Level Scaling (here me out)

[Rotewote]

I love this game dearly and have played it on and off since the level cap was 12 and tempest spine was endgame content. The only thing keeping this from being a main game that I play consistently with a group of friends is the fact that in order to play together we need to be at the same point in some reincarnation cycle or another, or dedicate ourselves to only being able to play those toons with each other on a given life. The only thing I want from this game is to be able to take a character and temporarily de-level it to a previous state of being so that I can paly with friends who are lower level or higher level at any given time. Based on how the LR system and the feat respect system work it seems that the game has the necessary information to know the state of a character at a given level. I would be perfectly fine having to take a set of heroic gear out of my bank and temporarily turn my epic level character into a level 5, just to conveniently play with friends who are at a lower level in a given TR cycle, without having to TR myself. I don't care if these quests offer me no xp or tangible benefit outside of perhaps loot, I just want to be able to play with friends in a convenient manner. I would basically anything to see this come to fruition and would happily return to this game to stay rather than just being around for a few weeks at a time when I can convince my group to all play at the same time.

[dredre9987]

I love this game dearly and have played it on and off since the level cap was 12 and tempest spine was endgame content. The only thing keeping this from being a main game that I play consistently with a group of friends is the fact that in order to play together we need to be at the same point in some reincarnation cycle or another, or dedicate ourselves to only being able to play those toons with each other on a given life. The only thing I want from this game is to be able to take a character and temporarily de-level it to a previous state of being so that I can paly with friends who are lower level or higher level at any given time. Based on how the LR system and the feat respect system work it seems that the game has the necessary information to know the state of a character at a given level. I would be perfectly fine having to take a set of heroic gear out of my bank and temporarily turn my epic level character into a level 5, just to conveniently play with friends who are at a lower level in a given TR cycle, without having to TR myself. I don't care if these quests offer me no xp or tangible benefit outside of perhaps loot, I just want to be able to play with friends in a convenient manner. I would basically anything to see this come to fruition and would happily return to this game to stay rather than just being around for a few weeks at a time when I can convince my group to all play at the same time.

Pretty sure this would be a nightmare to code with DDO's spaghetti code. Maybe see if gear could lock your level and disable anything ( skills, stats, feats and so on ) above it? God just thinking of everything that is dependant on level and when things were taken is crazy

[radule]

I love this game dearly and have played it on and off since the level cap was 12 and tempest spine was endgame content. The only thing keeping this from being a main game that I play consistently with a group of friends is the fact that in order to play together we need to be at the same point in some reincarnation cycle or another, or dedicate ourselves to only being able to play those toons with each other on a given life. The only thing I want from this game is to be able to take a character and temporarily de-level it to a previous state of being so that I can paly with friends who are lower level or higher level at any given time. Based on how the LR system and the feat respect system work it seems that the game has the necessary information to know the state of a character at a given level. I would be perfectly fine having to take a set of heroic gear out of my bank and temporarily turn my epic level character into a level 5, just to conveniently play with friends who are at a lower level in a given TR cycle, without having to TR myself. I don't care if these quests offer me no xp or tangible benefit outside of perhaps loot, I just want to be able to play with friends in a convenient manner. I would basically anything to see this come to fruition and would happily return to this game to stay rather than just being around for a few weeks at a time when I can convince my group to all play at the same time.

Why would you need to de-level your character?
Just make another one and keep it at lvl at which your group is currently.
If you are playing more frequently than the rest of the group, just play on another character.
Problem solved IMO

[mikarddo]

I very much agree with the problem presented.

With a low population, spread out over many levels and especially the repeated use of reincarnations unique to DDO playing regularly with friends is supported very badly.

The importance of first time bonusses only make this worse. Even if somewhat within level range grouping with friends is often somewhat discouraged by not wanting to rerun the same quests as that gives very little xp. XP pots only make this issue worse.

Unfortunately, its very hard to see a solution that is viable.

Shared past lives and/or reaper xp would go a long way though as that would make it much more realistic to only run certain characters when the friends are also on and simply run other characters when not. Still not a full solution for sure, and probably not a likely one to happen.

Doing the "multiple chars" without shared xp/PL works for some but for many its just not going to happen because it detracts from getting their main to be powerful in a game with umpteen very long grinds for power.

Further, if you have 4 friends that like to play together but log in at somewhat different times the "multiple chars" wont really work. Sometimes A and B log in, other times A, C and D, then B and C. Now try to keep characters ready for all combinations and its just not feasible. Then consider 6 friends... which would require something like 63 chars for each to fit avery combination of the 6 being online at the same time... So, not feasible.

