. You take 30 points of damage.
Player: Hey!
Game: You are out of water. You take 100 points of damage. You die. Your saved games were deleted using military grade data removal. Would you like to start a new game?
Player: Oh heck no! I'm gonna play DDO!

I logged onto my main, was gonna make a whole list of the stuff I have rat-packed. Would've taken an hour or more, but woulda been funny (maybe?). That's NOT counting the 1,184 things I have in the Crafting storage, so far.

I just looked in my personal bags. I have:

1) A completely useless magical d20.
2) Three large bags for ingredients, collectibles, and gems.
3) A huge hire folder.
4) Four pieces of swap equipment.
5) Three teleport items.
6) A Harper Pin.
7) Sixteen kinds of potion.
8) Thieves tools.
9) Seven spell components.
10) Eight weapons.
11) A Quori Forged Key that allows me access to the room where I can crash the server.
12) A Devotion 84 augment I have no place to slot.
13) A Threnel Ceremonial Blade that I may, some day, get around to upgrading.

So, that is 48 total items leaving me with 112 free spaces for junk. If I removed the dumb stuff, I would gain another 9 slots. I should really carry more absorption items but I've been saying that for 6 years.

How come you people have so much more stuff? What am I missing? What super secret awesome stuff are you people hiding from me?

[blarhblarhblarh]

Neither do tokens. Marek npc. And a lot of things that only exist to be annoying. For sure spell components should be abolished, not even a bag that could carry thousands of them would have any purpose.

The rule is simple: does it add any fun to the game? if the answer is no they should get rid of it ASAP in the quality of life changes.

[Antheal]

Replace all spell components with Omnispell Dust and have it available for in-game platinum.