Deleveling sounds nice on the surface but trying to figure out gear as well as enhancements etc might be too much to ask. So, "just make alts" isnt a viable solution for everyone (I would guess for most, but thats an unfounded guess except it fits most of the people I play with often).

[Rotewote]

There is no reasonable world with all the past lives, BTC gear, filigree, reaper experience, and everything else, where "just make another character" is an enjoyable solution, so much needless wasted time and effort from all parties involved so that I can still be playing a down-leveled character with my friends, but just a less optimal one with worse access to everything else.

> Pretty sure this would be a nightmare to code with DDO's spaghetti code. Maybe see if gear could lock your level and disable anything ( skills, stats, feats and so on ) above it? God just thinking of everything that is dependent on level and when things were taken is crazy

On this point, I'm a software engineer by trade and I agree that this would probably be a mess and a half to implement, but if by some twist of fate it's at all reasonable I would give anything to see it happen. Honestly I would be willing to sign an NDA for access to the codebase myself and be willing to work on attempting to make this real for no compensation. I want so badly to not feel that I or my friends are being punished for wanting to enjoy the game more.

[Rotewote]

I very much agree with the problem presented.

With a low population, spread out over many levels and especially the repeated use of reincarnations unique to DDO playing regularly with friends is supported very badly.

The importance of first time bonusses only make this worse. Even if somewhat within level range grouping with friends is often somewhat discouraged by not wanting to rerun the same quests as that gives very little xp. XP pots only make this issue worse.

Unfortunately, its very hard to see a solution that is viable.

Shared past lives and/or reaper xp would go a long way though as that would make it much more realistic to only run certain characters when the friends are also on and simply run other characters when not. Still not a full solution for sure, and probably not a likely one to happen.

Doing the "multiple chars" without shared xp/PL works for some but for many its just not going to happen because it detracts from getting their main to be powerful in a game with umpteen very long grinds for power.

Further, if you have 4 friends that like to play together but log in at somewhat different times the "multiple chars" wont really work. Sometimes A and B log in, other times A, C and D, then B and C. Now try to keep characters ready for all combinations and its just not feasible. Then consider 6 friends... which would require something like 63 chars for each to fit avery combination of the 6 being online at the same time... So, not feasible.

Deleveling sounds nice on the surface but trying to figure out gear as well as enhancements etc might be too much to ask. So, "just make alts" isnt a viable solution for everyone (I would guess for most, but thats an unfounded guess except it fits most of the people I play with often).

I mean I'm not asking them to figure out my gear or my enhancements, let me pay X plat, hell I'd even pay a small number of DDO points, to take an existing character to a previous level with the feats they had at that level, enhancements reset, gear removed etc, provide a special heart that can store the information about who were when you did this so you can undo this process. While in this state I'm fine if I can't earn xp, or Rxp, or anything.

[Xgya]

An easy solution to the issue of just how much there is to remember about levels is leaving it to the players.

Special store-bought item, lets a character Lesser Reincarnate but leave the Grove early. Probably costing about as much as a normal Lesser Heart.

So they have to restart from level 1, level back to the level they want to join friends at, and keep their previous XP total, which will more likely than not be above the XP cap of 2 levels -1 xp, so that issue solves itself.
It also allows you to follow your friends as they level along and move past the first quests you were helping them with without having to do the process all over again.

Once you're done, just take all your levels back one by one as you normally would, taking the feats you'd want as you normally would, and go back to the level your XP total says you should be able to.

It would have to cost as least as much as a Lesser Heart for that option to work, and would require some reprogramming of the trainers - as far as I know, only the one in the Grove can check which levels you previously took - but would definitely work with the least dev time possible.

[TheAlicornSage]

A feasible way to do multiple characters is to have one at each general tier of play and then never level that character past that, then, no matter what collection of friends come onm you can just use the character at the tier they are all at. Not perfect, but doable and without waiting on devs.

[mikarddo]

I mean I'm not asking them to figure out my gear or my enhancements, let me pay X plat, hell I'd even pay a small number of DDO points, to take an existing character to a previous level with the feats they had at that level, enhancements reset, gear removed etc, provide a special heart that can store the information about who were when you did this so you can undo this process. While in this state I'm fine if I can't earn xp, or Rxp, or anything.

You might be happy with that, but I for one sure would not. In that case you just could just alts scattered at every 3-4 levels and never level those. Given the ability to start as level 7 or 15 thats pretty easy. But that means zero progression while playing with those friends which isnt satisfactory as far as I am concerned.

A real solution needs to include being able to earn meaningful xp / past lives along the way or it will see little use.

[Rotewote]

A feasible way to do multiple characters is to have one at each general tier of play and then never level that character past that, then, no matter what collection of friends come onm you can just use the character at the tier they are all at. Not perfect, but doable and without waiting on devs.

Sure but then those characters wouldn't have access to my tomes, or past lives, or reaper points, or gear, of crafting skill levels, or favor unlocked enhancement trees which is part of the whole point it's not hard to see up alts you never level at 4ush levels apart but it would be both less fun and a less full experience than I would get doing the content on my main.

[TheAlicornSage]

Sure but then those characters wouldn't have access to my tomes, or past lives, or reaper points, or gear, of crafting skill levels, or favor unlocked enhancement trees which is part of the whole point it's not hard to see up alts you never level at 4ush levels apart but it would be both less fun and a less full experience than I would get doing the content on my main.

1, you would still have access to most of your gear and could still gain both gear for that level and guild xp.

2, this is intended as a solution that doesn't wait for the devs, so being less perfect than the devs doing something is an invalid arguement against it.

3, actually, if they properly scaled things by level, then the actual proper handling would be to normalize all values, so your jumbers would be simply scaled down, and nothing else need done. Though the best option is just to design the thing from the ground up for all players to be at similar scale regardless of personal progression, with advancement being additional versatility rather than simply growing bigger numbers, but that requires being designed from scratch so not available here.

[radule]

OP, do you know of any other MMO that has a feature you are asking for already implemented? I actually think that DDO implements this in a more proficient way than other MMOs, since you are able to "get on the same level as your friends" once you reincarnate/gain a few levels.

As far as I know, the thing you are asking for would be a revolutionary way of ingame character manipulation, and that is much simpler to implement while you are designing a system from the scratch, opposed to implementing it in a 15 year old (spaghetti code) game.

My2cents

[donblas]

There is no reasonable world with all the past lives, BTC gear, filigree, reaper experience, and everything else, where "just make another character" is an enjoyable solution, so much needless wasted time and effort from all parties involved so that I can still be playing a down-leveled character with my friends, but just a less optimal one with worse access to everything else.

.

I enjoy making characters - I have pretty much one on every level (49 toons over 30 levels but half of them are lvl 23-30 with a queue for reincarnation).

It's an enjoyable solution for me.

[donblas]

A feasible way to do multiple characters is to have one at each general tier of play and then never level that character past that, then, no matter what collection of friends come onm you can just use the character at the tier they are all at. Not perfect, but doable and without waiting on devs.

You can also have a conveyor belt where there's pretty much always a toon at any level from 1 to 30, but when a level 30 reincarnates then the lvl 1s level to 2, the 2s level to 3 etc.

[donblas]

Sure but then those characters wouldn't have access to my tomes, or past lives, or reaper points, or gear, of crafting skill levels, or favor unlocked enhancement trees which is part of the whole point it's not hard to see up alts you never level at 4ush levels apart but it would be both less fun and a less full experience than I would get doing the content on my main.

Obviously those toons would have to get their won tomes, and I must say that getting tomes in game for 49 toons isn't easy, especially high ones. While all my toons have at least+2 stat toms for every stat, and pretty much all of them have at least +3 stat tomes for every stat, Only 30 of their stats (less than one for each toon) have +5, +6, +7 or +8 tomes.

[Rotewote]

OP, do you know of any other MMO that has a feature you are asking for already implemented? I actually think that DDO implements this in a more proficient way than other MMOs, since you are able to "get on the same level as your friends" once you reincarnate/gain a few levels.

As far as I know, the thing you are asking for would be a revolutionary way of ingame character manipulation, and that is much simpler to implement while you are designing a system from the scratch, opposed to implementing it in a 15 year old (spaghetti code) game.

My2cents

Basically every successful modern mmo has a more nuanced level scaling or level sync system where you can play with your friends despite being higher level than them and the game just makes that work, I would also accept something like that in DDO but I consider my suggestion overall simpler since that kind of scaling requires a smooth and consistent character progression which ddos multi-class system (amoung other things) doesn't really allow for.

[Anuulified]

I think level syc is a grand idea, so long as it doesn't become mandatory as many MMOs have done. If I want to go farm a level 10 quest at level 30 for speed runs, I don't want the game reducing me to level 10.

[TheAlicornSage]

I think level syc is a grand idea, so long as it doesn't become mandatory as many MMOs have done. If I want to go farm a level 10 quest at level 30 for speed runs, I don't want the game reducing me to level 10.

Definitely, I occasionally try to play Swtor for the story (at 10-15 fps, except for the cutscenes, it's not enjoyable gameplay), and spend nearly the whole time lvl capped, and it's frustrating especially as I minimize the combat whenever possible, so performing at less than full capacity is bad.

Frankly, I'd just the lvl scaling to the party rather than quests. And truthfully, you can even go in reverse, letting the lower lvl PCs get a stat boost up to the lvl of the highest lvl player.